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--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> This kind of thing has been mentioned before, I think. Shavian is
designed to represent the most common sounds necessary to communicate
English effectively. Combining two consonants together does not
really fit into this I don't think, especially as 'x' isn't that
common.

I forgot to respond to this before. While it's true what the
letter "x" isn't all that common, the sound itself can be represented
in many different ways, eg. cs (eg. politics, from poly --> many,
tics --> blood sucking parasites ;-)), cks (eg. bricks), gs (eg.
eggs), etc. According to the Unifon page, the k sound can be
respresented 17 diferent ways (11 common), s can also be represented
17 ways (9 common), g 6 ways (4 common) and z 13 ways (9 common),
which gives a theoretical maximum of 367 ways (117 common) to
represent the x sounds. True, not every combination will be seen in
English words, but I'm sure there would be a sizable number of them,
pushing it up high enough to justify a separate character. L8r.



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Hi
My opinion based on Canadian pronunciation (best of both world?) is that it
sounds like an extended ash sound, somewhere between a long version of the
short ash sound and an ash sound followed by a Schwa sound. Is the Schwa
sound in the Shaw alphabet always represented by ado? In the revised Shaw
alphabet the Schwa sound is represented by a dot or period. "skiing" sound
to me like a long "e" sound, eat also followed by the Schwa sound. Luckily
that sound is represented by the letter Ian in the Shaw alphabet.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink

>___________________ attached ___________________
> > In a similar vein, how about, say, "sang" (and bang, hang, gang,
> > Tang(R), thanks, language, etc)? I perceive it as having "long
>a"(1) and
> > whould thus spell it as sEN (so-age-hung); but the dictionaries
>I've
> > checked(2) give the vowel as "short a", which would suggest
>spelling
> > it sAN (so-ash-hung).
> >
> > I haven't happened to come across a canonical spelling yet (I don't
>have
> > an Androcles), but I would lean towards "ash" based on the -ing
>usage,
> > despite the seemingly wrong (to my ears) vowel.
> >
> > (1) On gross repetition and streching out the vowel, I'm quite sure
>it's
> > a bit higher in the mouth than that in "age", but I can't make it
>sound
> > like an "ash" without sounding completely wrong.
>
>That's the same basic system I used to (finally) resolve the "ing
>dilemma" for me. Instead of using words such as "thinking", I instead
>looked at words such as "being", "skiing", etc. Since the voels in
>each word sound different from each other (to me), and since the
>first vowel is obviously a long e in each case, I've decided to
>compromise by using the short i for ing, despite how wrong it looks




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rubik67 wrote:
> While it's true what the letter "x" isn't all that common, the
> sound itself can be represented in many different ways, eg. cs
> (eg. politics, from poly --> many, tics --> blood sucking
> parasites ;-)), cks (eg. bricks), gs (eg. eggs), etc.

But those are all /k/ + plural morpheme /s/. It makes sense to me, at least,
to write them with two separate letters. Then you can learn "plural is
usually formed by adding /s/ or /z/ according to these rules" rather than
having to learn exceptions such as "but /k/ goes to <x> instead".

> a theoretical maximum of 367 ways (117 common) to represent the
> x sounds. True, not every combination will be seen in English
> words, but I'm sure there would be a sizable number of them,
> pushing it up high enough to justify a separate character.

So do you want a character for /ts/ as well, as in "hits, ditz, Ritz"? Or
for /st/ as in "sting, stove, last"? Or for (etc etc)?

There are a bunch of frequent sound combinations, but I don't think they all
merit letters in a phonemic alphabet. As I see it, Shavian tries to
represent phonemes (sounds which distinguish between words), and /ks/ is not
a phoneme in English -- though /dZ/ (the sound in "judge") is, for example.
That's why there's a letter for /dZ/ but not one for /ks/.

The only two letters that don't specify phonemes are "yew" and "Ian" (though
the rhotics are mostly there to flatten the difference between rhotic and
non-rhotic dialects).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:46 AM
Subject: [shavian] Shaw Spelling - sang, bang, hang, fang and being & skiing

Hi
My opinion based on Canadian pronunciation (best of both world?) is that it
sounds like an extended ash sound, somewhere between a long version of the
short ash sound and an ash sound followed by a Schwa sound. Is the Schwa
sound in the Shaw alphabet always represented by ado? In the revised Shaw
alphabet the Schwa sound is represented by a dot or period. "skiing" sound
to me like a long "e" sound, eat also followed by the Schwa sound. Luckily
that sound is represented by the letter Ian in the Shaw alphabet.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink

The schwa is always represented by 'ado'; it's useful for determining where the stress shouldn't be.

Hugh

schwa-ado and the stressed mid lax vowel - up

There are two mid lax vowels - one is stressed one isn't
or at least that is the way that I look at it and Hugh seems to
agree:

> The schwa is always represented by 'ado'; it's useful for
determining where the stress shouldn't be.

However, there is some ambiguity in words with three more more
syllables. Man pronunciation dictionaries will use /^/ if there is
any relative stress at all.

underneath = undarnFT = undDnFT

The on-line pronunciation guide at www.m-w.com merges u and a and
uses & for all mid lax vowels. [abut] would be spelled &'b&t
In other words the accent is used to mark the difference u = '& and
ado = &du:

Franklin used a turned h for all mid lax vowels. This was a clever
solution in the period when it was easy to turn letters. URL below.

Regards,

Steve
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Franklin/franklin-
webster.html

--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
message #1396



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Bob's answer to the newbie questions were almost the same as mine
except with respect to the goals of Shavian.

1. Can Shavian actually help me write faster

Shaw was proficient in the Pitman shorthand but wanted a linear
system that would be easier to decipher and provide a better guide
to pronunciation. The trouble with most shorthand systems is that
they are quite difficult for someone not familiar with an author's
style to decode.

See: http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.html

Was this goal achieved. I rather doubt it. I don't know of anyone
who can take Shavian dictation at speech speed. It may be possible
but high dictation speeds are attained through constant practice.

Some people can write legible notes in Shavian or Quickscript faster
than they can in Roman characters. One high school student used
Shavian for lab notes to foil the person who had been copying them.

Most shorthand systems are easier to learn than Shavian because they
reduce the number of phonograms to the very minimum. Instead of 48
as with Shavian, you only have to learn about 24. It is one thing
to know how to write in shorthand, it is quite another to know all
of the abbreviated forms and write fast.

2. Are there alternatives to Shavian?

Hundrends but it may be difficult to locate information on them.
Here are 18 alternative transcriptions of a fable. [someone may want
to add one for Shavian].


Here is one invented by Benjamin Franklin
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Franklin/franklin-
webster.html

3. What is the best way to learn Shavian? This page contains a
couple of charts that could be useful in learning the Shaw
alphabet. One for instance, shows the IPA correspondences.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Shaw-Alphabet/pitmans-
intro.html




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Hi Steve & Hugh
I am unclear about the unstressed attribute.

Even though there is similarity in sound between the ado (schwa) sound and
the up sound, I think the difference is in how the schwa is used. That
creates an important distinction between the two sounds. The Schwa sound
only merges with consonants or ends a syllable. It never seems to connect
two consonants together like the up sound.

Should the schwa and the schwa r merge (array?) be treated separately from
short, long and dipthongs?
Isn't there the same relationship between unstressed
ado and up and the unstressed
array and urge?

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. Hugh, is there any other unstressed vowels?

***************************** attached **************************


At 10:57 PM 5/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>schwa-ado and the stressed mid lax vowel - up
>
>There are two mid lax vowels - one is stressed one isn't
>or at least that is the way that I look at it and Hugh seems to
>agree:
>
> > The schwa is always represented by 'ado'; it's useful for
>determining where the stress shouldn't be.
>
>However, there is some ambiguity in words with three more more
>syllables. Man pronunciation dictionaries will use /^/ if there is
>any relative stress at all.
>
>underneath = undarnFT = undDnFT
>
>The on-line pronunciation guide at www.m-w.com merges u and a and
>uses & for all mid lax vowels. [abut] would be spelled &'b&t
>In other words the accent is used to mark the difference u = '& and
>ado = &du:
>
>Franklin used a turned h for all mid lax vowels. This was a clever
>solution in the period when it was easy to turn letters. URL below.
>
>Regards,
>
>Steve
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Franklin/franklin-
>webster.html
>
>--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
>message #1396
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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> Even though there is similarity in sound between the ado (schwa) sound and
> the up sound, I think the difference is in how the schwa is used. That
> creates an important distinction between the two sounds. The Schwa sound
> only merges with consonants or ends a syllable. It never seems to connect
> two consonants together like the up sound.

The schwa is a vowel just like any other. The only difference in its usage
is that it is only used in syllables where the stress is NOT present (such
as in "fiRE", "diAcritic", "mayOrAl"). Basically, wherever there is a
noticeable syllable in a word, the 'ado' character is there as a kind of
'pseudo-vowel' to mark that there is no real vowel sound to that syllable.

> Should the schwa and the schwa r merge (array?) be treated separately from
> short, long and dipthongs?

Yes and no; its meaning is different from the rest of the set, but its
placing in words is no different. Use it in the same way as you would any
other vowel symbol, but only to mark lack of stress/sound.

> Isn't there the same relationship between unstressed
> ado and up and the unstressed
> array and urge?

Yes. 'Array' and 'err' are the rhotic variants of 'ado' and 'up'.

> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. Hugh, is there any other unstressed vowels?

The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are ever
used in non-stressed positions (such as in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
"carrYIng").

Hugh

> Even though there is similarity in sound between the ado (schwa) sound and
> the up sound, I think the difference is in how the schwa is used. That
> creates an important distinction between the two sounds. The Schwa sound
> only merges with consonants or ends a syllable. It never seems to connect
> two consonants together like the up sound.

The schwa is a vowel just like any other. The only difference in its usage
is that it is only used in syllables where the stress is NOT present (such
as in "fiRE", "diAcritic", "mayOrAl"). Basically, wherever there is a
noticeable syllable in a word, the 'ado' character is there as a kind of
'pseudo-vowel' to mark that there is no real vowel sound to that syllable.

> Should the schwa and the schwa r merge (array?) be treated separately from
> short, long and dipthongs?

Yes and no; its meaning is different from the rest of the set, but its
placing in words is no different. Use it in the same way as you would any
other vowel symbol, but only to mark lack of stress/sound.

> Isn't there the same relationship between unstressed
> ado and up and the unstressed
> array and urge?

Yes. 'Array' and 'err' are the rhotic variants of 'ado' and 'up'.

> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. Hugh, is there any other unstressed vowels?

The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are ever
used in non-stressed positions (such as in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
"carrYIng").

Hugh



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On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:29:58PM +0100, Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>
> > Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> > P.S. Hugh, is there any other unstressed vowels?
>
> The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are ever
> used in non-stressed positions (such as in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
> "carrYIng").

How about the 'o' in "radio", for starters?

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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