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Hi Sid

It would be nice to tailor our teaching to the individual, but most
societies do not have the resources to be so generous. In Canada, and
the USA, in public free education, they use the method that makes the
most efficient use of the teachers time. It is called the Look-Say
method or whole language instruction. It trains a child to recognise
words and guess new words from within context of the whole language.
It only works well with children who are facile and fully conversant
with English. In classes of privileged children, you can teach up to
85% of children adequate reading skill using this method alone. And
their reading speed is higher than childern who have learned
phonetically, although I suspect that the comprehension level are not
so positively skewed. Children who do poorly with this method,
especially ESL and slow language learners, can be taught remedially
through phonetics, but unfortunately that is given very, very low
priority in our schools.
Teaching reading through phonetics requires more student teacher
interaction and a high level of phonetic expertise on the part of the
teacher. It can not be delegated to a Teacher's Aide or volunteer.
Most teachers hate doing it that way in class, for a number of good
practical reasons. They prefer to reserve it for individual tutoring
sessions.

I have to disagree with your statement that those students who don't
pick up spelling will undoubtedly pick it up later reading books.
It is very problematic.
First, if you can't spell or sound out words, reading new material is
difficult and tiresome.
SECONDLY and Unfortunately Students are no longer allowed to repeat
material in school anymore. Children are no longer "held back"!!!!
How's that for New-speak for institutionalize ignorance.
Thirdly, Books and Libraries are no longer always available to modern
students.
We can not blame Teachers exclusively for these changes.

Regards, Paul V.


--- In shavian@..., "" <sidban2@e...> wrote:
> Why not just consider a number of methods since students are
individualistic too. Those who want to go for the spelling will do
so anyway and those who don't will undoubtedly pick it up reading
books. I presume the students are taught to read and eventually the
correct spelling will be learned if they are visually oriented. If
auditorily oriented then let them go for the spelling they enjoy but
they should be aware that there are conventional ways to spell words
and that may be a separate course from creative composition. --- On
Sun 06/22, Craig Butz < shavian@w... > wrote:
> From: Craig Butz [mailto: shavian@w...]To: shavian@y...: Sun, 22
Jun 2003 20:25:25 -0400Subject: Re: [shavian] Digest Number 468This
sort of knee-jerk reaction to a simplified 3rd-hand story is
troubling.It would seem to me that people on a spelling reform forum
would be the mostlikely to look at a sketchy description of such an
educational practice anddeduce WHY teachers might find such an
approach effective, even though it atfirst seems counter-
intuitive.English spelling is frustrating. As a high school teacher,
I have workedwith numerous "low-ability" teenagers who simply refuse
to write. While Ihave no quantitative evidence, my guess is that
most of them had negativeexperiences with writing and being told that
they did it wrong at a veryearly age. Punishing children for
miSSpelling (double-s, Scott) words meanstelling them they are wrong
for screwing up the exceptions to the rulesbefore they have even
learned what the rules of English phonics a
> re.Becoming comfortable with those rules takes time and is
inhibited by thecrazy rules of English. If a young child
writes "wimmen" instead of "women"when they are grasping after
examples to confirm the rules, and a teachermarks out the "im" and
replaces it with an "o", it just confuses things, andrepeated failure
doesn't create correct spelling, it just makes many kidsfear and hate
writing.Obviously, "correct" spelling is going to be positively
reinforced. Wedon't punish children when they go through the speech-
acquisition stage inwhich they say things like "She goed to school,"
and they work out theregularity of the system first, and then pick up
the exceptions just fine.Why shouldn't teachers take a cue on how to
help children learn writtenlanguage from the way millions of years of
evolution have worked out for ourspecies to learn spoken language?
From what I have read about such approaches, they allow kids to
startwriting far earlier, because they aren't limited to the
> words they'velearned to read. Realize that traditional reading
and spelling methods keepstudents away from hard-to-spell words that
are already in their spokenvocabulary for years. If they are afraid
of misspelling words, they quicklyteach themselves to write an easier
word whenever they want to use a hardone that they don't know how to
spell. While that may increase spellingaccuracy, it hardly advances
writing skills.One extremely impractical solution is to revamp the
entire spelling system.A much more workable solution is to allow kids
some flexibility when they'restarting out and then nudge them into
the standards as they become capableof handling them.I'd be
interested to hear everyone's reactions to this
article:http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0422/p14s01-lecs.htmCraigIn a
previous episode, shavian@... said:>> While talking
to a 1st>> grade teacher recently, (in California), she said
that>> her current methodology was to *not* punish child
> ren>> for mispelling words, but instead, let them
explore>> their creativity by spelling words any way they
want>> to. This horrified my wife, (also a school
teacher,>> but from a British-based system).> > This
would horrify me too! I can think of nothing uglier than the
attempts to> write English phonetically by using an outdated,
inflexible system of 26> letters > originally designed to write
Latin efficiently. Every attempt I have seen to> do > this has
resulted in some of the worst looking junk I have ever seen! And>
when > students are told to "Just spell it however you think it
should be spelled",> well, the result is confusion and a major
mess! That's not education.> Education must have structure,
because if everybody does it however they feel> like it, things
get out of hand very quickly. I have seen some of this stuff>
recently, and it was written by a local elementary student. I don't
really>
> know > why we pay teachers to do stuff like that!
>
>
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From an on-line article, here's a plan for a class asignment wher[e]
students debate simplified spelling, using US president Teddy
Roosevelt's involvment as the basis (it's part of teaching about
US history):

http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/01-1/lp238_05.shtml

Subject: History, Language Arts
Grade: 6-8, 9-12



Brief Description

Students stage debates about English spelling vs. simplified spelling.

Objectives

Students extend their knowledge of U.S. history as they explore the controversy about simplified spelling.

Keywords

spelling, simplified spelling, debate, U.S. history, Teddy Roosevelt

[....]

Extension: Invite each student to write a letter to the editor of the local paper, describing the debates and making a case for his or her position on simplified spelling.

Located by Cornell Kimball

Resource: www.implicty.org <http://www.implicty.org> [search on Roosevelt]
Bartlesby has digitized several magazines and other publications of the era

How do we get history teachers thinking about interesting topics such as this?
There is hardly anything in the history books about the events of 1906
Simplified Spelling Board founded, Brander Matthews gets TR interested, TR sends an executive order to the Govt. Printing Office. The SSB circulars are reprinted by the USGPO. [no. of copies? distribution?]. Favorable articles printed in several magazines. Spelling reform attacked in the editorials of the major Newspapers across the US. Roosevelt depicted in cartoons kicking the dictionary out of the White House. These were probably orchestrated by Roosevelt's enemies.


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It is nice to know some teachers expose their students to the issues
behind the need for simplified spelling. I would be surprised if any
grade 6 student is prepared to start over and learn to read from
scratch. The successful student tends to follow the party line, and I
doubt that Teachers ?exspouse? Phonetics.

Regards, Paul V.

_______________attach________________________________

--- In shavian@..., "Steve Bett" <sbett@m...> wrote:
> From an on-line article, here's a plan for a class asignment wher
[e]
> students debate simplified spelling, using US president Teddy
> Roosevelt's involvment as the basis (it's part of teaching about
> US history):
>
> http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/01-1/lp238_05.shtml
>
> Subject: History, Language Arts
> Grade: 6-8, 9-12
>
> Brief Description
> Students stage debates about English spelling vs. simplified
spelling.
> Objectives
> Students extend their knowledge of U.S. history as they explore the
controversy about simplified spelling.
> Keywords
> spelling, simplified spelling, debate, U.S. history, Teddy Roosevelt
> [....]
> Extension: Invite each student to write a letter to the editor of
the local paper, describing the debates and making a case for his or
her position on simplified spelling.
> Located by Cornell Kimball
>
> Resource: www.implicty.org [search on Roosevelt]
> Bartlesby has digitized several magazines and other publications of
the era
>
> How do we get history teachers thinking about interesting topics
such as this?
> There is hardly anything in the history books about the events of
1906
> Simplified Spelling Board founded, Brander Matthews gets TR
interested, TR sends an executive order to the Govt. Printing
Office. The SSB circulars are reprinted by the USGPO. [no. of
copies? distribution?]. Favorable articles printed in several
magazines. Spelling reform attacked in the editorials of the major
Newspapers across the US. Roosevelt depicted in cartoons kicking the
dictionary out of the White House. These were probably orchestrated
by Roosevelt's enemies.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos
Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005


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May I suggest using keyman.

http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman

I used it to create different keyboard layouts for Quickscript. Note that it can
interpret key combinations as one character (eg. 'sh' is automatically turned into 'S').

The windows 3.1 version works under windows '98 (and probably higher versions too) and is free.
Other versions (which allow usage of unicode fonts: characters above index 255) are for as far as
I know not free. (at least, the program used to create the layouts isn't. The other program used to
type with the layouts is free).

Ewout
http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net/

9-6-03 22:10:52, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

>I am currently working on a better keyboard layout, which will be more
>logical than the current. Until then I also use shavian in handwriting
>form. If anyone has the ability to aid me in this pursuit, I am not
>familliar with any alphabet creation programs in which I can do this.
>
>--Star
>
>--- carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:
>> I'm an American too. And some of the Shavian letters I do not use as
>> often as the Brittish would. I don't own a computer. But I do go to
>> the library to keep tabs on Shavian. Since I don't have a computer I
>> don't have the fonts. So, I just write in Shavian through
>> handwritting.
>
>
>=====
>"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"
>
>__________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ewout Stam" <teraiten@...>

> Note that it can interpret key combinations as one character
> (eg. 'sh' is automatically turned into 'S').

How would it behave with words like "mishap", "leaseholder", "messhall",
etc.?

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ewout Stam" <teraiten@...>

> Note that it can interpret key combinations as one character
> (eg. 'sh' is automatically turned into 'S').

How would it behave with words like "mishap", "leaseholder", "messhall",
etc.?

Hugh B


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yeah, uh, I'm using linux...
--- Ewout Stam <teraiten@...> wrote:
> May I suggest using keyman.
>
> http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman
>
> I used it to create different keyboard layouts for Quickscript. Note
> that it can
> interpret key combinations as one character (eg. 'sh' is
> automatically turned into 'S').
>
> The windows 3.1 version works under windows '98 (and probably higher
> versions too) and is free.
> Other versions (which allow usage of unicode fonts: characters above
> index 255) are for as far as
> I know not free. (at least, the program used to create the layouts
> isn't. The other program used to
> type with the layouts is free).
>
> Ewout
> http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net/
>
> 9-6-03 22:10:52, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> >I am currently working on a better keyboard layout, which will be
> more
> >logical than the current. Until then I also use shavian in
> handwriting
> >form. If anyone has the ability to aid me in this pursuit, I am not
> >familliar with any alphabet creation programs in which I can do
> this.
> >
> >--Star
> >
> >--- carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:
> >> I'm an American too. And some of the Shavian letters I do not use
> as
> >> often as the Brittish would. I don't own a computer. But I do go
> to
> >> the library to keep tabs on Shavian. Since I don't have a
> computer I
> >> don't have the fonts. So, I just write in Shavian through
> >> handwritting.
> >
> >
> >=====
> >"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
> killing...Hello!"
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> >http://calendar.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

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06/30/03 7:07:13 PM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

>yeah, uh, I'm using linux...
>--- Ewout Stam <teraiten@...> wrote:
>> May I suggest using keyman.
>>
>> http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman
>

For Linux users, I whole-heartedly recommend Yudit
http://www.yudit.org/

It can do all the things this Keyman prgram can do, and more (such as full
Unicode support) and it's totally free!

It doesn't have a graphical layout program, but it uses a text file to map one
character to another. It's a very capable program, but I found that it isn't
perhaps the most user friendly program, yet it is easier than trying to remap
your keyboard in Linux!

--
Ethan




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1-7-03 0:20:46, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ewout Stam" <teraiten@...>
>
>> Note that it can interpret key combinations as one character
>> (eg. 'sh' is automatically turned into 'S').
>

It does not have to be 'sh' per se. You can use a different character too:
'sx' '`s' even 'sq' can be automatically converted to 'S'.

I think doubling the character is the best solution: 'ss' would seldom occur
in phonetic writing such as Shavian, and can therefore be interpreted by the software
as 'S'.

>How would it behave with words like "mishap", "leaseholder", "messhall",
>etc.?
>
>Hugh B
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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1-7-03 1:31:18, Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

>06/30/03 7:07:13 PM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
>>yeah, uh, I'm using linux...
>>--- Ewout Stam <teraiten@...> wrote:
>>> May I suggest using keyman.
>>>
>>> http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman
>>
>
>For Linux users, I whole-heartedly recommend Yudit
>http://www.yudit.org/
>
>It can do all the things this Keyman prgram can do, and more (such as full
>Unicode support) and it's totally free!
>
>It doesn't have a graphical layout program, but it uses a text file to map one
>character to another. It's a very capable program, but I found that it isn't
>perhaps the most user friendly program, yet it is easier than trying to remap
>your keyboard in Linux!

I don't think keyman (well, at least the win 3.1 version I use) has a graphical interface either. It interprets
code like this:

'k' + 'k' > 'ç'

'n' + 'n' > 'N'
'n' + 'k' > 'Nk'
'n' + 'g' > 'Ng'

'o' + 'o' > 'Y'
'o' + 'i' > 'q'
'o' + 'u' > 'O'

I think this is not too difficult to learn.

Yudit seems to work in a similar way, except its free.

NOTE: I will be gone on holiday now, for two weeks, so mind this if you're waiting for a reply from me




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