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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-10-21 18:18:02 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
I rely on context clues, as with eye, aye and I or too,
two, and to. After all isn't that what this is all about?

:)

--Star

--- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> Shavians,
>
> How do you handle heterographic homophones
> in Shavian?
>
> Do you do it any differently than any other
> phonemic notation?
>
> TO EN Spanglish ALC
> ---------- ---- --------- ------
> tide/tied = tYd, taid tied
> tear/tier = tEr, tier teer
> tenner/tenor = tenar, tenner, tener
> worn/warn worn worn worn
> war/wore wor wor wor
> wire wYr wair wier
> choir/aquire kwYr kwair akwair kwier/aqier
> wood/would wvd wvd wuud
> know/no nO no kno/no
>
> homographic heterophones
> wound wound/wuund
>
> REF:
> http://www.unifon.org/homophones.html
> JSSS: 3 articles on heterographs by Chris Upward
> http://www.spellingsociety.org
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> =====
>
> To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
> send a blank email to saundspel-subscribe@...
>
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From: rubik67
Date: 2002-10-21 22:54:34 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@y..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Rubik
> You picked a funny (strange) example. (not LOL funny)
> In general, I would agree with you, but "to" is a special case.
> The Shaw letter "tot" is the abbreviation for "to".
> What is the convention for "two" and "too". Do we spell those words
> out in full. (tot + ooze) Or do we use the single letter
abbreviation
> for them too.
> I haven't seen this spelled out :) anywhere.
> Regards, Paul V.

Yes, I realised this a few minutes after posting the message. In
Androcles, Too and Two are indeed spelled out in full (tot+ooze)
instead of being spelled as to would be (tot). L8r.




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From: Scott Harrison
Date: 2002-10-24 14:39:20 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
On Monday, October 21, 2002, at 05:53 , rubik67 wrote:

> --- In shavian@y..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>> Hi Rubik
>> You picked a funny (strange) example. (not LOL funny)
>> In general, I would agree with you, but "to" is a special case.
>> The Shaw letter "tot" is the abbreviation for "to".
>> What is the convention for "two" and "too". Do we spell those words
>> out in full. (tot + ooze) Or do we use the single letter
> abbreviation
>> for them too.
>> I haven't seen this spelled out :) anywhere.
>> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Yes, I realised this a few minutes after posting the message. In
> Androcles, Too and Two are indeed spelled out in full (tot+ooze)
> instead of being spelled as to would be (tot). L8r.
>
>
In my work I differentiate between TO which gets the shorthand of "tot"
and TWO and TOO which both are equivalent of "tot ooze" and I do this
because it seems like the thing to do based on the four convenience
words.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-25 19:31:59 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
Hi Everyone
Has any done any work to minimize homonyms in the Shaw Alphabet?
It came up in Shaw Spelling of (to/too/two).
And it comes ups in a lot of other common English words. (knight,
night, knot, not, won, one)
The to's can be spelled differently only because Tot is an
abbreviation for "to", and "two" can be written as 2.
Normally, there is no differentiation unless the one of the homonyms
is a name and the namer dot comes into play.
I am thinking, that we might want to introduce another symbol, to
indicate the Shaw word is the least common of two or more homonyms,
or possibly a foreign word altogether with the same pronunciation as
a common English word. For sake of argument, let's use the asterisk.
So the word knight in Shaw letters would be preceded with an *.
I know that for good Shaw writing, many people already try to use a
less confusing synonym rather than the least common member of a
homonym pair, but sometimes it is difficult to find a good synonym.
Anybody thinking along the same lines?

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Can we get rid of the Roman convention of spelling out all
numbers less than 13, and just use numbers (digits) whenever?
I think this convention existed simply because lower case L and 1
were not always easily distinguished (No differentiation in Roman
Letters and Digits)
___________________attached_____________________________________

--- In shavian@y..., Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> Hi Steve
> When I transliterate all these word pairs into the Shavian
Alphabet,
> they all have the same spelling with the exception of tier/tear.
> I would spell tear as Tot Ear
> and tier as Tot Eat Array
> All the other pairs sound the same and since Shavian is phonetic,
homonyms
> of any kind come out the same.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> _______________Regard _______________________
> At 08:41 PM 10/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Shavians,
> >
> >How do you handle heterographic homophones
> >in Shavian?
> >
> >Do you do it any differently than any other
> >phonemic notation?
> >
> >TO EN Spanglish ALC
> >---------- ---- --------- ------
> >tide/tied = tYd, taid tied
> >tear/tier = tEr, tier teer
> >tenner/tenor = tenar, tenner, tener
> >worn/warn worn worn worn
> >war/wore wor wor wor
> >wire wYr wair wier
> >choir/aquire kwYr kwair akwair kwier/aqier
> >wood/would wvd wvd wuud
> >know/no nO no kno/no
> >
> >homographic heterophones
> >wound wound/wuund
> >
> >REF:
> >http://www.unifon.org/homophones.html
> >JSSS: 3 articles on heterographs by Chris Upward
> >http://www.spellingsociety.org
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >
> >To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
> >send a blank email to saundspel-subscribe@y...
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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From: Philip Newton
Date: 2002-10-25 19:52:27 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
On 25 Oct 02, at 18:05, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> I am thinking, that we might want to introduce another symbol, to
> indicate the Shaw word is the least common of two or more homonyms,
> or possibly a foreign word altogether with the same pronunciation as
> a common English word.

But then you have to be fluent in TO to use Shavian, which isn't one of
the goals. (Unless you also advocate using this symbol to differentiate
homonyms which are spelled the same in TO, such as iron "metal" and
iron "household implement", or lie "tell an untruth" and lie "remain
horizontal", or set "to assign a meaning to something" and set "to
place something somewhere" and set "to specify a date for an event" and
set "to adjust a clock to show the correct time" ... you get the idea.)

I don't think that's such a good idea. If it's pronounced the same, it
should be spelled the same, with exceptions made only for very common
words such as "to" and "the" in the basic proposal. After all, we don't
make a difference when speaking, either.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>


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From: Robert McBroom
Date: 2002-10-25 23:06:07 #
Subject: [shavian] please check/correct your address book.

Toggle Shavian
Dear Everyone:

Some of Onteora's correspondents may still be using MAYO@ULSTER.NET
to contact us.

Please check your email address book and be sure that you are using
INFO@ONTEORA.COM to contact us.

The MAYO address will be closed as of today.

Thanks
--
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233


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From: Bob Schmertz
Date: 2002-10-26 20:47:25 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
On Fri, 2002-10-25 at 14:39, Philip Newton wrote:
> On 25 Oct 02, at 18:05, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > I am thinking, that we might want to introduce another symbol, to
> > indicate the Shaw word is the least common of two or more homonyms,
> > or possibly a foreign word altogether with the same pronunciation as
> > a common English word.
>
> But then you have to be fluent in TO to use Shavian, which isn't one of
> the goals. (Unless you also advocate using this symbol to differentiate
> homonyms which are spelled the same in TO, such as iron "metal" and
> iron "household implement", or lie "tell an untruth" and lie "remain
> horizontal", or set "to assign a meaning to something" and set "to
> place something somewhere" and set "to specify a date for an event" and
> set "to adjust a clock to show the correct time" ... you get the idea.)
>
> I don't think that's such a good idea. If it's pronounced the same, it
> should be spelled the same, with exceptions made only for very common
> words such as "to" and "the" in the basic proposal. After all, we don't
> make a difference when speaking, either.
>

Actually, I don't know if that's quite true, at least in the case of
"tM" (hey, this *is* the Shavian list :-)) When I first thought about
what you were saying, it occurred to me that there are at least five
completely unrelated meanings of the word "tM": a preposition, an
infinitive marker (both "to"), "excessively", "also" (both "too",
although a remote connection seems possible), and 2. So one approach
would be to come up with five different spellings, something which is
sure to become unmanageable. (BTW, I don't entirely agree with your
example of "set"; most of them seem to embody the same idea of fixing
something to something, not that there aren't other uses of "set" that
are much further removed).

But as I thought about it, it occurred to me there might actually be a
reason that "to" is spelled the same as "to", and "too" is spelled the
same as "too": length/stress. We tend to give the "too's" much
stronger weight and longer length for reasons that make sense: they have
a more significant impact on the meaning of the sentence. The
difference between "It's hot" and "It's too hot" is a semantic one; the
difference between "I want to eat" and "I want eat" is that the latter
is grammatically incorrect, but would still be understood the same as
the former. My non-native-speaker friend often fails to give the
correct emphasis: he'll say "it's t'big", and it sounds really strange
and somewhat hard to understand (less so for me because I'm familiar
with his language patterns), so I have to tell him to give the words
"too" and "big" equal emphasis.

I guess my long-winded treatise here doesn't really address the issue of
hinting for the lesser-used of two homophones directly, but it's food
for thought about what the usefulness/logicalness(?) of making some
spelling distinctions among words which are not as homophonic as we
think.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-10-27 03:14:52 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: heterographic homophones

Toggle Shavian
Let me give you this american example:

You are driving in your car and you see a sign that says
"drive thru"

Thru is equivalent to through, but also sounds like threw,
in other words, heterographic homonyms, as you called
them...
But here's the rub: You know from the context that thru in
that sense means through. Why should we make shavian any
more complex than roman spellings?

--Star


--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone
> Has any done any work to minimize homonyms in the Shaw
> Alphabet?
> It came up in Shaw Spelling of (to/too/two).
> And it comes ups in a lot of other common English words.
> (knight,
> night, knot, not, won, one)
> The to's can be spelled differently only because Tot is
> an
> abbreviation for "to", and "two" can be written as 2.
> Normally, there is no differentiation unless the one of
> the homonyms
> is a name and the namer dot comes into play.
> I am thinking, that we might want to introduce another
> symbol, to
> indicate the Shaw word is the least common of two or more
> homonyms,
> or possibly a foreign word altogether with the same
> pronunciation as
> a common English word. For sake of argument, let's use
> the asterisk.
> So the word knight in Shaw letters would be preceded with
> an *.
> I know that for good Shaw writing, many people already
> try to use a
> less confusing synonym rather than the least common
> member of a
> homonym pair, but sometimes it is difficult to find a
> good synonym.
> Anybody thinking along the same lines?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. Can we get rid of the Roman convention of spelling
> out all
> numbers less than 13, and just use numbers (digits)
> whenever?
> I think this convention existed simply because lower case
> L and 1
> were not always easily distinguished (No differentiation
> in Roman
> Letters and Digits)
>
___________________attached_____________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@y..., Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> <pvandenbrink@s...>
> wrote:
> > Hi Steve
> > When I transliterate all these word pairs into the
> Shavian
> Alphabet,
> > they all have the same spelling with the exception of
> tier/tear.
> > I would spell tear as Tot Ear
> > and tier as Tot Eat Array
> > All the other pairs sound the same and since Shavian is
> phonetic,
> homonyms
> > of any kind come out the same.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > _______________Regard _______________________
> > At 08:41 PM 10/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Shavians,
> > >
> > >How do you handle heterographic homophones
> > >in Shavian?
> > >
> > >Do you do it any differently than any other
> > >phonemic notation?
> > >
> > >TO EN Spanglish ALC
> > >---------- ---- --------- ------
> > >tide/tied = tYd, taid tied
> > >tear/tier = tEr, tier teer
> > >tenner/tenor = tenar, tenner, tener
> > >worn/warn worn worn worn
> > >war/wore wor wor wor
> > >wire wYr wair wier
> > >choir/aquire kwYr kwair akwair kwier/aqier
> > >wood/would wvd wvd wuud
> > >know/no nO no kno/no
> > >
> > >homographic heterophones
> > >wound wound/wuund
> > >
> > >REF:
> > >http://www.unifon.org/homophones.html
> > >JSSS: 3 articles on heterographs by Chris Upward
> > >http://www.spellingsociety.org
> > >
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=====
> > >
> > >To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
> > >send a blank email to saundspel-subscribe@y...
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> > >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-28 16:41:16 #
Subject: [shavian] Heterographic homophones?

Toggle Shavian
Hi Philip, Bob and Star

After looking at your comments, you have persuaded me, that nice as
it would be to distinguish homonyms in Shavian, at least as well as
TO, it is incompatible with our vision of the Shaw Alphabet as a
stand-alone, independant alphabet for English.
We can't assume that a reader of Shavian, possesses the ability to
spell in TO. The whole point of knowing the Shavian Alphabet is to
the eliminate the need for an English reader/writer to know ho to
spell in TO.
If she can hear it, she can read it.
If he can speak it, he can write it.
We can even write a computer to transliterate back to TO, if
required. Let the computer do the work.
And if the computer can't figure out the correct TO spelling from
context, it can prompt the reader with a menu deliniating all his
possible choices.
I understand, poets occassionally even use a word in such a way as to
evoke both its meanings.
So all in all, I suspect we can't rationalize homonyms out of the
language.
As Bob pointed out the current homonyms for "to" are rooted in
different gramatical classes of words, that are have different spots
in the sentence and so are stressed differently. Sounds different?

Surprisingly, Language evolution seems to cycles back and forth
between simplifying pronunciation on one hand, but on the other hand
expanding the vocabulary by including variant pronunciations as new
loan words.
In this flux, I suspect a proscriptive approach will not work.

Regards and appreciation to all concerned.
Paul V.

P.S. Philip, I don't preclude having a written English language,
where it is easier to make complicated verbal distinction, and there
is a larger recognizable word stock, by retaining historical
pronunciation/spelling and archaic words, not normally spoken.
In much the same sense, that until the 17th century, people found it
easier to discuss scientific and philosophic topics in Latin,
I suspect most people will still wish to use the dry old British
flavoured English for some literary purpose or the other.
But nowadays, we can have our cake and eat it too.
We can write in whatever alphabet suits our needs, and have the
computer switch it back and forth between Shaw and TO with the touch
of a toggle key.

___________________attached_________________________________________

--- In shavian@y..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...> wrote:
> On 25 Oct 02, at 18:05, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > I am thinking, that we might want to introduce another symbol, to
> > indicate the Shaw word is the least common of two or more
homonyms,
> > or possibly a foreign word altogether with the same pronunciation
as
> > a common English word.
>
> But then you have to be fluent in TO to use Shavian, which isn't
one of
> the goals. (Unless you also advocate using this symbol to
differentiate
> homonyms which are spelled the same in TO, such as iron "metal" and
> iron "household implement", or lie "tell an untruth" and
lie "remain
> horizontal", or set "to assign a meaning to something" and set "to
> place something somewhere" and set "to specify a date for an event"
and
> set "to adjust a clock to show the correct time" ... you get the
idea.)
>
> I don't think that's such a good idea. If it's pronounced the same,
it
> should be spelled the same, with exceptions made only for very
common
> words such as "to" and "the" in the basic proposal. After all, we
don't
> make a difference when speaking, either.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>



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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-11-19 18:13:51 #
Subject: [shavian] Revising Shaw Alphabet - Questions?

Toggle Shavian
Hi Everyone

Some questions were posted at my revised Shaw Alphabet Site
at www.shawalphabet.com.
As it is not practical to respond to those questions at
www,shawalphabet.com (more development is required)
I have been posting the questions with my answers ah
Hugh Birkenhead's Ikon Board at www.shavian.org
Just go to www.shavian.org
Click on NEW Hugh Birkenhead's Ikon Board
Click on General Chat
Click on topic "Questions about Revising Shaw Alphabet"
Your questions and the answers should be there.

Feel free to leave Questions on Hugh's Ikon board directly.
I will try to respond promptly.

Regards, Paul V.


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