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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2004-04-06 14:46:47 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Number of American speakers vs. British Speakers

Toggle Shavian
www.dictionary.com <http://www.dictionary.com>
The pronunciation key is easily interpreted into Shavian. I'll draw up a conversion chart if it doesn't appear obvious enough.

Oh well, even if it's obvious enough, I did it anyway!

http://mixsynth.fearfulsilence.com/shavian/ahdpronshaw.htm

Hugh B

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From: John Warner
Date: 2004-04-06 14:48:47 #
Subject: [shavian] dictionary choice

Toggle Shavian
I like the fact that English does not have a regulating body like the
French Academy - as I view them as language killers. They are like King
Canute attempting to hold back the waves of new words - dictionaries are
not arbiters of pronunciation they may well give an analysis of the most
common versions but they are not binding unless you make them so. If we
were playing scrabble for an award I accept the need for a defined
dictionary but I view writing as far more anarchic than that. So, I for
one don't think we should have a standard dictionary to limit us to.

Many languages followed French into the world of regulation and have
difficulty with changes, neologisms etc. The OED started as a project to
catalogue every word used in English and is huge, rambling and still
unfinished (it cannot ever be finished).

Is not Shavian an attempt to replicate the sounds of English in written
form and it should do so not to some artificial standard but represent
the sounds spoken by the writer.

Perhaps I have a limited view of Shavian but I use it in personal stuff.

I am fascinated by cultural imperialism - practised by the British
successfully and currently by the citizens of the United States who have
even managed to colonise the word "Americans" - forgetting their
northern and southern neighbours completely.

I would not want to replicate that cultural imperialism in Shavian
script either. Vive la difference!

John Warner.
--
John Warner

john.warner@...



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From: Newton, Philip
Date: 2004-04-06 15:02:46 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Adobe PDF

Toggle Shavian
j_brg wrote:
> Can everybody read and use Adobe PDFs?
>
> I understand they are supposed to be cros platform, but I
> want to make sure before I make any.

They are indeed very portable. However, if you are using Shavian (or any
non-standard font), you will probably need to include the font with the
document in order for all recipients of the file to be able to display it.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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From: j_brg
Date: 2004-04-06 15:16:48 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Number of American speakers vs. British Speakers

Toggle Shavian
Hello

I can mainly agree with the American Heritage Dictionary. It gives
pronunciations that tend to be acceptable, and it is free at
www.dictionary.com (cheque in the post please).

Though their ought be nothing against us to considering spellings
contrary to the ones found in the Am Her if we see fit.

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph,
>
> Indeed, a common spelling must be attained. I was only speculating
when I said "there should be a standard of spelling for each
Nation". I'm speculating, again, but hopefully closer to the truth
this time. We must find a dictionary pronouncation acceptable to all
English-speaking Shavian Users. I vote -- American Heritage
Dictionary -- all may vote now. Some points to consider: this
dictionary must be widely available and have a pronouncation key
compatable with Shavian.
>
> best of regards,
>
> Carl
>
> j_brg <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> Hello
>
> Do you not think this argument is spurious? How far can one go in
> totting up numbers and dividing them into "national dialects"? Will
> it ever produce anything either usable or desirable?
>
> First you ignore that in most countries there is no standard over
all
> the population, and that so-called "national dictionaries" cover
only
> a blessed and chosen few. The rest of us must make do with the
> dubious title "non-standard".
>
> If you divide people into nations and then proclaim upon each a
> national spelling for shavian then I dare say that many will tell
you
> to sit on it.
>
> Next we must understand that shavian is meant to facilitate
> communication in English and manifold spellings will not do this.
At
> the moment there is very little difference between English
spelling.
> To have any success we need to make sure that gap shrinks and not
> grow.
>
> An acceptable spelling for all English speakers must be found, with
> differences _only_ where there is a real phonemic difference in
> pronunciation. Also it must be made clear to a learner who comes
> across an unfamiliar word (that is, spelt how they would not say
it)
> that all English speakers have made a few concessions to reach a
> standard. Otherwise, like above, people will think you are trying
to
> make them speak British/American/Australian/Indian and tell you to
go
> play in the road.
>
> I hate to sound like I'm coining a bloody motto, but here is the
crux
> of my point: without unity there is no point, and without
concession
> there can be no agreement.
>
> Thanks for listening
> Joseph
>
> -- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > You are Right. I responded to Ethan on this. I agree that there
> should be a standard of spelling for each English-speaking Nation.
> >
> > best of regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Carl
> >
> > Don't forget India, Pakistan and Hong Kong. Altogether they have
> more
> > Second Lnguage English Speakers than America, and their accent is
> > closer to the British Accent.
> > English is a world language. The majority of countries in the
world
> > accept English as their preferred second language.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > ______________attached________________________
> >
>
>
>
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From: Bob Schmertz
Date: 2004-04-06 15:47:52 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Adobe PDF

Toggle Shavian
j_brg incurred the wrath of Bob on Apr 6, by saying

>Hello
>
>Can everybody read and use Adobe PDFs?
>
>I understand they are supposed to be cros platform, but I want to
>make sure before I make any.

I can read them on my iBook which is running Linux. That's about as
cross-platform as you can get ;-)

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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From: Ethan
Date: 2004-04-06 23:46:57 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Unicode Shavian Keyboard Layout

Toggle Shavian
Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

> *BUT* a big problem I'm having is this - Andagii, the only Shavian Unicode
> font I have currently, has serious problems with spacing. If you enter Shaw
> characters and then press space, it jumps forward far too far. There are
> other little niggles like that too. Phillip/Ross - can you make a decent
> font that doesn't have such niggles based upon one of your existing fonts?
>
> Hugh B

Hugh, haven't you downloaded my ESL Gothic Unicode font yet? I've
mentioned it here a number of times. Try it out and see if it works
better for you. If it makes no difference, then it's probably not the
font but the software you're typing in which is causing problems.

http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html



--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan


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From: Star Raven
Date: 2004-04-07 13:41:50 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] dictionary choice

Toggle Shavian
<snip>

If
> we
> were playing scrabble for an award I accept the need for a defined
> dictionary but I view writing as far more anarchic than that. So, I
> for
> one don't think we should have a standard dictionary to limit us to.

<snip>

hee hee hee... shavian scrabble... way more tiles!
--Star


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From: Star Raven
Date: 2004-04-07 13:42:15 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Adobe PDF

Toggle Shavian
yup... pdf files are cross platform! yaaay!

--star

--- j_brg <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
> Hello
>
> Can everybody read and use Adobe PDFs?
>
> I understand they are supposed to be cros platform, but I want to
> make sure before I make any.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
>


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From: John Warner
Date: 2004-04-07 14:02:13 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] dictionary choice

Toggle Shavian
In message <20040407123901.68714.qmail@...>, Star
Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> writes
><snip>
>
> If
>> we
>> were playing scrabble for an award I accept the need for a defined
>> dictionary but I view writing as far more anarchic than that. So, I
>> for
>> one don't think we should have a standard dictionary to limit us to.
>
><snip>
>
>hee hee hee... shavian scrabble... way more tiles!
>--Star
>
>

It would be interesting to see how the Shavian letters pan out in
frequency.

I have a copy of Finnish scrabble and it has an interesting distribution
of letters.

I will have to do an analysis with a portion of Androcles and the Lion.

John Warner
--
John Warner

john.warner@...



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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2004-04-07 19:17:21 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Unicode Shavian Keyboard Layout

Toggle Shavian
Ethan wrote:
> Hugh, haven't you downloaded my ESL Gothic Unicode font yet? I've
> mentioned it here a number of times. Try it out and see if it works
> better for you. If it makes no difference, then it's probably not the
> font but the software you're typing in which is causing problems.
>
> http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html

Thanks Ethan. I've tried it and though it seems a lot better than Andagii,
it's definitely the failure of Windows applications to deal with Unicode
plane 1 characters properly that's to blame here.

In Notepad, if you change the display font to ESL Gothic Unicode (your
font), and have the Shavian keyboard layout selected, you can type in
Shavian and it will display fine - but when you try to backspace (i.e.
delete), you have to press it TWICE for each character. It's as if Shavian
characters are being treated as TWO characters! Why it does this is beyond
me. Try it for yourself and see. I'm attaching an updated version of the
keyboard layout (the previous one accidentally had a stupid name).

Outlook Express just simply doesn't recognise them at all. Even if you've
selected Unicode UTF-8 as the encoding, and selected ESL Gothic Unicode as
the display font, AND selected the Shavian keyboard layout, it STILL just
displays a bunch of squares instead of Shavian characters, like so:

?????? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ???????????? ???????? ??????????????
????.

I've no idea if there's another mail application that can deal with Unicode
properly - if there is, please let me know what it is and where I can get
it.

I'm beginning to think, unfortunately, that with the current lack of proper
Unicode support in Windows, it's going to be too difficult to get everybody
reading the Unicode Shavian characters, let alone writing using them, at
present. It's probably much easier to just keep using the 'Shavian only'
fonts...

...That being said, I hope somebody can prove me wrong...

Hugh B



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