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Hi

I think the best way to transcribe a foreign word is to understand
that most people speaking english won't pronounce the sound properly.

Most people will 'transfer' the foreign sound to an english one that
they can pronounce. For example the composer 'Bach' is most often
pronounced 'back' by english people.

If you don't wish to think the sound should be anglicized in this
way, then it is better to write the word in the native script of the
language.

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> It is sometimes useful in English to transcribe words from foreign
language=
> s, to teach
> the language, for example.
>
> I thought of this because I've been transcribing into Shavian some
of my fi=
> ction, which
> uses my constructed languages, and I'm not sure how to spell it.
Specifica=
> lly, the
> conlang in question has vowels similar to German, which I don't
know how to=
>
> transcribe.
>
> I have the word "chöhoht" (in case it doesn't show up, the ö is an
o with t=
> wo dots),
> which could also be more phonetically as "chøhocht" or "chœhocht",
if those=
> weren't
> so harsh to look at. If you're wondering, it means "blood and
breath".
>
> Anyway, I wrote it in Shavian as /coehoht/. Does that spelling
make any se=
> nse to
> anybody else? I really hate to use a digraph like /oe/ in Shavian,
but I'm=
> not sure
> what else to use. Maybe I should just stick with the ö (o with
umlaut/dots=
> ).
>
> Of course, if I were teaching the language, I would probably just
use its n=
> ative script,
> but I'm not teaching it.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe



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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Sounds like you are talking about a new Dipthong.
> The Shaw Alphabet doesn't really have a good way of transcribing a
> new Dipthong.

Well, it's not really a diphthong. It's a single sound, like the e in pet, but slightly
rounded.


> Shaw handles Dipthongs by adding a new letter usually.
> And it has the 4 main English Dipthongs already as letters.
> You could write the vowels out, and get a close approx. of the sound.
> That is acceptable to me.
> I do that myself for 2 English vowels that don't have their own Shaw
> Letter.
> The EU of Euchre and few, I write If+Ooze
> And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If
> It's funny (peculiar) that these two Dipthongs are the reverse of
> each other.

Those might be good candidates for new letters. You could use one letter shape
and rotate it, since they're related sounds.

> And for OA of Boa Constrictor, I just add an Adu. Oat+Ado
> Much as my preferred spelling of Ian as Eat+Adu.

I use Ian, but I usually pronounce it like Eat + Ado.

> P.S. By the way. Thanks for the comments. I find it educational, as
> well.

I didn't realize what I was typing was educational, but I'm always glad to help.

Regards,
Joe



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--- In shavian@..., "j_brg" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> I think the best way to transcribe a foreign word is to understand
> that most people speaking english won't pronounce the sound properly.
>
> Most people will 'transfer' the foreign sound to an english one that
> they can pronounce. For example the composer 'Bach' is most often
> pronounced 'back' by english people.
>
> If you don't wish to think the sound should be anglicized in this
> way, then it is better to write the word in the native script of the
> language.

True, most people would probably pronounce it wrong, anyway. But I want to
spell it in such a way that preserves the actual pronunciation so people who know it
can recognize the word.

As for using the native script, it's not very practical to have to teach your readers a
new alphabet so they can read a couple words of a story. Most people wouldn't have
any reason to put that much effort into it.

So I guess Roman could work. I normally work with the language in Roman, but
that's still a transcription. What I really want is to be able to work with it the same
way in Shavian. So, I'll probably just add a diacritic for roundness.



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paul vandenbrink wrote:

> And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If

En Français, on dit "oui" comme "we" (????) en Anglais.
Je n'ai jamais entendu personne qui prononce le "oui" comme "ou-i" (????
ou ????).

In French, you say "oui" like "we" (????)in English.
I have never heard anyone pronounce the word "oui" like "oo-ee" (???? or
????).

--
·???????? - Ethan



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I finally got Font Lab working, and I've produced a font. I guess it still needs work,
and there's still no kerning, but you can give it a try. It looks weird in MS Word, but it
should print fine. The descenders hang a little low, so they can run into the next line.
As a work-around, I'm just using 1.5 line spacing, but I'll see if I can get the font
fixed. In the mean time, here it is:

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ACJ_QCabMKJxMh8ihSwSo8A6UvM1XJWiWkYfod5A-
JFR4jH6ABOuCRqh07xCUHlYY5BfMTLMNDCm8bGkq8qfuXpAwiZBrPCzpZiS/fonts/
windows/shawgar.ttf

Regards, Joe.



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Paul V wrote:

> I do that myself for 2 English vowels that don't have their own Shaw
> Letter.
> The EU of Euchre and few, I write If+Ooze
> And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If
> It's funny (peculiar) that these two Dipthongs are the reverse of
> each other.

Personally, and for most people i can think of, [V] and [wI] are good enough.

To use 'if'+'ooze' for Euchre implies to me that the word is spoken with 3 syllables (when in fact the first "syllable" ee sound is a GLIDE into the oo sound); similarly 'ooze'+'eat' would sound like the 2-syllabled "ooey" in "gooey" or "phooey" (the initial oo sound in 'oui' is the other kind of glide).

> And for OA of Boa Constrictor, I just add an Adu. Oat+Ado
> Much as my preferred spelling of Ian as Eat+Adu.

Both of these i also do.

> P.S. By the way. Thanks for the comments. I find it educational, as
> well.

I always think its got to be good for speakers of english to discuss how to write their language phonemicly - because its a skill most of us arent familiar with!

Hugh B



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On Apr 15, 2004, at 20:20, Ethan wrote:



paul vandenbrink wrote:



And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If



En Français, on dit "oui" comme "we" (????) en Anglais.
Je n'ai jamais entendu personne qui prononce le "oui" comme "ou-i" (????
ou ????).




I actually have. He is from Grenoble and spends half his time in Montreal. He was attempting to "correct" my Parisian pronunciation with an over-exaggerated pronunciation of the "ou" part of oui.



In French, you say "oui" like "we" (????)in English.
I have never heard anyone pronounce the word "oui" like "oo-ee" (???? or
????).

--
·???????? - Ethan



--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Joe incurred the wrath of Bob on Apr 16, by saying

>I finally got Font Lab working, and I've produced a font. I guess it
>still needs work, and there's still no kerning, but you can give it a
>try. It looks weird in MS Word, but it should print fine. The
>descenders hang a little low, so they can run into the next line. As a
>work-around, I'm just using 1.5 line spacing, but I'll see if I can get
>the font fixed. In the mean time, here it is:
>

Are there any fixed-width fonts out there? I've had barely enough time
to even keep up with this list lately, let alone play with Shavian, but
if I did, that's something I might find useful. Just a thought.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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On 15 Apr 2004 at 21:24, Joe wrote:

> True, most people would probably pronounce it wrong, anyway. But
> I want to spell it in such a way that preserves the actual
> pronunciation so people who know it can recognize the word.

Well, Shavian is designed for *English*. If you want it to be able to
represent any phoneme at all, you're probably better off using IPA.

Otherwise you'll need letters not only for /ø/ (German ö, French eu)
and /y/ (German ü, French u), but also /x/ (German ach-Laut, Russian
kh) and (SAMPA) /G/ (Greek gamma), and Hungarian <gy>, and Croatian
<c'>, and ...

I'd say, if you're using Shavian, spell it as closely as is possible.
It'll be a transcription, by necessity, not a transliteration: you
won't be able to capture the original pronunciation unambiguously. I
also wouldn't use new digraphs, comparable to the English <zh> for the
"measure" sound in e.g. Russian words.

If you want to be more precise, use a different alphabet: the Roman
alphabet with a "standard" transcription, the native alphabet, or IPA.
(Maybe the last is best, then people only have to learn Shavian + IPA,
not Shavian + Roman with a variety of transcription schemes + Cyrillic
+ Georgian + Armenian + Chinese characters + ....)

> As for using the native script, it's not very practical to have
> to teach your readers a new alphabet so they can read a couple words
> of a story. Most people wouldn't have any reason to put that much
> effort into it.

I'd suggest butchering the pronunciation, then. This is (IMO) really
not what Shavian was intended for.

> So I guess Roman could work. I normally work with the language
> in Roman, but that's still a transcription. What I really want is to
> be able to work with it the same way in Shavian. So, I'll probably
> just add a diacritic for roundness.

It'll be a specialist spelling, then, one not immediately obvious to
someone who only knows the basic Shavian alphabet. So if they have to
learn something new anyway, that could work. (Just like people who know
the Roman alphabet and learn Chinese via Pinyin have to learn new
values for letters such as <q> and <x>, and become used to writing <ü>
as distinct from <u>.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>



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Scott Harrison wrote:
> En Français, on dit "oui" comme "we" (????) en Anglais.
> Je n'ai jamais entendu personne qui prononce le "oui" comme "ou-i"
> (???? ou ????).
>
>
> I actually have. He is from Grenoble and spends half his time in
> Montreal. He was attempting to "correct" my Parisian pronunciation with
> an over-exaggerated pronunciation of the "ou" part of oui.

Now don't get me going about the horrible things they do to "La Langue
Française" in Montréal! Sure, the French make fun of the Québequois,
and vice-versa, but there is some *really bad* French spoken in Montréal
and surrounding areas, for which there is no excuse!

Yes, I lived in Québec for a while...

--
·???????? - Ethan


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