Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Wow! There are more people here than I first thought :) I'm glad you guys are still reading the postings.

Off the top my head I only know of Mac versions of Lionspaw, Androcles and Ghoti. I can download the Mac versions of the Androcles and Ghoti fonts from Ross DeMeyere's site, but since Lionel Ghoti's site has been shut down I have no way of getting hold of Lionspaw in Mac format. If anyone has it, please e-mail it to me as soon as possible.

If there are any more Mac fonts out there besides the ones I've mentioned, email them to me as well!

Thanks
Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee <mailto:leehickenlooper@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] SHAVIAN FONTS LIST

I'm a Mac person too!

Lee Hickenlooper

on 3/26/02 11:27 PM, RSRICHMOND@aol.com <mailto:RSRICHMOND@aol.com> wrote:



Hugh Birkenhead says:

>>At present the list only includes PC-compatible typefaces - if there is
interest I will go in search of Mac fonts too<<

I need Mac fonts - does anyone else?

Bob Richmond

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British American transcription problem

Bob,

..as for the y in "prypaziSan", I think we need to
determine how we are going to handle the British short
o /Q/ which is what Read had in mind for [o]
the sound in "on".

propaziSan would be approximately /praw-p@-'zi-S@n/ in
RP or BBC-E [the aw is a rounded but very short]

Shaw SAMPA/Kirshenbaum convention
o = Q
y = A
Y = O [awe]
O = @U

[The complete IPA/SAMPA phonetic alphabet can be found
at http://groups.yahoogroups.com/saundspel/files]
For more on SAMPA see,
http://www.unifon.org/sampa.html


This is a continuing problem in all pan dialect or
diaphonic phonemic writing systems.

GA speakers do not recognize any difference between
Q and A [o and y] as in the "dont bother father"

GA doUnt bAD@r fAD@r Shavian dOnt byHD fyHD
RP d@Unt bQD@ fAD@ dOnt boHa fyHa

---------------------------

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

> Hi Steve,

> Any particular reason for the y in prypaziSan?
> I suggested an 'o'. In fact,
> as an American, I don't see any difference between
> 'y' and 'o', and would
> never use 'y' for any English word to reflect my own
> pronunciation.

> If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> phonemically distinct in
> some dialect (presumably RP), I'd be interested in
> knowing about that.

> I'll be very busy at work this week, but I hope to
> work a bit on a converter for Shavian.

> --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > Here is the URL for the page I updated last night.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/transcriptions/shaw-alfa.html


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British American transcription problem

Bob,

..as for the y in "prypaziSan", I think we need to
determine how we are going to handle the British short
o /Q/ which is what Read had in mind for [o]
the sound in "on".

propaziSan would be approximately /praw-p@-'zi-S@n/ in
RP or BBC-E [the aw is a rounded but very short]

Shaw SAMPA/Kirshenbaum convention
o = Q
y = A
Y = O [awe]
O = @U

[The complete IPA/SAMPA phonetic alphabet can be found
at http://groups.yahoogroups.com/saundspel/files]
For more on SAMPA see,
http://www.unifon.org/sampa.html


This is a continuing problem in all pan dialect or
diaphonic phonemic writing systems.

GA speakers do not recognize any difference between
Q and A [o and y] as in the "dont bother father"

GA doUnt bAD@r fAD@r Shavian dOnt byHD fyHD
RP d@Unt bQD@ fAD@ dOnt boHa fyHa

---------------------------

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

> Hi Steve,

> Any particular reason for the y in prypaziSan?
> I suggested an 'o'. In fact,
> as an American, I don't see any difference between
> 'y' and 'o', and would
> never use 'y' for any English word to reflect my own
> pronunciation.

> If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> phonemically distinct in
> some dialect (presumably RP), I'd be interested in
> knowing about that.

> I'll be very busy at work this week, but I hope to
> work a bit on a converter for Shavian.

> --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > Here is the URL for the page I updated last night.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/transcriptions/shaw-alfa.html


=====


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I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure where it came from
originally, so I'm CC'ing all the people in the original message.

> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
>
> > as an American, I don't see any difference between
> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any English
> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
>
> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> > phonemically distinct in some dialect (presumably RP),
> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.

One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai currency unit), and
"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is "byt", and the third is
"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which is not rhotic); a literal
representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt". (However, I use Shavian to
mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so it would instead be
"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)

"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs "fyHD". Or "lost" and
"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom" vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster": "fostD" vs "fystD".

Is that any help? I can't really explain it; my father speaks RP and I just
grew up with it, so I know where the distinctions are -- but I can imagine
it might be difficult for someone who doesn't make the distinctions natively
to know which vowel would go where in RP.

(Note that not even all British dialects have the same vowel distribution:
for example, in Leicester, they often have /A/ (ASCII IPA /&/, IPA a-e
ligature) where RP has /y/ in words such as "master, path, grass", making
them rhyme with "has to, math, mass".)

So I make a distinction between: bit, beat, bet, bait, bat, bite, but, bot,
boat, foot, boot, bout, boit (if that were a word), baht, and bought. (But I
merge baht/bart and bought/bort in speech, though not in Shavian writing.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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Philip Newton schrieb:
> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> > Philip Newton schrieb:
> > > > Is it accessible via FTP?
> > >
> > > I think it's possible to create an extra FTP account.
> >
> > If you can create an extra account, brilliant, if not, it
> > doesn't matter.
>
> OK, you should be able to FTP there (= shavian.org) with username hugh,
> password ghoti. However, any files you put there will end up in
> http://shavian.org/hugh/ . This makes it a bit difficult to update the
main
> site.

OK - I've managed to connect to it with no problems! Thanks!

> Would it be OK for you to create a subdirectory under your FTP root
> directory to put the main web site in and then sending me email whenver
you
> want me to copy the pages over into the real website root? That might take
a
> day or five for me to get around to doing, but I'd feel better at the
moment
> not giving out the main site password (which would also allow shell
access).
> Then you could put any of your pages into / and pages for the root into,
> say, /mainsite (or whatever).
>
> That way, you can put pretty much any of your own content (within reason)
> under your FTP root. CGI scripts should be executable in any directory if
> they have a known suffix, for example .cgi .

That could work for the time being, I mean, at the moment there isn't a lot
to put up there anyway. The forums are all that I have to upload at the
moment. Just having the prefix of 'shavian.org' is good enough, no matter
what comes after it.

> I put two sample files in that directory: index.html and sample.cgi. So
the
> following links should work: http://shavian.org/hugh/ and
> http://shavian.org/hugh/sample.cgi (which is a really simple script that
> just prints "Hello, world!"). One thing to watch out for is that you have
to
> mark any CGI scripts as executable, for example with "quote site chmod 755
> sample.cgi" if you're using the command-line DOS FTP client. (Other
clients
> probably also have a way to let you execute 'chmod' on the server end.)

I use Cute FTP Pro so it can do all these. I had to 'chmod' the entire set
of files when I first uploaded them to the f2s.com webspace - I hope I can
find the original instructions telling me which ones to mark and which ones
not to.

> > How much exactly is the webspace/domain name combination
> > costing you per year?
>
> The webspace (with digitalspace.net) costs me $3/month, billed yearly ($36
> per year) and the domain name (with joker.com) costs me EUR 13.92/year. So
a
> total of round about 50-60 euros per year, depending on the exchange rate.

Would you like me to share the cost with you? I can easily send you a cheque
for up to half the yearly price to cover the costs for whatever I have
uploaded. It would make holding the domain cheaper for you as well.

[snip]
> By the way, Reply-To should be set for shavian2@... --
> that alias will reach me both at home and at work. I'd appreciate it if
> you'd send messages about the site to that address, then I can look into
it
> wherever I am at the moment, when I have some time. Some things are more
> easily done from home [mostly because the company firewall doesn't let out
> telnet or SSH connections, nor HTTP connections to ports other than 80]
and
> some I can do from either place.

OK. This message seems to have automatically set itself up for the correct
address so no altering needed this time.

> Cheers,
> Philip

Hugh

/hV /bxkanhed rOt (Hyu Börcenhed crivne):
> Philip Newton schrieb:
> >
> > a total of round about 50-60 euros per year, depending on
> > the exchange rate.
>
> Would you like me to share the cost with you? I can easily
> send you a cheque for up to half the yearly price to cover
> the costs for whatever I have uploaded. It would make
> holding the domain cheaper for you as well.

Well, I won't say no to that offer. A contribution of any amount
would be appreciated, and yes, it would also help defray the costs
of the domain name registration.

Tell you what -- I was thinking of registering "Softy", a
shareware font editor. They said their preferred payment method
is a cheque in pounds sterling, and it costs £15. Would you
be willing to pay that amount? That would cover both webspace
and domain costs; it's about EUR 25, so a bit less than half of
the combined cost for one year. If so, you could send them a
cheque and register the software in my name. Email me and I'll
tell you where to send it.

If you only wanted to contribute to the webspace costs (which is
also fine), then email me again and we'll work something out. Any
amount would be fine, really. I don't know how much it costs to
cash sterling cheques here but it should be possible. Pity England
is not part of the Eurozone ;)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

A quick analysis of disagreements between two attempted transcriptions of the GBS nonsense paragraph. - SB

Shavian {Ghoti} transcription below
I beleive the first transcription is by a GA speaker and the 2nd byi an RP speaker. The greatest differences are with respect to words containing an R combinations. These words are probably not pronounced the same in GA and RP. The differences between the two transcriptions indicate that even with pronunciation guide spelling, one may need a dictionary or a base pronunciation.
The letters marked in RED below indicate that it is not the same phonogram as found in Hugh's transcription. .

/cAN At lIZD wuz supCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a losenJ At H bXIal in /merWn /skwX v /hFpXIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljRds sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwIr stPI hQ fYHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI fYlOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArIar, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bIr wuz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFx Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktles emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swYlOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD bYHD t bIhEv sO wimziklI in suc weHD?] attempted transcription - some errors

GcAN At leZD woz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H berIal in /merIan /skwX v /hFpCIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArID, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bC woz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlas emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD boHD t bihEv sO wimsiklI in suc weHD?] Hugh's transcription

Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his billiards so highly. Quick! Quick! Hear the queer story how father and son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless empty instinct, ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo. [Why did he and his father bother to behave so whimsically in such weather?]

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A quick analysis of disagreements between two attempted transcriptions of the GBS nonsense paragraph. - SB

Shavian {Ghoti} transcription below
I beleive the first transcription is by a GA speaker and the 2nd byi an RP speaker. The greatest differences are with respect to words containing an R combinations. These words are probably not pronounced the same in GA and RP. The differences between the two transcriptions indicate that even with pronunciation guide spelling, one may need a dictionary or a base pronunciation.
The letters marked in RED below indicate that it is not the same phonogram as found in Hugh's transcription. .

/cAN At lIZD wuz supCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a losenJ At H bXIal in /merWn /skwX v /hFpXIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljRds sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwIr stPI hQ fYHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI fYlOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArIar, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bIr wuz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFx Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktles emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swYlOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD bYHD t bIhEv sO wimziklI in suc weHD?] attempted transcription - some errors

GcAN At leZD woz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H berIal in /merIan /skwX v /hFpCIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArID, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bC woz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlas emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD boHD t bihEv sO wimsiklI in suc weHD?] Hugh's transcription

Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his billiards so highly. Quick! Quick! Hear the queer story how father and son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless empty instinct, ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo. [Why did he and his father bother to behave so whimsically in such weather?]

<http://www.unifon.org/hotsuma.html> <mailto:stbett@...> <http://www.unifon.org/saundspel-promo.gif>



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Here are the Shavian fonts that I know of for the Mac platform:

Androcles & Ghoti- http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/androcles_ghoti_ps.sit
Lionspaw - http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/lionspaw.sit

If there are any problems with accessing or using these files, please let me know ASAP.

Hugh

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on 3/29/02 21:10, Hugh Birkenhead at h.birkenhead@... wrote:

> Here are the Shavian fonts that I know of for the Mac platform:
>
> Androcles & Ghoti-
> http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/androcles_ghoti_ps.sit
> Lionspaw - http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/lionspaw.sit
>
> If there are any problems with accessing or using these files, please let me
> know ASAP.
>
> Hugh

The official source for the androcles and ghoti fonts with documentation for
both platforms is at :
http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/info.html
(to those with websites, please do NOT mirror these fonts elsewhere, please
provide links to the above address.)

Thanks you,

Ross DeMeyere

------------------------------------------------------------
DeMeyere Design Incorporated
1951 McKinley ST NE
Minneapolis, MN 55418-4816

tel:612.789.2052
fax:612.789.8028

mailto:ross@...
http://www.demeyere.com/



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