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Paul and Joe,

Androcles = AndraklIz Webster = 'andrøkléz

Joe wrote: That may be why Read specified that syllabic vowels should be
indicated this way. Even if you can tell these sounds apart, the distinction
isn't
important. At most, this vowel is an allophone of Ado. I always write an
Ado in this
position. Isn't this what was done in Androcles?

SB: Right! (see above). <ado> seems a poor choice for schwa, <ago> would be
better.
<array> for /&r/ also seems like a poor choice for a key word. /&'reI/
/ø'rá/ does not clearly indicate the sound in a terminal <er> <madder> /'maed-&r/


Paul wrote:
Even tho it is 48 Letters, there is certain terseness and economy
that makes it easy to learn and use, once you absorb the internal
logic. In design it is the very opposite of the I.P.A.

There are several IPAs. One is an pan-linguistic way of referencing sounds,
e.g. [f] , [k], [i], ... independent of any particular language. I think that
Bell's iconic Visible Speech might have been a little better for this purpose
since it referenced the articulators used to produce the sound.

The other involves the use of IPA symbols in a pronunciation guide for a
particular language . e.g., /f/ /k/ /i/, ....

There are at least 4 IPA based notations for English and none of them are
officially endorsed.

--Steve

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> SB: Right! (see above). <ado> seems a poor choice for schwa, <ago> would be
> better.

Indeed, Read later renamed this letter "ago" as seen in the ShawScript table.

> <array> for /&r/ also seems like a poor choice for a key word. /&'reI/
> /ø'rá/ does not clearly indicate the sound in a terminal <er> <madder> /'maed-
&r/

In ShawScript, Read didn't even acknowledge this as a letter, but rather ligature, and
rightly so. It probably still needs a good name, which is a difficult one. The only
word with something like this, unstressed and in initial position, that comes to mind
is "urbane", and that still isn't quite right. I would probably spell it \xbEn\ for the
quality of the vowel (at least as I pronounce it) rather than the stress.

> There are several IPAs. One is an pan-linguistic way of referencing sounds,
> e.g. [f] , [k], [i], ... independent of any particular language. I think that
> Bell's iconic Visible Speech might have been a little better for this purpose
> since it referenced the articulators used to produce the sound.

It's certainly more logical, though the complexity of it makes it just as hard to learn
and unnatural to read. I invented a similar system with more simplified forms,
though it was not an extensive phonetic one since it was designed for a specific
language and represented only consonants.

> The other involves the use of IPA symbols in a pronunciation guide for a
> particular language . e.g., /f/ /k/ /i/, ....

Surprisingly, this isn't used much for English. I think some versions of the American
Heritage Dictionary use it, as well as the Oxford Learning Dictionaries and ones by
Longman, I think.

I am not sure how well this will display on your screen.
To see the graphics, go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shaw.htm
48 characters download font Shaw sans2
The Shaw Alphabet
an alternate pronunciation guide or dictionary key spelling
shaw.htm is an addendum to shaw-short which became rather long.
C O N T E N T S
• Shavian Types
• New Alphabets
• Unicode Shaw
• Charts
• Transcriptions
• Unigraphic
• Clerical Errors
• FAQ
• Fonetix
• Converters
• JSSS articles
Some purists have been dissatisfied with a spelling reform that retains
the conventional Roman sound signs and have advocated going beyond phonemic
notations such as Webster's diacritics.
/'webstørz dýø'kritiks/ vs. /webstDs dFakritiks/

Both Mark Twain and GBS were dissatisfied with simplified spelling because it
looked ugly and uneducated. To have appeal, they reasoned, the phonographic
orthography would have be clearly distinguished from conventional spelling.

The Shaw Alphabet [aka Shavian] is the most well known radical reform. A
bequest from dramatist an social reformer, George Bernard Shaw [d. 1950],
financed a public competition in 1957 - 58 for the design of a new alphabet that
would have at least 40 letters and no digraphs [2 letter symbols such as Sh] or
diacritics [such as á è î ô ü]. [See Haas, Alphabets for English]

The rules also included provisions to accommodate Shaw's wish that the new
spellings should not be seen as uneducated traditional spellings. Both Shaw and
Twain believed that this required the abandonment of the Roman alphabet.
Shaw also wanted the new script to have the economic benefits of a linear
shorthand. It should be compact and allow rapid hand writing. Read's script
did meet all of the expectations:

SY olsO wantad H nM skript tM hav H ekanomik benafits v a linFD shorthAnd.

To view the example, you must first download the font.
More? go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shaw.htm

--Steve

from www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shaw.htm
KEYBOARD MAP FOR SHAVIAN
Your second point regards having a key for common phoneme combinations.
The only problem with having single keys [or unigrafs] for combinations
[e.g., K for Ch] is the task of learning the extra paired associates /tS/=<K>.
Once learned, there is no problem other than not being able to use the new code
with people who have not been initiated.

/dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Display Shavian
/dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Shavian keyboard map schwa-a
.dOnt rEkQl nq frum EtiN Qstcrz at Dc spo. Unifon keyboard schwa-c
.dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc. ENgliS schwa-a
Dónt rékoil nau frûm éting oisterz at ð spä. Webster Latin 1 [Intl Keyboard]
IPA
available in Unicode with extensions

ENgliS is supposed to be readable without a key. It is basically Unifon with
no arbitrary letters assigned to phoneme combinations. If one of your goals
is to optimize readability, then this is one of the moves you have to make.

The DeMeyere keyboard map is very idiosyncratic. There are associations but
no consistent one. In addition, instead of just 36 sound signs+combinations
as in ENgliS the DeMeyere notation has 48.

The keyboard maps and correspondence tables have now been uploaded to the
file section.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/files/sound-symbol-charts/readscrip
ts.gif

These URLs can be added to a discussion.

from www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shaw.htm
KEYBOARD MAP FOR SHAVIAN



/dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Display Shavian
/dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Shavian keyboard map schwa-a
.dOnt rEkQl nq frum EtiN Qstcrz at Dc spo. Unifon keyboard schwa-c
.dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc. ENgliS schwa-a
Dónt rékoil nau frûm éting oisterz at ð spä. Webster Latin 1 [Intl

I would like to see some critiques of keyboard ENgliS.
Most tradspel adepts find mixed cap notations annoying, ugly, and hard to
read.
How hard is it for sound spellers?
.dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc.

a for schwa is the same as Demeyere's notation so this shouldn't be a problem.
How hard is it to associated q with an italic a-form?
c for ah is quite arbitrary and there is always a problem when you reassign a
symbol.
IPA uses a reversed c for <awe>. Webster Latin 1 (WLO) uses ä and ô.


--Steve
Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
mailto:sbett@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> /dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Display Shavian
> /dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY. Shavian keyboard map schwa-a
> .dOnt rEkQl nq frum EtiN Qstcrz at Dc spo. Unifon keyboard schwa-c
> .dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc. ENgliS schwa-a
> Dónt rékoil nau frûm éting oisterz at ð spä. Webster Latin 1 [Intl

A namer dot should never be used to begin a sentence. As pointed out in the
introduction to the Shavian edition of Androcles (as well as in the Quikscript manual),
it's used only to set off names, and only when they could be confused with common
words.

> I would like to see some critiques of keyboard ENgliS.
> Most tradspel adepts find mixed cap notations annoying, ugly, and hard to
> read.
> How hard is it for sound spellers?
> .dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc.
>
> a for schwa is the same as Demeyere's notation so this shouldn't be a problem.
> How hard is it to associated q with an italic a-form?
> c for ah is quite arbitrary and there is always a problem when you reassign a
> symbol.
> IPA uses a reversed c for <awe>. Webster Latin 1 (WLO) uses ä and ô.

ENgliS seems to lack distinct letters for \q\, \Q\, and the ligatures, which creates
some incompatibility with Shavian. It might make a good basis for a new mapping,
but these two letters would still have to be added, so we might as well keep them
where they are.

And while ENgliS is no doubt more recognizable than keyboard Shavian, it's no easier
to write. The capital vowels may be recognizable because of their equivalent use in
some pronunciation guides (mostly in textbooks as far as I've seen), but the others
like |N| and |S| still have to be memorized. The use of |D| is hardly any better than
|H| since most people don't make an association between any of these sounds. It
does seem a little strange to me to use |j| for the /j/ sound, but it's acceptable for a
couple of reasons. This spelling is used in other languages, making it somewhat
recognizable. Also consider that there are only 26 letters on a standard QWERTY
keyboard, and some concessions must be made. While keyboard Shavian is a little
hard to read, I think it's reasonable. Improvements could be made, but I haven't seen
a system I really like yet.

> --Steve
> Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
> Austin, Texas
> mailto:sbett@l... 512-302-3014
> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
> retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
> moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

I have a useable version of my new font, which I've called Shaw Metro. You can find it
in the Files on the group page.
I wanted to create a font in which all the letters were the same height for use in
titling. It occurred to me that the deep letters could simply be moved up to sit on the
baseline with the others, since they're already recognizable in isolation (as per the
requirements of the contest). This could have been enough, and it may still be a
good idea, but I also wanted the short letters to match. This isn't really a problem,
except that in some styles the vowels could come to resemble consonants. To
prevent this, I made these vowels more rounded so that, for instance, \o\ doesn't
look like \p\ and \A\ doesn't look like \f\.
In any case, this is kind of an experimental font, so I'd appreciate any feedback.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> That's exactly how I intended it. I meant for it to be used in titling or for a large
> initial letter. The font is actually based on a lettering design (http://
> www.cafepress.com/shawstudio.13588461) I did for my Shavian shop on CafePress
> (http://www.cafepress.com/shawstudio).

Phil and Joe,

Could you put Shaw Sans No. 2 in the font file and all other fonts in
a folder called other Shaw fonts?

I would also like to see a text file with an explanation of the
different Shaw fonts.

For example, Shaw Sans No. 3 looks like a slightly bolder version of
Shaw Sans No. 2.

Shaw Metro has no descenders and resembles the upper case Roman
letter.

Creative freedom is fine but you have to explain where these variant
fonts might be used. A gif file illustrating a short passage in
alternative fonts would also be helpful.

--Steve


----- Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...> wrote:

> > Joe wrote: In any case, I've been working on a number of Shavian
fonts in the hope that Shavian can have the same variety and creative
freedom that Roman does now.

PN: I think that [Metro] a useful alternative to have. It reminds me
of Georgian, which doesn't (now) have upper- and lower-case letters,
but they do have a style of font where all letters are the same height
which they use for titles and the like; this appears similar.

Steve Bett skribis:
>
> For example, Shaw Sans No. 3 looks like a slightly
> bolder version of Shaw Sans No. 2.


Yes, that's exactly what it is.

--Ph. D.

Steve Bett skribis:
>
> Creative freedom is fine but you have to explain where
> these variant fonts might be used. A gif file illustrating
> a short passage in alternative fonts would also be helpful.


I can only speak for my own fonts. They can be used
wherever you feel appropriate, just as the thousands
of Latin fonts can be. I wouldn't use ShawCurly for the
text in a newspaper, but display typography needs some
variety. Even _Androcles_ used three different fonts.

It's too bad we've lost the files created by Simon Barnes.
He did several mock-ups of existing advertisements and
magazine covers redone in Shavian. He made good use
of the various fonts.

--Ph. D.