Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: Scott Harrison
Date: 2000-09-25 19:26:14 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
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In a message from "Daniel G. Szczurek" <twojbrat@...>
dated Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:05:44 -0700, my mailer made me see:
->
-> Do you have a glottal stop in both slow and normal speech, Scott? For many
-> Americans (including me) there is a glottal stop in careful speech, but it
-> turns into a "w" glide in faster, normal speed speech.
-> Dr. Daniel Szczurek
->
I have been attempting to analyze what I say and it seems to be that there really is no difference between fast and slow speech. I have no /w/ sound in drawing. Now don't get me started on drawer (in both senses of someone who draws and the shelf-like thing in a table), bottle, or a bunch of other words. :-)
The best way to see how I choose to pronounce words is to look at my Shavian.
--
Scott Harrison
From: Philip Newton
Date: 2000-09-26 06:09:23 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] On the subject of different pronunciations.
Toggle Shavian
On 20 Sep 00, at 23:20, A.M.Callaway wrote:
> The differing pronunciation problem seems to me to be almost exclusively
> about vowels. The consonants seem to be universally pronounced the same.
> (except in the case of the silent/non-silent r)
There's also that many Americans' T is pronounced nearly like a D
("latter" and "ladder" sound the same or similar). However, I don't
remember seeing this be the cause of misspellings. It's probably not a
problem in Shavian (at the moment) since people are aware of the Roman
spellings of those words. (However, people who grow up knowing only
Shavian script would have to learn the distinction if their dialect
really merges those sounds.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
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From: YDerwydd@...
Date: 2000-09-26 07:44:28 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] On the subject of different pronunciations.
Toggle Shavian
In a message dated 9/25/00 9:10:23 PM, philip.newton@... writes:
<< There's also that many Americans' T is pronounced nearly like a D
("latter" and "ladder" sound the same or similar). >>
I'm an American, and "latter" and "ladder" sound quite different to me. The
"a" in latter is a diphthon (like "ay" in day). The "a" in ladder isn't.
Also, the "t" sound in my "latter" is clearly not a "d'" but rather a "t."
Bill
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From: Andy Callaway
Date: 2000-09-26 13:50:56 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
Daniel (And all)
I have noticed subtle changes in speech. If you listen to a recording of
someone 20 or 30 years ago, while it's still the same English we would speak
today, there is something subtley different about the speech which /dates/
it. Something about the inflection more than the pronunciation, I think.
This is more noticable with someone familiar.
Incidentally, this is a response to the Daniel's long message about
pronunciation in St. Louis etc, which my mail reader seems to have dropped
off, or included as an attachment or something.
>From: "Daniel G. Szczurek" <twojbrat@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:43:27 -0700
>
- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway -------------
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia -----
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -
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From: Andy Callaway
Date: 2000-09-26 14:00:48 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
I say fir as /fer/. In fact, when I was a child, before I ever saw it
written down, I thought they were fur trees...
>From: Stuart Thiessen <sthiessen@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:08:59 -0500
>
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From: Andy Callaway
Date: 2000-09-26 14:01:17 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
I say fir as /fer/. In fact, when I was a child, before I ever saw it
written down, I thought they were fur trees...
>From: Stuart Thiessen <sthiessen@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:08:59 -0500
>
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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 2000-09-27 02:37:03 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
Me, too. Upper Midwestern American English Dan.
----------
>From: "Andy Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: TueThurSepJun 2629, 2000200029,21:01
>
> I say fir as /fer/. In fact, when I was a child, before I ever saw it
> written down, I thought they were fur trees...
>
>
>>From: Stuart Thiessen <sthiessen@...>
>>Reply-To: shavian@...
>>To: shavian@...
>>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:08:59 -0500
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
>
>
>
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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 2000-09-27 02:53:17 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
Toggle Shavian
Dear Andy,
Yes, that is a way we use of tracing language change statistically. It
appears that:
1) A person's pronunciation becomes "fixed" between the ages of 13 and 16;
2) A person who has resided in a community for more than 3 years (I use 5
years to be safe) speaks like his/her agemates rather than like his/her
parents.
Because of this, if you get a family whose members have resided in one
area for 4 or 5 generations, when you describe the changes in speech among
the members, you are describing the changes in speech (pronunciation) for
the area in which they reside.
It's complicated, and we hope that speech analysis by computers will
help in some way. Since vowels exist along a continuum rather than as
absolutes, it's been tough even telling the computer what to look for now. I
am no longer at the heart of Statistical Dialectology, so I haven't kept up
to date on this. But we know phonetics are constantly changing.
One of the other things we look for is spelling mistakes and alternate
spellings. When people don't know how to spell a word in Conventional
Spelling, they often spell it like a word they think it rhymes with.
Historical linguists spend a lot of time reading diaries, letters, etc. to
see what kinds of ways people spell "mistakenly," and looking at what rhymes
with what, when and where.
Inflection is really, really hard to study at present because of the
lack of long speech samples from earlier periods. Do you think that, for
example, the intonation of your questions differs from that of other English
speakers? from that of other people in different parts of Australia?
Linguistics gives a basis for examining questions of spelling and
influences the choice of "standard" spellings for a language. As a person
who writes down unwritten languages, I have to choose some sort of standard
spelling. The deviations help me adjust the spelling. Deviations are always
good grist for the linguist.
Dr. Daniel
----------
>From: "Andy Callaway" <acal@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: TueThurSepJun 2629, 2000200029,20:50
>
>
> Daniel (And all)
>
> I have noticed subtle changes in speech. If you listen to a recording of
> someone 20 or 30 years ago, while it's still the same English we would speak
> today, there is something subtley different about the speech which /dates/
> it. Something about the inflection more than the pronunciation, I think.
> This is more noticable with someone familiar.
>
> Incidentally, this is a response to the Daniel's long message about
> pronunciation in St. Louis etc, which my mail reader seems to have dropped
> off, or included as an attachment or something.
>
>
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From: Daniel G. Szczurek
Date: 2000-09-27 06:08:21 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] On the subject of different pronunciations.
Toggle Shavian
About the vowel difference mentioned,
Isn't that a difference between "later" and "latter?" I have the same
vowel in "latter" and "ladder," but I think the consonants in the middle are
different, especially the slower I talk.
Daniel
----------
>From: YDerwydd@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] On the subject of different pronunciations.
>Date: MonThurSepJun 2529, 2000200029,23:44
>
>
> In a message dated 9/25/00 9:10:23 PM, philip.newton@... writes:
>
> << There's also that many Americans' T is pronounced nearly like a D
> ("latter" and "ladder" sound the same or similar). >>
>
> I'm an American, and "latter" and "ladder" sound quite different to me. The
> "a" in latter is a diphthon (like "ay" in day). The "a" in ladder isn't.
> Also, the "t" sound in my "latter" is clearly not a "d'" but rather a "t."
>
> Bill
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From: Hal Fulton
Date: 2000-09-27 19:54:45 #
Subject: [shavian] H and Y
Toggle Shavian
One thing that has puzzled me is the tendency for some people
(in dialects I hardly ever run across) to drop an H (as though
they considered it silent) and then, apparently feeling the
need for a consonant, tack on a Y! Actually this in cases where
there may be the ghost of a Y anyhow...
The only case I can think of now is my calculus professor who
was from somewhere in the northeastern US, I think. He said
the word "human" as "yuman" (always making me think "Yuman,"
as in a resident of Yuma, Arizona, if they call themselves
that).
We discussed dialect sometimes, and I think only once
he perhaps got a little ticked off. I think perhaps he
argued the h was silent, and I asked him why didn't he say
"uman" then? (I think I perhaps put a glottal stop at the
front of the word.) And he said, "Because I don't speak French!"
Of course, it can be argued that the people who pronounce the
h are really saying "hyuman" with a y consonant sneaking in. But
I don't think of it that way.
The vowel is a little problematic, too... I pronounce "human" as
"hewman" roughly, and "hooman" would sound ridiculous to me...
but "Yuman" I could pronounce as "yewman" or "yooman" and tell
little difference... more fodder for the argument of there being
a y in there, maybe.
I think one reason I used to identify dialectal differences with
lazy ears, lazy tongues, and so on, was that there was so much
of that where I grew up. My parents were well-educated, but the
surrounding area was pretty rural and uneducated. I heard a LOT
of interesting things growing up.
In my mother's dialect, somewhat different from mine, "sh" is
not followed by a consonant. She has occasionally stumbled over
words like schnauser or Schweitzer, but most of the time she
blissfully says snauser or Sweitzer. Yet her dialect is still
not nearly as weird to me as the neighbors'... :)
This reminds me of the quaint passage in the Old Testament, where
a neighboring tribe could not pronounce "shibboleth" but said
"sibboleth" instead... this was the standard way of recognizing
spies and enemies - ask him for the password, and if he says
"sibboleth," you kill him. (Now THAT's prescriptive!)
Hal
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