Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

--- In shavian@..., Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@c...> wrote:
> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>
> If she
> believes QS has design flaws, then tell us what they are. If she
is
> just expressing her personal preference for one alphabet over the
other,
> then just say so and be done with it.

After reading the 28 (?) page guide to QuikScript, I found that
the "easier, more logical" spelling was only "easier" and "more
logical" in that "err" and "array" were combined into one character.
Other than that, QuikScript seemed to be as complex and copnvoluted
as Kanji. I may be mistaken, but I'm also pretty sure that somewhere
in there, there were even character combos that were actually
identical to each other, but with radically different pronunciations.

> Do you really believe you can lift the pen from the paper between
every
> symbol and still write as fast as someone making very few pen
lifts?
> Time yourself printing a paragraph in Roman versus the same
paragraph
> in cursive. There are many people who print rather than write in
> cursive, but I've never heard anyone claim it was because they
could do
> it faster.

I can print faster than I can write in Roman. Why? It's been over a
decade since I wrote much of anything except for my name, and trying
to remember the shapes for cursive is somewhat painful, while I've
been printing something just about every day of my life since I
stopped writing cursive. It wasn't something intentional, just
something that happened.

> That is a question of esthetics. And I can appreciate that. I
don't
> agree with you, but I don't have to. It is the smugness with which
so
> many Shavianphiles express their opinion that I find disagreeable.
I
> also find it interesting that so many people dismiss Read's later
work
> out of hand as if the darned "Androcles and the Lion" was the last
word.

I agree completely that "Androcles" is far from the last word on the
subject. I disagree that QuikScript was necessary in order to correct
the flaws. All that needed doing was changing a couple of names
(eg. "err" to me sounds identical to "air", so I call it "ermine"
instead), flipping a couple of pairs, and adding a couple of
characters for the "x" sounds, perhaps a "wh" sound for those who
feel the need. Otherwise, it's pretty close to perfect as it is. L8r.



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--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> I have emailed it to you.

Hey Hugh, how about uploading it to the group? I'm sure I'm not the
only other one on this list who'd be interested in such a program.
Thanks in advance. L8r.



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--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:

> That's it. That's all I have. I am going to spend this week job
hunting
> and editing, but in my spare time, I will type up the long since
> promised keyboard arrangement that I think works for me. Once I feel
> confident with that, then I will begin to transliterate works,
perhaps
> including my own novels. This will help me improve my reading and
> writing speed in shavian I am sure.

Not necessarily. I've recently finished transliterating 140 8.5x11
pages into Shaw, but it hasn't helped my reasing speed much. Just
keep in mind, as you spend this time transliterating, don't forget to
take time out to read what you've written. Only then will your
reading speed improve. L8r.



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--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:

> And another thing when I originally said the Original Shavian
is better looking than the later onesl; I had in mind the Shaw
Alphabet made after QS. Which seems to be the sloppiest one ever.

Oh? Do tell! I wasn't aware there was another one. Where could I find
some information about this "Third Shavian" script? L8r.



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07/14/03 8:27:17 PM, "rubik67" <rubik67@...> wrote:

>--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
>wrote:
>
>> That's it. That's all I have. I am going to spend this week job
>hunting
>> and editing, but in my spare time, I will type up the long since
>> promised keyboard arrangement that I think works for me. Once I feel
>> confident with that, then I will begin to transliterate works,
>perhaps
>> including my own novels. This will help me improve my reading and
>> writing speed in shavian I am sure.
>
>Not necessarily. I've recently finished transliterating 140 8.5x11
>pages into Shaw, but it hasn't helped my reasing speed much. Just
>keep in mind, as you spend this time transliterating, don't forget to
>take time out to read what you've written. Only then will your
>reading speed improve. L8r.

I can concur with that statement. I've transliterated quite a bit, and it
didn't help out my reading. You can write Shavian every day, but it won't do
much for your reading proficiency unless you read it. There's no good
substitute for reading!

--
Ethan

Ravens are special!

He giveth to the beast his food,
and to the young ravens which cry.
Psalm 147:9



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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Craig
>
> You are correct that someone scanning quickly through my Website
> www.shawalphabet.com might come away with the mistaken impression
> that the Revised Shaw Alphabet is the equivalent of the Original
> Shavian Alphabet.

Even looking at it pretty in depth. The fact that your "Shaw
Alphabet" has next to nothing to do with the original Shavian is
hardly mentioned at all.

> When I first discussed this matter with the other members of the
> Shavian Group, more than 2 years ago, it was suggested that I
present
> my revisions to the community as a whole, and see if some of them
> would become incorporated into acceptable standard version of the
> Shaw Alphabet for the Internet Community.

Didn't Shaw say that all letters were to be written with a single
stroke?

> Perhaps, I could call it the American Shaw Alphabet, to distinguish
> it from the Original British Shavian Alphabet.
> Or perhaps the Rosh Alphabet. (Revision of Shavian)

Why? The original Shaw Alphabet works just fine, regardless of
dialect. L8r.


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07/14/03 8:20:48 PM, "rubik67" <rubik67@...> wrote:

>--- In shavian@..., Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@c...> wrote:
>> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>>
>> If she
>> believes QS has design flaws, then tell us what they are. If she
>is
>> just expressing her personal preference for one alphabet over the
>other,
>> then just say so and be done with it.
>
>After reading the 28 (?) page guide to QuikScript, I found that
>the "easier, more logical" spelling was only "easier" and "more
>logical" in that "err" and "array" were combined into one character.
>Other than that, QuikScript seemed to be as complex and copnvoluted
>as Kanji. I may be mistaken, but I'm also pretty sure that somewhere
>in there, there were even character combos that were actually
>identical to each other, but with radically different pronunciations.
>
>> Do you really believe you can lift the pen from the paper between
>every
>> symbol and still write as fast as someone making very few pen
>lifts?
>> Time yourself printing a paragraph in Roman versus the same
>paragraph
>> in cursive. There are many people who print rather than write in
>> cursive, but I've never heard anyone claim it was because they
>could do
>> it faster.
>
>I can print faster than I can write in Roman. Why? It's been over a
>decade since I wrote much of anything except for my name, and trying
>to remember the shapes for cursive is somewhat painful, while I've
>been printing something just about every day of my life since I
>stopped writing cursive. It wasn't something intentional, just
>something that happened.
>
>> That is a question of esthetics. And I can appreciate that. I
>don't
>> agree with you, but I don't have to. It is the smugness with which
>so
>> many Shavianphiles express their opinion that I find disagreeable.
>I
>> also find it interesting that so many people dismiss Read's later
>work
>> out of hand as if the darned "Androcles and the Lion" was the last
>word.
>
>I agree completely that "Androcles" is far from the last word on the
>subject. I disagree that QuikScript was necessary in order to correct
>the flaws. All that needed doing was changing a couple of names
>(eg. "err" to me sounds identical to "air", so I call it "ermine"
>instead), flipping a couple of pairs, and adding a couple of
>characters for the "x" sounds, perhaps a "wh" sound for those who
>feel the need. Otherwise, it's pretty close to perfect as it is. L8r.

I've been avoiding wading into the fray here, but I think I should add my piece.

I tend to agree pretty much with the statement above. I think Shavian is pretty
good the way it is, with the exception of a few of the letter names. For
instance, I don't think that Array is a good choice for that letter, since many
people pronounce it differently. Is it a-ray or er-ay? I don't think I use the
unaccented sound at the beginning of a word in my dialect of American English,
so it might have to be a word like "later", which ends in an unaccented "er".

As for the Quickscript alphabet, I did look at it, but wasn't very impressed!
It looked too irregular, too much like handwriting to me, I guess. I didn't
like some of the differences in letters, and I also don't think that a cursive-
like variation is necessary or even good for a language. Reason? It's too
difficult to read, especially for young children. It's also more difficult for
the printed page and for use on computers. Also it does tend to look sloppy.
No offense meant to anybody who speaks Arabic, but that alphabet would not get
my favor! I can read several different alphabets, including Cyrillic, Greek,
Hebrew, Shavian, and of course Latin. But the Arabic alphabet gives me
headaches!

--
Ethan

Ravens are special!

He giveth to the beast his food,
and to the young ravens which cry.
Psalm 147:9



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Thanks, I plan to. :)

--Star

--- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > That's it. That's all I have. I am going to spend this week job
> hunting
> > and editing, but in my spare time, I will type up the long since
> > promised keyboard arrangement that I think works for me. Once I
> feel
> > confident with that, then I will begin to transliterate works,
> perhaps
> > including my own novels. This will help me improve my reading and
> > writing speed in shavian I am sure.
>
> Not necessarily. I've recently finished transliterating 140 8.5x11
> pages into Shaw, but it hasn't helped my reasing speed much. Just
> keep in mind, as you spend this time transliterating, don't forget to
>
> take time out to read what you've written. Only then will your
> reading speed improve. L8r.
>
>
>


=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"

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Star:

Thank you for your considered reply.

Star Raven wrote:

> Paige, I am sorry if you percieved that I had misconstrued your
> comments as a personal attack. Perhaps we have taken a misstep in
> solving a disagreement. Hugh was almost entirely correct in his
> defense, and I am amazed that you read more into a reply I made early
> one morning with the intent to cease lurking, than I had intended.

My enjoyment of QS and the desire to awaken others to what I perceive as

its
virtues may lead to my being overly critical of some of the posts here.
I sometimes feel I have to defend QS against unfair attacks, which might

lead
people new to the idea of alternate alphabets to dismiss QS as an
alternative to TO. My apologies to you if I seemed to get carried
away. Your
note was just a catalyst that happened to hit home with me.

I understand this is a Shavian list. When I first came upon this list,
my hopeful
expectation was that all of Read's alphabet designs would be
appreciated, but I
have been quite disappointed to find so little interest in QS here.
That is why I started the Read_Alphabet list so that those interested in

QS
would have a place of their own.

> Therefore, please allow me to expand on my own thoughts and
> experiences.
>

snip

>
> Secondly, I am rather confused by your latching on to me as a target
of
> your frustration with those of us that prefer the /Androlocles/
> Shavain.

I do not view you as a target and did not intend to give that
impression. Obviously, people have a right to choose which Read
alphabet they like the best. My complaint was against what I viewed as
unfair criticisms of QS.

> I feel that I must defend the work as it is a starting point
> that must not be forgotten. Granted it is incomplete or incorrect in
> places, but it is a milestone for alternate alphabets. I do not
dismiss
> Read's later word out of hand, I only prefer Shavian. I don't like
> writing Japanese characters any more than I like writing in shorthand
> (which I have studied but found difficult to adopt) or in quickscript.

> Perhaps because of this, I have been too harsh on these writing
> systems. I took a year of japanese and still think of hiragana, ect.,
> as a bunch of squiggles, because I can no longer read it. When I say
> things against QS, it is not a personal attack or a defense against a
> personal attack, it is merely a statement, perhaps an incorrect or
> misstated one, of my own personal feelings.
>
> I referred to QS as sloppy, but so is cursive. The connections make it

> difficult for me to read, and I write in half cursive anyway.

Cursive TO developed connectors to avoid pen lifts, and I agree with you

when people are writing quickly with bad habits developed over years,
cursive can be both sloppy and impossible to read.. But QS does not use

connectors. The alphabet is designed so that many letters will connect
from their ending point to the beginning of the next letter. If the
letter does not naturally connect, then it should be separate from the
following letter. The only exception, I believe, is the descending "th"

sound., which Read permitted to be brought back up to the writing line
in the QS manual. Therefore, it should not be difficult to read QS just

because it is more "cursive" than Shavian.

> If you would like, my TO handwriting is awful and possibly this
translated to
> my attempts at QS and both Gregg and Pitman shorthand styles. I do
know
> that there is a list for QS. This is a list for Shaw. The alphabet has

> already been designed, but to keep the list active we tend to quibble
> about unimportant things.

I won't argue that point.

snip
>
> In stead of all of this quibbling and arguing and back and forth, why
> don't we focus on transliteration and improving other aspects of it,
as
> in typing and tricks to learning to write it quickly? There are
> thousands of free works on ProjectGutenberg.org, and these have not
> been transliterated into shavian. Why can't we work on building a
> library of works in *Androlocles* Shaw and use the forum for questions

> about direct transliteration ("how do you pronounce 'Hermione'
> anyway?"), or editing of a work (Did you mean /on/ here or /up/?)?

I think the foregoing makes much more sense than quibbling.

> That said, as I know I tend to ramble, please disregard anything
> offensive and pay attention only to that with which you personally
> agree, so that I will not have flamed or "been overly defensive" about

> anything said here.

My personal credo is to avoid intentional offensiveness, and I do not
read what others write looking for ways to be offended. On the other
hand, I cannot be responsible if others choose to be offended by what I
write. Free speech would be hamstrung under those conditions. There is

no Constitutional right not to be offended.

>snip

>>
> __________________________________
>


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Star:

Thank you for your considered reply.

Star Raven wrote:

> Paige, I am sorry if you percieved that I had misconstrued your
> comments as a personal attack. Perhaps we have taken a misstep in
> solving a disagreement. Hugh was almost entirely correct in his
> defense, and I am amazed that you read more into a reply I made early
> one morning with the intent to cease lurking, than I had intended.

My enjoyment of QS and the desire to awaken others to what I perceive as

its
virtues may lead to my being overly critical of some of the posts here.
I sometimes feel I have to defend QS against unfair attacks, which might

lead
people new to the idea of alternate alphabets to dismiss QS as an
alternative to TO. My apologies to you if I seemed to get carried
away. Your
note was just a catalyst that happened to hit home with me.

I understand this is a Shavian list. When I first came upon this list,
my hopeful
expectation was that all of Read's alphabet designs would be
appreciated, but I
have been quite disappointed to find so little interest in QS here.
That is why I started the Read_Alphabet list so that those interested in

QS
would have a place of their own.

> Therefore, please allow me to expand on my own thoughts and
> experiences.
>

snip

>
> Secondly, I am rather confused by your latching on to me as a target
of
> your frustration with those of us that prefer the /Androlocles/
> Shavain.

I do not view you as a target and did not intend to give that
impression. Obviously, people have a right to choose which Read
alphabet they like the best. My complaint was against what I viewed as
unfair criticisms of QS.

> I feel that I must defend the work as it is a starting point
> that must not be forgotten. Granted it is incomplete or incorrect in
> places, but it is a milestone for alternate alphabets. I do not
dismiss
> Read's later word out of hand, I only prefer Shavian. I don't like
> writing Japanese characters any more than I like writing in shorthand
> (which I have studied but found difficult to adopt) or in quickscript.

> Perhaps because of this, I have been too harsh on these writing
> systems. I took a year of japanese and still think of hiragana, ect.,
> as a bunch of squiggles, because I can no longer read it. When I say
> things against QS, it is not a personal attack or a defense against a
> personal attack, it is merely a statement, perhaps an incorrect or
> misstated one, of my own personal feelings.
>
> I referred to QS as sloppy, but so is cursive. The connections make it

> difficult for me to read, and I write in half cursive anyway.

Cursive TO developed connectors to avoid pen lifts, and I agree with you

when people are writing quickly with bad habits developed over years,
cursive can be both sloppy and impossible to read.. But QS does not use

connectors. The alphabet is designed so that many letters will connect
from their ending point to the beginning of the next letter. If the
letter does not naturally connect, then it should be separate from the
following letter. The only exception, I believe, is the descending "th"

sound., which Read permitted to be brought back up to the writing line
in the QS manual. Therefore, it should not be difficult to read QS just

because it is more "cursive" than Shavian.

> If you would like, my TO handwriting is awful and possibly this
translated to
> my attempts at QS and both Gregg and Pitman shorthand styles. I do
know
> that there is a list for QS. This is a list for Shaw. The alphabet has

> already been designed, but to keep the list active we tend to quibble
> about unimportant things.

I won't argue that point.

snip
>
> In stead of all of this quibbling and arguing and back and forth, why
> don't we focus on transliteration and improving other aspects of it,
as
> in typing and tricks to learning to write it quickly? There are
> thousands of free works on ProjectGutenberg.org, and these have not
> been transliterated into shavian. Why can't we work on building a
> library of works in *Androlocles* Shaw and use the forum for questions

> about direct transliteration ("how do you pronounce 'Hermione'
> anyway?"), or editing of a work (Did you mean /on/ here or /up/?)?

I think the foregoing makes much more sense than quibbling.

> That said, as I know I tend to ramble, please disregard anything
> offensive and pay attention only to that with which you personally
> agree, so that I will not have flamed or "been overly defensive" about

> anything said here.

My personal credo is to avoid intentional offensiveness, and I do not
read what others write looking for ways to be offended. On the other
hand, I cannot be responsible if others choose to be offended by what I
write. Free speech would be hamstrung under those conditions. There is

no Constitutional right not to be offended.

>snip

>>
> __________________________________
>


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