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On 1/22/05 9:56 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Philip
>
> I agree with Joe.
> My expectation is that we will fall back on the Roman Alphabet,
> for foreign words, that do not have a standard English pronunciation.

Most of the foreign borrowings we use are written in Roman in there native
language anyway, so those aren't an issue. It's a good default for those
that aren't assimilated entirely, at least.

> If there does not happen to be a accepted English spelling in Roman
> for a specific Foreign Word, or the the Language itself does not
> support transcription into the Roman Alphabet, we might consider
> whether it I.P.A. be better to write it in I.P.A. That's what it was
> designed for.

That's one option at least. We could attempt to spell the closest match in
Shavian or Roman first, and then we might revert to the IPA.

> I don't think this problem will come up that often in any case.
> It is not surprising. Many languages including Chinese, Polish and
> Turkish although not orginally written in the Roman Alphabet, allow
> for its use. It is considered universally recognizable.

There are standard and widely-accepted systems for writing languages like
Chinese and Japanese with the Roman alphabet. Most of our Japanese
loanwords, for example, are written in the Hepburn system. We could
continue to use these Romanizations, or conventions could be made to
represent these words in Shavian.
Most languages accept mixed scripts. In Chinese, it's not uncommon to find
names written in Roman or Cyrillic. Roman is often mixed with just about
every other script. I agree that Roman should be treated as the universally
recognizable script. I personally would have no problem writing Japanese
Kana (though probably not Chinese characters), Cyrillic, Greek, or whatever
other scripts I happen to know right alongside with Roman and Shavian, but
we can't expect everybody else to learn these.

> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. We need not require Phonetic accuracy from foreign words written
> in the Roman Alphabet. Obviously, they are external to the Shavian
> system.

I agree. As long as we're not writing in Shavian (irregularity here would
be unacceptable), we don't have to write everything with the same phonemic
system. Foreign expressions written as such should retain their original
spellings where possible.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

Let's all look at Rule 13d in our Harbrace Handbook: Commas do not set
off restrictive (necessary) clauses, phrases, or appositives.

Example: Everyone, who owns an automobile, should have collision
insurance.

In the above example, those who do not own an automobile do not need
collision insurance.

Rule 13a states: A comma should not separate a subject from its verb or
the verb from its object.

Example: The lawyer said, that I could appeal the speeding ticket.

This is a separation of the verb (said) and the direct object (a noun
clause: that I could...).

I hope this has been helpful!
--Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:

> > I agree with Joe.
> > My expectation is that we will fall back on the Roman Alphabet,
> > for foreign words, that do not have a standard English
> pronunciation.
>
> Paul,
>
> This is just an aside - completely unrelated to Shavian...
>
> I've always noticed your use of commas. You use them in sentences
> like this:
> "He thought it was bigger, than the other one.", or "there were many
> things,
> that weren't right." I've never seen this kind of use before.
>
> Are you consciously aware you do it? :)
>
> Just commenting, not criticising!
> Hugh B
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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Hi Hugh & Star

And yet I could quite correctly say.
The lawyer said, "You could appeal the speeding ticket."
And I think the phrase in quotes is the direct object of the sentence.

Anyway, I try and be sparing with my commas.
Usually, I use them for just 3 purposes.
1. to delimit members of a list.
2. to indicate the beginning and end of a subordinate clause.
3. to indicate a grammatically significant pause in the flow of the
sentence, unless it is at the end of the sentence.
At the end of a sentence, I would use a period or ellipsis.

If there are significant variations in how people use punctuation
signs for English, we might want to provide Shavian usage notes.
Personally, I suspect the differences are so slight and so
transparent to the reader, that his understanding will not be impeded
by the odd extraneous punctuation sign.

Regards, Paul V.
___________________attached_____________________________

<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Let's all look at Rule 13d in our Harbrace Handbook: Commas do not
set off restrictive (necessary) clauses, phrases, or appositives.
>
> Example: Everyone, who owns an automobile, should have collision
> insurance.
>
> In the above example, those who do not own an automobile do not need
> collision insurance.
>
> Rule 13a states: A comma should not separate a subject from its
verb or
> the verb from its object.
>
> Example: The lawyer said, that I could appeal the speeding ticket.
>
> This is a separation of the verb (said) and the direct object (a
noun
> clause: that I could...).
>
> I hope this has been helpful!
> --Star

Rule 12b(2) Commas follow introductory phrases becore independant
clauses.

Example: The lawyer said, "You could appeal the speeding ticket."

Here you have an independant clause with an introduction that tells us
who is speaking.

Example: The lawyer said that you could appeal the speeding ticket.

The word "that" and the lack of a direct quote makes it a dependant
clause to a transitive verb. "The lawyer said" is no more a sentence
than "That you could appeal the speeding ticket."

English has so many quirky rules, but it is obvious to the average
reader when these rules are not followed, hence the Harbrace handbook
that I have right at hand in my writing area. I am also a writer by
trade, and I know that those reading my work, though they may not
realise that there are specific rules, will realise that I have broken
those rules, thereby making the reading a task rather than a joy.

My Government teacher had an interesting view on commas. She said,
"First write the paper, then sprinkle liberally with commas." I only
brought up the rules since Hugh brought up the point, but in such
quickly written communications, I hardly notice such minor things.

I meant no offense to you Paul or anyone who has their own comma rules.

Now, can we get back to the rules of Shavian?

--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Hugh & Star
>
> And yet I could quite correctly say.
> The lawyer said, "You could appeal the speeding ticket."
> And I think the phrase in quotes is the direct object of the
> sentence.
>
> Anyway, I try and be sparing with my commas.
> Usually, I use them for just 3 purposes.
> 1. to delimit members of a list.
> 2. to indicate the beginning and end of a subordinate clause.
> 3. to indicate a grammatically significant pause in the flow of the
> sentence, unless it is at the end of the sentence.
> At the end of a sentence, I would use a period or ellipsis.
>
> If there are significant variations in how people use punctuation
> signs for English, we might want to provide Shavian usage notes.
> Personally, I suspect the differences are so slight and so
> transparent to the reader, that his understanding will not be impeded
> by the odd extraneous punctuation sign.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> ___________________attached_____________________________
>
> <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > Let's all look at Rule 13d in our Harbrace Handbook: Commas do not
> set off restrictive (necessary) clauses, phrases, or appositives.
> >
> > Example: Everyone, who owns an automobile, should have collision
> > insurance.
> >
> > In the above example, those who do not own an automobile do not
> need
> > collision insurance.
> >
> > Rule 13a states: A comma should not separate a subject from its
> verb or
> > the verb from its object.
> >
> > Example: The lawyer said, that I could appeal the speeding ticket.
> >
> > This is a separation of the verb (said) and the direct object (a
> noun
> > clause: that I could...).
> >
> > I hope this has been helpful!
> > --Star
>
>
>
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!




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Thanks, Star

You make perfect sense, in this matter.
Of course we can get back to creating some guidelines for writing Shavian.

Your obedient servant, Paul V.
_____________attached____________________

At 02:26 AM 1/23/05, you wrote:

>Rule 12b(2) Commas follow introductory phrases becore independant
>clauses.
>
>Example: The lawyer said, "You could appeal the speeding ticket."
>
>Here you have an independant clause with an introduction that tells us
>who is speaking.
>
>Example: The lawyer said that you could appeal the speeding ticket.
>
>The word "that" and the lack of a direct quote makes it a dependant
>clause to a transitive verb. "The lawyer said" is no more a sentence
>than "That you could appeal the speeding ticket."
>
>English has so many quirky rules, but it is obvious to the average
>reader when these rules are not followed, hence the Harbrace handbook
>that I have right at hand in my writing area. I am also a writer by
>trade, and I know that those reading my work, though they may not
>realise that there are specific rules, will realise that I have broken
>those rules, thereby making the reading a task rather than a joy.
>
>My Government teacher had an interesting view on commas. She said,
>"First write the paper, then sprinkle liberally with commas." I only
>brought up the rules since Hugh brought up the point, but in such
>quickly written communications, I hardly notice such minor things.
>
>I meant no offense to you Paul or anyone who has their own comma rules.
>
>Now, can we get back to the rules of Shavian?
>
>--Star
>
>--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Hugh & Star
> >
> > And yet I could quite correctly say.
> > The lawyer said, "You could appeal the speeding ticket."
> > And I think the phrase in quotes is the direct object of the
> > sentence.
> >
> > Anyway, I try and be sparing with my commas.
> > Usually, I use them for just 3 purposes.
> > 1. to delimit members of a list.
> > 2. to indicate the beginning and end of a subordinate clause.
> > 3. to indicate a grammatically significant pause in the flow of the
> > sentence, unless it is at the end of the sentence.
> > At the end of a sentence, I would use a period or ellipsis.
> >
> > If there are significant variations in how people use punctuation
> > signs for English, we might want to provide Shavian usage notes.
> > Personally, I suspect the differences are so slight and so
> > transparent to the reader, that his understanding will not be impeded
> > by the odd extraneous punctuation sign.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > ___________________attached_____________________________
> >
> > <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > Let's all look at Rule 13d in our Harbrace Handbook: Commas do not
> > set off restrictive (necessary) clauses, phrases, or appositives.
> > >
> > > Example: Everyone, who owns an automobile, should have collision
> > > insurance.
> > >
> > > In the above example, those who do not own an automobile do not
> > need
> > > collision insurance.
> > >
> > > Rule 13a states: A comma should not separate a subject from its
> > verb or
> > > the verb from its object.
> > >
> > > Example: The lawyer said, that I could appeal the speeding ticket.
> > >
> > > This is a separation of the verb (said) and the direct object (a
> > noun
> > > clause: that I could...).
> > >
> > > I hope this has been helpful!
> > > --Star
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>====>http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
>Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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>Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:26:14 -0800 (PST), Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> Now, can we get back to the rules of Shavian?

I would suggest that Shavian simply use the comma rules of the
writer's native English style, whatever that is. That way, people need
not learn a special set of rules for Shavian.

(For example, those who set off the last element of a list with a
comma -- I ate bread, butter, and cheese -- can do so in Shavian,
while those who don't -- I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand
and God -- can omit it in Shavian as well.)

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Hugh and Paul,

I think you have found the problem shared by almost all attempts to
represent spoken English. It is not really a dialect problem.

No one does a very good job of representing unstressed syllables.
Is it voy-ej, voy-aj, or voy-ij? voij
vq eJ vq aJ vqiJ vYiJ?

The short i and the short schwa are sometimes distinct phonemes. That is,
there are several minimal pairs.

PMF (www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/pictography.htm) gets around the problem by
minimizing the difference between the short i and the schwa. Thus if you get
it wrong,
the spellings look almost the same.

voioj

One can have a convention here. All unstressed vowels are represented as
schwa.
There may have to be a few exceptions when the difference is phonemic - that
is changes the meaning of a word but usually one can rely on context for this.

This simplifies spelling and the resulting written dialect can be understood
by all.

--Steve


PV: I checked the American Heritage Dictionary for an approved
pronunciation. It had vqiJ. Go figure.

Vowels vary with accents in English,
PV: you are trying to represent a Welsh or a Spanish/Portuguese word.
We don't to fall into the traps that made English T.O. such a
Hodgepodge.


Hugh: And voyage is vqeJ.

> I'd pronounce those two bon bon and vqaJ.


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
mailto:sbett@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

On 1/23/05 9:16 AM, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@...> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:26:14 -0800 (PST), Star Raven
> <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>>
>> Now, can we get back to the rules of Shavian?
>
> I would suggest that Shavian simply use the comma rules of the
> writer's native English style, whatever that is. That way, people need
> not learn a special set of rules for Shavian.

I agree. Read intended for Shavian to use the same punctuation for just
that reason. If we're using the same punctuation, we should use it the same
way. Otherwise, we'd be giving them different rules, which would be nearly
as bad as doing the same with letters.

> (For example, those who set off the last element of a list with a
> comma -- I ate bread, butter, and cheese -- can do so in Shavian,
> while those who don't -- I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand
> and God -- can omit it in Shavian as well.)
>
> Cheers,

I'll second that. This variation is hard enough as it is. I sometimes find
it hard to decide whether I should use a comma here. I've had teachers who
consider it incorrect, or prefer it one way or the other. In the end, it
just comes down to the preference of the writer. The important thing about
these rules is to keep consistent within any given work.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:05:57 -0500, Joe <wurdbendur@...> wrote:
> In the end, it just comes down to the preference of the writer.

*nods*

Comma use is a matter of style, in my opinion, not of grammar, so
neither way is "wrong", _per se_.

> The important thing about
> these rules is to keep consistent within any given work.

I second this bit, however.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Ian,

Thanks for the Ianspel Diphthongs.
I have added the Shavian equivalents.
Ianspel follows the lead of the IPA
The Shavian keyboard map does some of the same but substitutes unigraphs.

--Steve

ian.ascott@... writes:
The following list ov jzi tu remember dif8oqz mb (mei bj) iusful for
thoze huu hav trabl with Long Vowels vis-a-vis the Dif8oqen.
DIFTHONGS
IPA and Ianspel Tradspel
ai as in fail = TS file
ei .. .. feil = .. fail
oi .. .. foil = .. foil
au .. .. faul = .. fowl
iu .. .. fiul = .. fuel
ou .. .. foul = .. foal

Ian
Shavian

Ai Ai or F F fEl
ei ei oe E E fEl
Yi Yi or q q fql
aU AU or Q Q fQl
iM or V V fVl
oU or O O fOl


ENgliS Webster Latin 1

I fIl fýl
A fAl fál
oi foil fôil
qv fqvl or foul faul
yw fywl or fiwl fyül
O fOl fól