Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Dana C Durkee wrote:

>
> Hello to you all!
>


> You might be wondering why it took me so
> long to acutally join the group. I suppose it
> was because I initially felt a bit intimidated
> at the scholarship and phonetic expertise of
> many of the members. I didn't feel that I
> would have much to add (and I'm still not
> convinced that I do), but it was great fun and
> very interesting to read and then understand
> the various posts. Having Newbie come out f
> finally helped me to decide to be brave and
> jump in.


end prokrAstinESan
And entD Ha SO;

V SUrli paZes
Yl HAt it tEks;

basFdz, a kanfeSan
fram wun HAt SUd nO,

sum ov us, jes,
yr nYt but fEks

...dSep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- circtf wrote:
>
> If you're using the Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
> in the Group itself, and not an e-mail program,
> you can access Shavian fairly easily.
>
> 1. Activate the Rich-Text Editor (Beta) by
> clicking the link above the "To:" field.

> 2. Type your message as normal, including
> parts in Shavian.

> 3. Check "View HTML Source"

> 4. Add <font face="Shaw Sans No. 2"
> size="#"> to the front of the Shavian.
> Add </font> to the end. (For size, I prefer 3.)

> 5. Uncheck "View HTML Source." You'll see your
> text in Shavian where you put the tags.


Where do i check "view HTML source"? I don't seem
to be able to find any such box anywhere.

hope you can set me straight,
dshep
(Mac user)

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- paul vandenbrink wrote:


> F trAnslitDEtad a bit mP v H pOam

...

> F sY an EJad, EJad mAn.

...


Ha EJad, EJad mAn iz rapVtadli
Ha YTD in a self-raflektiv and
YtabFagrAfikal mMd. At lIst, so
sez Ha nOts in mF kopi ov /Alis.

wundrihli,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Philip Newton wrote:


> A phonemic alphabet doesn't care how someone
> pronounces a given sound; it doesn't use phonetic
> symbols saying this is "a half-mid close rounded
> vowel" or the like, but merely identifies the
> phoneme as "the 'o' in 'cot'" (or whatever). So
> however anyone pronounces it, they can use the
> same symbol.

> If people merge what other people consider two
> separate phonemes, then the merging person
> will probably use only one of the two phoneme
> symbols, but as long as people have the same
> sets of phonemes, it doesn't matter how they're
> pronounced -- they can use the same symbols.

> I would say that in Shavian, "cot" is always _kot_,
> except for people who merge "cot" and "caught".
> The Shaw alphabet also doesn't indicate
> pronunciation beyond saying "this symbol is
> pronounced the way you pronounce the sound
> 'x' in the word 'xyz'".


I would think so too, except that some people
sometimes merge the sound of cot, and sometimes
both cot and caught into that of “calm”, thereby
complicating phoneme identification somewhat,
as there is a choice between one, two, or three
symbols, and the set overlaps are not always
precise. Consider the sequence


cast/can’t/calm/cot/cost/coast

which, depending upon the speaker, can be


kAst--kynt--ky(l)m--kot--kYst--kOst

or

kAst--kynt--ky(l)m--kot--kost--kOst

or

kAst--kAnt--ky(l)m--kyt--kyst--kOst

or

kAst--kAnt--ky(l)m--kyt--kYst--kOst

or

kAst--kAnt--ky(l)m--kot--kYst--kOst


Note that the phonemic symbols used to
represent the first and last words of this
sequence can accommodate a considerable
variation in pronunciation, more so perhaps
than the sometimes subtle differences found
in the intervening continuum. It is the
availability of alternative symbols there that
muddles the issue.

The final example above is that recorded in the
AHD, using all the symbols available for these
sounds in Shavian, which could be a good thing,
and which represents i believe a fairly decent
middle-ground, in other words, a compromise.

compromisingly,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- circtf wrote:
> >
> > If you're using the Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
> > in the Group itself, and not an e-mail program,
> > you can access Shavian fairly easily.
> >
> > 1. Activate the Rich-Text Editor (Beta) by
> > clicking the link above the "To:" field.
>
> > 2. Type your message as normal, including
> > parts in Shavian.
>
> > 3. Check "View HTML Source"
>
> > 4. Add <font face="Shaw Sans No. 2"
> > size="#"> to the front of the Shavian.
> > Add </font> to the end. (For size, I prefer 3.)
>
> > 5. Uncheck "View HTML Source." You'll see your
> > text in Shavian where you put the tags.
>
>
> Where do i check "view HTML source"? I don't seem
> to be able to find any such box anywhere.
>
> hope you can set me straight,
> dshep
> (Mac user)
>

"View HTML Source" is right below the textbox when you're using the Rich-Text Editor.

hF /dAna

hOpfalI, nyt ralEtad t /rOsAna-dAna. welkum t H grMp. it is nFc wen sum wun dasFdz t pDtisapEt mP AktivlI in H grMp. hQ did V fxrst hID abQt H /SYvWn letxz?

mFself, F lFkt plEz by /gI. /bI. /SY n hApand akrys hiz speSal Panj bUk in a sekund hAnd bUk stP, flipt HrM it d wuz amEzd t sI hQ nFslY it Yl wxkt Qt.

F fidald wiT it fP yCz.

rigRdz, /pYl /vI.

_____________________atAct______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- Dana C Durkee wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello to you all!
> >
>
>
> > You might be wondering why it took me so
> > long to acutally join the group. I suppose it
> > was because I initially felt a bit intimidated
> > at the scholarship and phonetic expertise of
> > many of the members. I didn't feel that I
> > would have much to add (and I'm still not
> > convinced that I do), but it was great fun and
> > very interesting to read and then understand
> > the various posts. Having Newbie come out f
> > finally helped me to decide to be brave and
> > jump in.
>
>
> end prokrAstinESan
> And entD Ha SO;
>
> V SUrli paZes
> Yl HAt it tEks;
>
> basFdz, a kanfeSan
> fram wun HAt SUd nO,
>
> sum ov us, jes,
> yr nYt but fEks
>
> ...dSep
>

Hi DShep
Good to hear from you; it has been too long.
I agree that it doesn't matter if the pronounciation is consistently
different for a different accent group.
Australians constistently pronounce "ay" as the Aye sound.
It makes sense when you think that was probably its original
pronunciation.
However,
I do think that there does need to be a core group of common words
that retain a common spelling. A basic English subset of English
picked for its Universal pronunciation. We all ready have a specified
spelling for the 4 commonest English words. Why not set a standard
for the first 2000 commonest English words. A learning vocabulary.
The rest can be spelt phonetically.
Regards, Paul V.
_________________________attached________________________
-- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
If people merge what other people consider two
> > separate phonemes, then the merging person
> > should probably use only one of the two phoneme
> > symbols, but as long as people have the same
> > sets of phonemes, it doesn't matter how they're
> > pronounced -- they can use the same symbols.
>
> > I would say that in Shavian, "cot" is always _kot_,
> > except for people who merge "cot" and "caught".
> > The Shaw alphabet also doesn't indicate
> > pronunciation beyond saying "this symbol is
> > pronounced the way you pronounce the sound
> > 'x' in the word 'xyz'".
>
>
> I would think so too, except that some people
> sometimes merge the sound of cot, and sometimes
> both cot and caught into that of "calm", thereby
> complicating phoneme identification somewhat,
> as there is a choice between one, two, or three
> symbols, and the set overlaps are not always
> precise.
>
> compromisingly,
> dshep
>

I too see the utility of a core set of words with a common spelling,
though I'm hesitant to settle on a number until we start. Nevertheless,
we have a good resource: Wiktionary provides a list of the 1000
commonest words from all of the English-language books on Project
Gutenberg.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists/PG/2005/10/1
-1000

It's worth a look, anyway.

Cheers,
Joseph Spicer
𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑩𐑓 𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

On Jan 4, 2006, at 1:20 PM, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> I do think that there does need to be a core group of common words
> that retain a common spelling. A basic English subset of English
> picked for its Universal pronunciation. We all ready have a specified
> spelling for the 4 commonest English words. Why not set a standard
> for the first 2000 commonest English words. A learning vocabulary.
> The rest can be spelt phonetically.
> Regards, Paul V.

Thanks, Joseph
That makes it a lot easier. I will do the first 100 words.
There are some asterisks to indicate, the word does not qualify for
the list. There will be a Question mark where there could multiple
pronunciations. Most common words have a very stndard pronunciation.

1.the H
2.of v
3.and n
4.to t
5.in in
6.I F
7.that HAt
8.was wuz
9.he hI
10.his hiz
11.it it
12.with wiT
13.is iz
14.for fP
15.as AZ
16.had hAd
17.you V
18.not ? nyt not
19.be bI
20.on ? yn on
21.at At
22.her ? hD hx
23.by bF
24.which wic
25.have hAv
26.or P
27.from frum
28.this His
29.him him
30.but but
31.all Yl
32.she SI
33.were ? wx wD
34.they HE
35.my mF
36.are R
37.me mI
38.so sO
39.one wun
40.their HX
41.de*
42.an an
43.said sed
44.we wI
45.them Hem
46.who hM
47.would wUd
48.been bIn
49.will wil
50.no nO
51.when wen
52.there HX
53.if if
54.more mP
55.out Qt
56.up up
57.any eny
58.into intU
59.do dU
60.your yP
61.has hAz
62.man mAn
63.what wut
64.could kUd
65.other uHD
66.our QD
67.than HAn
68.some sum
69.very ? verI vXI
70.time tFm
71.about abQt
72.upon apYn
73.may mE
74.la*
75.its its
76.only OnlI
77.now nQ
78.little lital
79.like lFk
80.then Hen
81.can kAn
82.made mEd
83.should SUd
84.did did
85.us us
86.such suc
87.a a
88.great grEt
89.before ? bafP bIfP
90.must must
91.these HIz
92.two 2
93.see sI
94.over OvD
95.know nO
96.much muc
97.et*
98.after AftD
99.first fxrst
100.mr*

Here are the next 100 most common English words.
down good men own most never where old day work those come shall
himself came way without life make go long being well through might
say am en too many even again back here people think every same under
last went thought les found take still hand place also while just def
against die though young years get ever things give part nothing face
off right left once another god world house saw three new always took
put head love each mrs night between son few because mind tell whom
thing heart far lord seemed set whole days got country


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, wurdbendur@g... wrote:
>
> I too see the utility of a core set of words with a common
spelling,
> though I'm hesitant to settle on a number until we start.
Nevertheless,
> we have a good resource: Wiktionary provides a list of the 1000
> commonest words from all of the English-language books on Project
> Gutenberg.

On 1/5/06, paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> That makes it a lot easier. I will do the first 100 words.

Some of the words I'd pronounce a bit differently:

> 8.was wuz

woz

> 12.with wiT

wiH

> 18.not ? nyt not

not

> 20.on ? yn on

on

> 22.her ? hD hx

I'd say that "hx" is the appropriate spelling

> 27.from frum

Difficult :) I'd write "from", though in actual fact my pronunciation
is probably closer to "frum".

> 33.were ? wx wD

"wx", I'd say

> 57.any eny

enI (a typo, surely?)

> 58.into intU

intM

> 59.do dU

dM

> 60.your yP

jUD

(Though the "poor/pour" phoneme is marginal for many, and merges with
"pore"... still, spelling it that way seems wrong to me.)

> 63.what wut

wot

> 69.very ? verI vXI

"verI" for me.

> 72.upon apYn

apon

> 89.before ? bafP bIfP

Good question. Either seems fine to me.

> 92.two 2

or "tM".

> 98.after AftD

Meh. For me, this is "yftD", but that's more RP. If Shavian is to be
based on northern English, then AftD is probably best. Though
_Androcles_ uses "y" in words such as "after" and "can't".

> 99.first fxrst

fxst (no "r" in there for me)

> Here are the next 100 most common English words.
down dQn
good gUd
men men
own On
most mOst
never nevD
where wX
old Old
day dE
work wxk
those HOz
come kum
shall SAl
himself himself
came kEm
way wE
without wiHQt
life lFf
make mEk
go gO
long loN
being bIiN
well wel
through TrM
might mFt
say sE
am Am
*en
too tM
many menI
even Ivin / Ivan
again agen
back bAk
here hC
people pIpal
think TiNk
every evrI
same sEm
under undD
last lyst / lAst
went went
thought TYt
*les
found fQnd
take tEk
still stil
hand hAnd
place plEs
also YlsO
while wFl
just Just
*def
against agenst
die dF
though HO
young juN
years jCz
get get
ever evD
things TiNz
give giv
part pRt
nothing nuTiN
face fEs
off of
right rFt
left left
once wuns
another anuHD
god god
world wxld
house hQs
saw sY
three TrI
new nV
always YlwEz
took tUk
put pUt
head hed
love luv
each Ic
mrs misiz
night nFt
between batwIn
son sun
few fV
because bikoz
mind mFnd
tell tel
whom hMm
thing TiN
heart hRt
far fR
lord lPd
seemed sImd
set set
whole hOl
days dEz
got got
country kuntrI
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>