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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-08-19 12:58:25 #
Subject: [shavian] Shaw keyboard

Toggle Shavian
I'm not very good at alphabet design or keyboard mapping,
therefore I have not been able to do this myself, but
perhaps someone out there will consider this:

If you are using shavian, would it not be better to have a
keyboard that types in shavian without having to
recode/decode the letters from the Roman alphabet? If you
had, let's say, for instance, the top row of keys,
qwertyuiop as the deep letters, and then when you press the
shift key, they become the tall letters. Thus you can take
48 characters and make them into 24 keys on the roman
keyboard. Hitting the shift key is not a problem, if it is
set up so that it makes sense to do so.

Would this not work?

--Star



=====
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From: pvandenbrink11
Date: 2002-08-19 18:00:33 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Shaw keyboard

Toggle Shavian
Hi Star Raven
Of course it would be better.
But it is a lot less expensive and time consuming to change software
rather than hardware.
We don't have enough people interested in Shaw to make it comercially
feasible to build and sell new hardware.
First things, first.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
________________________attached_________________________

--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> I'm not very good at alphabet design or keyboard mapping,
> therefore I have not been able to do this myself, but
> perhaps someone out there will consider this:
>
> If you are using shavian, would it not be better to have a
> keyboard that types in shavian without having to
> recode/decode the letters from the Roman alphabet? If you
> had, let's say, for instance, the top row of keys,
> qwertyuiop as the deep letters, and then when you press the
> shift key, they become the tall letters. Thus you can take
> 48 characters and make them into 24 keys on the roman
> keyboard. Hitting the shift key is not a problem, if it is
> set up so that it makes sense to do so.
>
> Would this not work?
>
> --Star
>
>
>
> =====
> "You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
> --Julius, Planet of the Apes
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com



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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-08-19 20:37:55 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shaw keyboard

Toggle Shavian
no no no.... you misunderstood me. I dont intend to change
the hardware, just the keyboard mapping to something that
has nothing to do with the roman representation of the
sounds that shavian represents. There are 26 letters that
are characters in roman. The shift key would become a kind
of "flip" key. Let's just assume that one put all of the
deep letters on the top row--ignore the roman letters up
there, this is just a different idea of mapping--then when
the shift key is pressed, it makes a deep letter into a
tall letter. For instances "q" would be "bib" while "Q"
would be the voiceless "peep" or vice-versa. This is not a
hardware change.

Also, this would leave two buttons which is equal to four
characters, let's say that we map shavian characters to
every letter but z and x. That leaves z, Z, x, and X open
for "whitewheat," or the namer dot, or whatever else.

Why should we be trying to fit the Shavian character set to
the roman alphabet that we are trying to rid ourselves of?
If the alphabet were done this way, that is, make the shift
key "flip" the letter or change it into its pair, then
typing speed would increase--I'm sure of it!

--Star

--- pvandenbrink11 <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> Hi Star Raven
> Of course it would be better.
> But it is a lot less expensive and time consuming to
> change software
> rather than hardware.
> We don't have enough people interested in Shaw to make it
> comercially
> feasible to build and sell new hardware.
> First things, first.
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> ________________________attached_________________________
>
> --- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > I'm not very good at alphabet design or keyboard
> mapping,
> > therefore I have not been able to do this myself, but
> > perhaps someone out there will consider this:
> >
> > If you are using shavian, would it not be better to
> have a
> > keyboard that types in shavian without having to
> > recode/decode the letters from the Roman alphabet? If
> you
> > had, let's say, for instance, the top row of keys,
> > qwertyuiop as the deep letters, and then when you press
> the
> > shift key, they become the tall letters. Thus you can
> take
> > 48 characters and make them into 24 keys on the roman
> > keyboard. Hitting the shift key is not a problem, if it
> is
> > set up so that it makes sense to do so.
> >
> > Would this not work?
> >
> > --Star
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
> > --Julius, Planet of the Apes
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> > http://www.hotjobs.com
>
>


=====
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--Julius, Planet of the Apes

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From: Steve Bett
Date: 2002-08-19 22:53:22 #
Subject: [shavian] Tolkein's Tengwar as a reform alphabet

Toggle Shavian
John,

You suggested Tolkein's Tengwar from Lord of the Rings
as an alternative to the Shaw alphabet.

I had Tengwar mixed up with another one of Tolkein's
Runic scripts.

Tengwar is detailed enough to represent English.
However, I think it was designed to be exotic rather
than simple.

Here is an example of some of the consonants.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes-tengwar.gif

The characters are certainly not models of
distinctiveness - as with Eurunic, the letters look
quite similar except for the details.

The recognition value of the word forms are more
opaque than Shavian.

The vowels are marked with a kind of point system
similar in some respects to Hebrew. As a code it
works -- All of the phonemes are represented. As
something simple to read, it does not.

Regards,

Steve

--- aesir <aesir@...> wrote:

> > I like Tolkein's runic based notations but I don't
think they have quite enough characters to be fully
phonemic as a writing system for present day English
speech.

> Seriously? This is curvy, elvish alphabet, not the
> faux-runic one. Are there
> ANY sounds it cannot represent?

REF:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes.html

The Eurunic characters are inserted into a chart for
IPA so all of the IPA for English sound signs are
represented.

Eurunic was commissioned by a video game company. It
was supposed to be exotic - not necessarily practical.

--Steve

=====

To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
send a blank email to saundspel-subscribe@...

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From: Scott Harrison
Date: 2002-08-20 10:49:32 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Tolkein's Tengwar as a reform alphabet

Toggle Shavian
Hi,

I actually took notes in college in English using the Tengwar
script. It worked quite well. And once one got used to reading it
there were no real problems. At first there are a few letters that look
similar to each other, and therefore a bit confusing. However, the same
thing can be said about Shavian. The only real problem with using
Tengwar is the vowel system which made it rather non-pleasant in getting
it to work on a computer. However, if you have a computer system than
can handle alphabets like Devanagari, then Tengwar should work as well.

--Scott

On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 11:52 , Steve Bett wrote:

> John,
>
> You suggested Tolkein's Tengwar from Lord of the Rings
> as an alternative to the Shaw alphabet.
>
> I had Tengwar mixed up with another one of Tolkein's
> Runic scripts.
>
> Tengwar is detailed enough to represent English.
> However, I think it was designed to be exotic rather
> than simple.
>
> Here is an example of some of the consonants.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes-tengwar.gif
>
> The characters are certainly not models of
> distinctiveness - as with Eurunic, the letters look
> quite similar except for the details.
>
> The recognition value of the word forms are more
> opaque than Shavian.
>
> The vowels are marked with a kind of point system
> similar in some respects to Hebrew. As a code it
> works -- All of the phonemes are represented. As
> something simple to read, it does not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> --- aesir <aesir@...> wrote:
>
>>> I like Tolkein's runic based notations but I don't
> think they have quite enough characters to be fully
> phonemic as a writing system for present day English
> speech.
>
>> Seriously? This is curvy, elvish alphabet, not the
>> faux-runic one. Are there
>> ANY sounds it cannot represent?
>
> REF:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes.html
>
> The Eurunic characters are inserted into a chart for
> IPA so all of the IPA for English sound signs are
> represented.
>
> Eurunic was commissioned by a video game company. It
> was supposed to be exotic - not necessarily practical.
>
> --Steve
>
> =====
>
> To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
> send a blank email to saundspel-subscribe@...
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-08-20 15:14:04 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Tolkein's Tengwar as a reform alphabet

Toggle Shavian
This is an interesting alphabet, but I would like to know
more about it. Although, how do you tell someone that you
are using the alphabet from Tolkien's world I'm not sure,
:)

Love and luck,
Star

--- Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I actually took notes in college in English using the
> Tengwar
> script. It worked quite well. And once one got used to
> reading it
> there were no real problems. At first there are a few
> letters that look
> similar to each other, and therefore a bit confusing.
> However, the same
> thing can be said about Shavian. The only real problem
> with using
> Tengwar is the vowel system which made it rather
> non-pleasant in getting
> it to work on a computer. However, if you have a
> computer system than
> can handle alphabets like Devanagari, then Tengwar should
> work as well.
>
> --Scott
>
> On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 11:52 , Steve Bett wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > You suggested Tolkein's Tengwar from Lord of the Rings
> > as an alternative to the Shaw alphabet.
> >
> > I had Tengwar mixed up with another one of Tolkein's
> > Runic scripts.
> >
> > Tengwar is detailed enough to represent English.
> > However, I think it was designed to be exotic rather
> > than simple.
> >
> > Here is an example of some of the consonants.
> >
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes-tengwar.gif
> >
> > The characters are certainly not models of
> > distinctiveness - as with Eurunic, the letters look
> > quite similar except for the details.
> >
> > The recognition value of the word forms are more
> > opaque than Shavian.
> >
> > The vowels are marked with a kind of point system
> > similar in some respects to Hebrew. As a code it
> > works -- All of the phonemes are represented. As
> > something simple to read, it does not.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --- aesir <aesir@...> wrote:
> >
> >>> I like Tolkein's runic based notations but I don't
> > think they have quite enough characters to be fully
> > phonemic as a writing system for present day English
> > speech.
> >
> >> Seriously? This is curvy, elvish alphabet, not the
> >> faux-runic one. Are there
> >> ANY sounds it cannot represent?
> >
> > REF:
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/scripts/runes.html
> >
> > The Eurunic characters are inserted into a chart for
> > IPA so all of the IPA for English sound signs are
> > represented.
> >
> > Eurunic was commissioned by a video game company. It
> > was supposed to be exotic - not necessarily practical.
> >
> > --Steve
> >
> > =====
> >
> > To join SAUNDSPEL - The Phonology Forum
> > send a blank email to
> saundspel-subscribe@...
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> > http://www.hotjobs.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>


=====
"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
--Julius, Planet of the Apes

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From: Dennis Falk
Date: 2002-08-20 15:43:27 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Tolkein's Tengwar as a reform alphabet

Toggle Shavian
On 8/20/2002 at 7:13 AM Star Raven wrote:

>This is an interesting alphabet, but I would like to know
>more about it. Although, how do you tell someone that you
>are using the alphabet from Tolkien's world I'm not sure,
>:)

This is a good starting place:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tengwar.htm

Two links (of many!) from the above page for writing English (and others) with Tengwar:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/english.htm
http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/index.html (Downloadable ebooks in PDF and MS Word, plus font pack)

A note: Tolkien _did_ consider the use of Tengwar for English.. Others since his death in the 1970s have taken this further, and have developed Tengwar systems for a number of other languages- Swedish, Dutch, Eperanto, even Klingon, amongst others...

There are many resources from the Omniglot page above, and some of them have further links. Interest in Tengwar has long dated back to the original publication of Tolkien's books since the '40s/'50s.

D.M.Falk





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From: rubik67
Date: 2002-08-20 22:13:27 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha

Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> "Thou musteth leave
> Androcles's Shavianeth intacteth with no changeseth of any kindeth"
>
> Classic! :-P
>
> But that's not what it's about. We are not in the position to
change an alphabet that is not OURS to change. This is simply about
the fact that you can't sell an alphabet as Shavian if it ISN'T
SHAVIAN!

And yet there's no complaints at all about the so called "Shaw
Alphabet" at shawalphabet.com, even though it bears no resemblance
whatsoever to the Kingsley Read font, even though it claims to do so.
Things to make you go hmmm... L8r.




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From: rubik67
Date: 2002-08-20 22:16:40 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: ha-ha vs. hung & Air vs. Urge in Shavian

Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@y..., "stbett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> It would be better to call any revision by another name.

OK, how about I call mine "modified" Shavian, then? Something
like "Modified" Hepburn for Japanese romaji. BTW, has anyone
seen "unmodified" Hepburn and could tell me what the difference is?
L8r.



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From: rubik67
Date: 2002-08-20 22:28:11 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Shaw keyboard

Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Why should we be trying to fit the Shavian character set to
> the roman alphabet that we are trying to rid ourselves of?
> If the alphabet were done this way, that is, make the shift
> key "flip" the letter or change it into its pair, then
> typing speed would increase--I'm sure of it!

One reason to do so is because people are familiar with it. Another
would be that the key mappings would remain logically consistent is
someone used a different keyboard layout, eg. Dvorak. Anyway, is the
key map layout in Androcles really logical? Given everyone's
familiarity with the Roman alphabet, it seems to be slapped together
willy nilly. True, the voiced and voiceless letters are paired up,
the r sounds are all on the same line, and mirrored vowels are placed
together, but aside from that, the way each letter group is arranged
on each line doesn't seem to follow any particular pattern that I
could see. switching to other keyboard layouts would only add to the
confusion. At least the way it is now, people can access, for
example, the "k" sound by typing the letter "k", and always will
access it by typing "k" regardless of which keyboard layout they're
using. L8r.



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