Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

[F'm Jast gOiN t rFt anaHD mesiJ in /SEvian miDli bikoz nO wan hAz dan sO fP kwFt a wFl (agen). nOt F'm stil trFiN t mis Qt HOz fP kAriktDz, Jast t sI if wot F sE kAn stil bI ritn wiH nO siDias leJabiliti problamz... sO fR F'm not misiN HOz kAriktDz At Yl, bat dM tel mI if V hAv eni siDias abJekSnz abQt mF misiN Hem Qt.]

sO - wot dM H /ameriknz hiD TiNk abQt H karnt stEt v H prezidanSl ilekSnz? wI in /iNgland R probabli not getiN H sEm infDmESn Az V gFz OvD HX R, n F woz wandDiN wot pIpl OvD HX R TiNkiN rFt nQ.

/hV

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frum wat F hC gOiN on DQnd mI it sImz lFk mOst pIpl hC dOnt rIlI giv a dRn wO winz aZ lYN aZ wI nO wic v H tO Jxks wI wil hAv t pUt up wiT fP H nekst fP jCz. H Jenxil konsensus in mE litl kPrnx v H kuntrI iz HAt nIHx wun v Hem iz anI gUd, but in H lYN run H kuntrI pritI muc runz itself anIwE, nO mAtx hO iz in H wFt hQs. F dOn't HiNk a lot uv pIpl kX, bIkuz F dOnt HiNk wI hAd anI gUd cqsiz on H bAlot anIwE.

Az it iz F'v sIn prezidents kum n prezidents gO, n nO prezident hAz evx mEd a difxens wun wE P H oHx in mE dE t dE lFf. wI /amXiknz R a fikil lot. if wI dOnt lFk wut H prezident duz wIl Just tYs him Qt nekst elekSun.

-gXI

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: [shavian] Change of topic...

[F'm Jast gOiN t rFt anaHD mesiJ in /SEvian miDli bikoz nO wan hAz dan sO fP kwFt a wFl (agen). nOt F'm stil trFiN t mis Qt HOz fP kAriktDz, Jast t sI if wot F sE kAn stil bI ritn wiH nO siDias leJabiliti problamz... sO fR F'm not misiN HOz kAriktDz At Yl, bat dM tel mI if V hAv eni siDias abJekSnz abQt mF misiN Hem Qt.]

sO - wot dM H /ameriknz hiD TiNk abQt H karnt stEt v H prezidanSl ilekSnz? wI in /iNgland R probabli not getiN H sEm infDmESn Az V gFz OvD HX R, n F woz wandDiN wot pIpl OvD HX R TiNkiN rFt nQ.

/hV


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Here's some humor, forgive me if you've seen it before. BTW, I am an American, and I'm not trying to affect a British accent in this, but I do use Read's orthography as recommended in the Quickscript Manual.

You'll need to download the Jerome font to see the middle portion properly.

Note to Gary, You might want to use YEW-ARRAY or YEA-ARRAY to render 'your'. It's what Read recommends, most Americans don't say "yore." Thanks. jD program is great.

nOtis v rivOkESn v indipendans

t H sitisanz v H /VFtd /stEts v /amXrika, in H lFt v jP
fEljR t elekt a /prezidant v H USA n Has t guvxn Vrselvz, wI
hIrbF giv nOtis v H rivOkeSn v jP indipendeans, ifektiv tadE.
hx /sovDan /mAjesti /kwIn /elizabeT II wil rizVm monRkWl dMtiz Ovx
Yl /stEts, OvD n uHx tXritOriz. eksept /Vty, wic SI daz
not fAnsi.
jP nM /prFm /ministD (H Rt.. Hon.. /tOni /blXr, MP fP H 97.85% v V
hM hAv antil nQ ben anawXr HAt HX iz a wxld QtsFd jP bPdDz)
wil apqnt a /ministD fP /amXrika wiTQt H nId fP fDHD elekSnz.
kongres n H /senat wil bI disbandd. a kwescnXr wil bI
sirkVlEtd nekst jC t ditDmin weHx ani v V nOtist.
t Ed in H trAnziSn t a tM /krQn /dipenansi, H folownN
rMlz R intrOdVst wiH wiT ifekt:

1. V SUd lUk up "rivOkeSn" in H /oksfrd /INliS /dikSnXi. Hen
lUk up ""alVnam"". cek H pronansiEsn gFd.
V wil bI amEzd At Just hQ roNli V hAv ben pronQnsN it.
jenDuli, V SUd rEz jP vOkAbVlXri t akseptabl levlz. lUk up
"vOkAbVlXri". vzN H sEm twanti-sevan wDdz intDspDst wiH filD
nqzz suc Az "lFk" n "V nO" iz An akseptabl n inefiSnt fPm
v kmVnikEsn. lUk up "intDspDst."

2. HX iz nO suc TiN Az "us /INliS". wI wil let /mFkrosoft nO on
jP bihAf.

3. V SUd lDn t distiNgwiS H /INliS n /YstEljan aksents. it
rWli izn't HAt hRd.

4. /holiwUd wil bI rikwFDd akEZnali t cAst /INliS aktDz Az H
gUd gFz.

5. V SUd rIlDn jP DiJinl nASnl AnTm, "/god /sEv H /kwIn,"
but Onli aftx fUli kXriiN Qt tAsk 1. wI wUd not wynt V t get
knfVzd n giv up hAf wE trM.

6. V SUd stop plEiN /amerikan "fUtbYl." HX iz Onli wun kFnd v
fUtbYl. wot V rifD t Az /amerikan "fUtbYl" iz not a vXi gUd gEm.
H 2.15% v V hM R awX HAt HX iz a wxld QtsFd jP bPdDz
mE hAv nOtist HAt nO wun els plEz /amerikan "fUtbYl." V wil nO
lYNgx bI alQd t plE it, n SUd insted plE propD fUtbYl.
iniSali, it wUd bI best if V plEd wiH H gDlz. it iz a difikalt
gEm.
HOz v V brEv enuf wil, in tFm, bI alQd t plE ragbi (wic
iz similD t /amerikan "fUtbYl," but daz not involv stopN fP a rest
evri twanti sekants P wXN fUl /kevlR bodi aRmD lFk nAnsiz). wI
R hOpN t get tMgeHx At lIst a us ragbi sevnz sFd bF 2005.

7. V SUd diklX wP on /kebek n /frAns, vzN nVklC wepanz if
HE giv V ani merde. H 97.85% v V hM wx not awX HAt HX iz
a wxld QtsFd jP bPdDz SUd kqnt Vrselvz lucky. H /raSnz
hAv nevx rWli ben H bAd gFz. n bF H wE, "merde" iz /frenc fP S*t"

8. /JulF4T iz nO lYNgx a pablik holidE. /novembD 8T wil bI a nM
nASnl holidE, but Onli in /INlnd. it wil bI kYld "/indisiZn dE."

9. Yl /amerikan kRz R hIrbF bAnd. HE R merde n it iz fP jP
On gUd. wen wI SO V /JDmn kRz, V wil
undDstAnd wot wI mIn.

10. plIz tel us hM kild JFK. it's ben drFvN us krEzi.

TANk V fP jD kOopDESn.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----




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----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead
To: shavian@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] A Modest Proposal


----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon
To: shavian@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] A Modest Proposal

[snip]

>> The problem as I see it is that you and I don't pronounce "on" the
>> same way. That being the case how do we convey, in print,
>> just what sound "on" is supposed to be? And if the sound
>> that the letter stands for is different in different dialects then the
>> alphabet isn't at all phonetic, since the letterform baers no
>> relationship to the sound. Same letterform, two very different
>> sounds depending on dialect. That's the problem with the
>> reading guide.

> I don't recall the alphabet ever claiming to be 'phonetic'.
> It's 'phonemic', not phonetic. If you want phoneticism, you
> have to use something like the IPA. You cannot expect readers
> from all over the world to pronounce one Shavian letter
> exactly as every other would, it's not only unreasonable but
> it's impossible. Also, if every Shavian character were made
> to represent ONE sound universally pronounced, spellings
> differences would INCREASE, rather than diminish. Shavian
> phonemes should be pronounced differently by readers
> depending on their own pronunciation.

<snip>

Good point. I hadn't really distinguished between phonetic and phonemic.
What you say makes a great deal of sense. I think I can live with that
interpretation. :)

--gary



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To whoever it was that set up the Read_Alphabet group. Are you sure this is
a good idea? There are only 51 people in the Shavian group and a further
split seems to me to be counter-productive. In my opinion there is plenty
of room for discussion of both classic Shavian and Reads upgraded version in
the same group. Besides which, the difference between the two alphabets is
minimal and they both operate using the same principles - musch of the
discussion in both groups would be relevent to users of either alphabet.
Again, in my opinion, there is no really good reason to set up a separate
egroup, lets just have the one we've got now and recognise that different
versions of Shavian exist.
With regard to Quickscript, I think that it is confusing to change the name
of this alphabet. It now has three names! Quickscript, Second Shaw Alphabet
and, now, Read Alphabet. While I apreciate the idea of naming the alphabet
after Read he has already named this alphabet Quickscript, secondly it may
be possible to confuse "Read Alphabet" with ReadSpel another alphabet Read
devised in his later years and which more closely follows the Roman
alphabet.

Regards,

Roger Collin
roJR kolin



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I agree, we need more unity, not more division. We have two superior
alphabets, united by a common idea, we need to stick together in reviving
them. I don't think a separate newsgroup is a good idea.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila
----- Original Message -----
From: "Collin, Roger" <roger.collin@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:30 PM
Subject: [shavian] A new egroup for Quickscript?


> To whoever it was that set up the Read_Alphabet group. Are you sure this
is
> a good idea? There are only 51 people in the Shavian group and a further
> split seems to me to be counter-productive. In my opinion there is plenty
> of room for discussion of both classic Shavian and Reads upgraded version
in
> the same group. Besides which, the difference between the two alphabets
is
> minimal and they both operate using the same principles - musch of the
> discussion in both groups would be relevent to users of either alphabet.
> Again, in my opinion, there is no really good reason to set up a separate
> egroup, lets just have the one we've got now and recognise that different
> versions of Shavian exist.
> With regard to Quickscript, I think that it is confusing to change the
name
> of this alphabet. It now has three names! Quickscript, Second Shaw
Alphabet
> and, now, Read Alphabet. While I apreciate the idea of naming the
alphabet
> after Read he has already named this alphabet Quickscript, secondly it may
> be possible to confuse "Read Alphabet" with ReadSpel another alphabet Read
> devised in his later years and which more closely follows the Roman
> alphabet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger Collin
> roJR kolin
>
>
>
>
>
>


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(Note: This post is in both Shaw and Revised Shaw. Download the Jerome font to view the latter.)

F'v notist HAt mOst v us sIm tM bI gFz hC.
wXr R H wimin?
iz HX sumHiN abQt SEvWn HAt atrAkts men,
P iz it HAt it Just ripelz wimin?
apXantli, HX'z sumwun nEmd /kATi in H grMp.
k'mon, let's hC frum H lEdIz fP a cEnJ!

F'v notist HAt mOst v us sIm tM bI gFz hC.
wXr R H wimin?
z HX sumHiN abQt SEvWn HAt atrAkts men,
P iz it HAt it Just ripelz wimin? apXantli, HX'z sumwun nEmd /kaTi in H grMp.
k'mon, let's hC frum H lEdIz fP a cEnJ!

/Jon /zUk
http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

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I just discovered a possible reason why there may not be more info
posted in Shavian is that Netscape Messenger for some reason does not
allow the user to select a Shavian font when sending Rich Text. It's
very easy to do in IE, but in Netscape, all fonts are available,
EXCEPT Shavian ones?

Does anyone know a workaround for this?

jon


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Gary, perhaps you can program it to detect if a capital letter follows a period or not.

So if it sees [period space capital] or [period space, space, capital] it won't prompt, but if it sees [lowercase space capitlal] or [lowercase, uppercase] it will prompt.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: [shavian] A few more translations

I've added the Shavian translation of Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart" to my page, and the translation of the first chapter of Edgar Rice Burroughs' "The Land that Time Forgot" is completed, but not yet formatted in HTML (should be done later today, I'm sure).

The URL is http://www.teleport.com/~fiziwig/shaw.html

As I translate more text with my new translation program the vocabulary in the glossary grows, and each new translation proceeds more quickly since it finds fewer and fewer unlisted words. The Burroughs chapter took about 15 minutes, for example.

One minor problem I've encounterd, and suggestions for a solution would be very welcome, is the case where certain words require the namer dot only in certain contexts. For example, if the text talks about a dog named "Spot" then the namer dot should be used, yet the word "spot" does not ordinarily require the namer dot. The program is not nearly intelligent enough to figure out when it might be required (it simply looks up the word in the glossayr and replaces it with the Shavian spelling). Short of programming an extensive artificial intelligence into it, I can't come up with an easy-to-use way to insert the namer dot where required by context. I suppose I'll end up having to proof read the translation and make the corrections manually.

--gary


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--- In shavian@..., "Gary Shannon" <reboot@r...> wrote:
> I've just completed version 0.0 of my English to Shavian translator
program
> for Windows. If anybody is interested in playing with it can be
downloaded
Had a quick look, Gary. Seems OK.

What language did you write it in?

Andy


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