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Hal,

In my own speech (Southern dialect, Alabama), the sounds that you describe as
"aw" and "o[r]" seem the same.

Bill

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On 18 Sep 00, at 21:54, Hal Fulton wrote:

> The three sounds are:
>
> 1) ah -- Mouth and throat are totally open, tongue is flat. Sound a
> doctor wants you to make so he can examine your throat. In my dialect:
> father, hot, bah-humbug, ha-ha.
>
> 2) aw -- Throat still open, lips rounded a little, tongue raised a
> little. In my dialect: Paw, raw, awwww, dawn, pawn, haughty, bought,
> hee-haw.
>
> 3) o[r] -- Though I am rhotic, I don't consider the terminating "r"
> relevant here. I have heard this sound with and without the r.
> Throat a little more tight, lips even more closed in an O, tongue
> somewhat arched. In my dialect: or, bore, dorm, torn, porn, etc.
[snip]
> What say all of you? Does your dialect have three sounds here or
> only two?

In RP (non-rhotic), I'd say that the words in (2) and (3) rhyme, being
pronounced at position (3). However, there's also "short o" as in "hot,
cot, body", which -- from your description -- I'd place roughly at
position (2). (1) is distinct from either of these sounds. So I'd say
it has only two sounds here, but it has an additional sound at the
third position.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>




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On 18 Sep 00, at 21:54, Hal Fulton wrote:

> The three sounds are:
>
> 1) ah -- Mouth and throat are totally open, tongue is flat. Sound a
> doctor wants you to make so he can examine your throat. In my dialect:
> father, hot, bah-humbug, ha-ha.
>
> 2) aw -- Throat still open, lips rounded a little, tongue raised a
> little. In my dialect: Paw, raw, awwww, dawn, pawn, haughty, bought,
> hee-haw.
>
> 3) o[r] -- Though I am rhotic, I don't consider the terminating "r"
> relevant here. I have heard this sound with and without the r.
> Throat a little more tight, lips even more closed in an O, tongue
> somewhat arched. In my dialect: or, bore, dorm, torn, porn, etc.
[snip]
> What say all of you? Does your dialect have three sounds here or
> only two?

In RP (non-rhotic), I'd say that the words in (2) and (3) rhyme, being
pronounced at position (3). However, there's also "short o" as in "hot,
cot, body", which -- from your description -- I'd place roughly at
position (2). (1) is distinct from either of these sounds. So I'd say
it has only two sounds here, but it has an additional sound at the
third position.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>

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Please remove my E-Mail from you Mass mailings. The party that was
interested in Shaw is not at this Address.
----------
>From: YDerwydd@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000, 8:36 PM
>

>
>Hal,
>
>In my own speech (Southern dialect, Alabama), the sounds that you describe as
>"aw" and "o[r]" seem the same.
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>

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Having some technical difficulties. This is merely a test.

Paige

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TO: Shavian eGroup

This is more of a test of the graphic capabilities of mail servers and mail programs than a case of providing the group with interesting content.

For this test, I have used a comparision of pictographic monofon - a simplified historical-roman script - with Shavian.
Shavian was purposely non-Roman. Monofon or PMF uses many of the same forms but tries to preserve the historical shapes.
Phonograms for PBTD are about the same. th/dh are the same but the assignments are reversed.


The PMF symbol for [ng] is the same a rotated Shavian [oi]. PMF tends to be more analytic than Shavian.
/ae/ [ash] for instance is a combination of the shapes for ah + eh. Sound assignments have been slightly juggled to achieve these connections.




PMF Pictographic Monoline Fonetic & Shavian Notations

<http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pmf-shavian.jpg>


Winglish - World English
short long i-comb r-comb
a aa ai ar air
e 'r ei er
i ii oi ir
o oo ou or
u uu iu ur
'a 'e au aur


The following is a compact chart of a proposed ASCII notation for English. It looks a little odd as do all phonemic solutions, but it is consistent.

Winglish speling iz not ool that dif'rent from dh'e traadish'anl speling. It kan bi red withaut 'a kii. Tu det'rmin j'ast hau tu spel 'a w'erd, luk it 'ap in dh'e pronunsieiS'n gaid ov 'a diksh'neri. Ther aar sev'r'al gud on lain dikS'neriz s'ach as Cambrij.

A week ago someone indicated that they though that IPA was ugly.

Winglish - World English
short long i-comb r-comb
a aa ai ar air
e 'r ei er
i ii oi ir
o oo ou or
u uu iu ur
'a 'e au aur
This is about as compact as one can get and
show the 12 English vowel phonemes and
their most significant combinations.
short=checked, long=free
oo=awe

ou =owe
iu=yu/ju
'r = 3:r could also be 'er
'n = syllabic n - can also be written 'en or 'an. 'a 'e = schwa as in ago, sofa, suffer, her /h3:/
the sound in [up] is ref. with either schwa or u.
A distinct /^/ phonogram is not available.


Regards, Steve

<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/vangogh/555/Spell/images/script2.gif>

<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/vangogh/555/Spell/stevecap4k.jpg>



________________________________

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As they are in my Chicago dialect. Dan Szczurek

----------
>From: YDerwydd@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: MonThurSepJun 1829, 2000200029,21:36
>

>
> Hal,
>
> In my own speech (Southern dialect, Alabama), the sounds that you describe as
> "aw" and "o[r]" seem the same.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>

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Dear Hal,
If you have access to a large reference library (university or like)
there is an American English dialect Atlas, which deals with this question
in detail. It shows the location of these variations geographically. Also, I
believe there is a society for American (or English) dialectology, which
deals with the changes that have taken place since the Atlas was published.
I think these sources would be of interest to you.
I think the "Yee-haw!" is a characterization, or, if it is really used,
it is used to show that the people using it are members of a sub-culture,
the "cowboy culture." I have no information on "yee-haw" in particular, but
have written articles on this sub-culture years ago. If I can find copies,
would you like to see them? Certain kinds of pronunciation, as well as
vocabulary items, are used to show a person's perceived or real membership
in a culture/sub-culture. As an anthropological linguist, this is one of the
big things I study. Words and pronunciations of this kind are called "group
markers" or "in-group markers." The pronunciation of "rather" with the "ah"
sound is/was considered a marker of high social class. I think this marker
is becoming rarer in American speech, as are all Anglicisms.
Dr. Dan Szczurek

----------
>From: "Hal Fulton" <hal9000@...>
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Questions concerning vowels, etc.
>Date: MonThurSepJun 1829, 2000200029,14:54
>

>
> This may be a tad off-topic. I am curious as to whose dialects
> include a certain set of sounds.
>
> Of course, expressing these is problematic, but I'll try to describe
> them instead of just giving sample words.
>
> The reason I ask is, I think I remember reading that it was rare for
> dialects to have all three sounds. Of course, I may have misunderstood
> something, since I read it all instead of hearing it. But it sounded
> fishy to me...
>
> FWIW, my dialect is fairly neutral midwestern US, with traces of
> Southern (like a midly Southernized Dan Rather).
>
> The three sounds are:
>
> 1) ah -- Mouth and throat are totally open, tongue is flat. Sound a
> doctor wants you to make so he can examine your throat. In my dialect:
> father, hot, bah-humbug, ha-ha.
>
> 2) aw -- Throat still open, lips rounded a little, tongue raised a
> little. In my dialect: Paw, raw, awwww, dawn, pawn, haughty, bought,
> hee-haw.
>
> 3) o[r] -- Though I am rhotic, I don't consider the terminating "r"
> relevant here. I have heard this sound with and without the r.
> Throat a little more tight, lips even more closed in an O, tongue
> somewhat arched. In my dialect: or, bore, dorm, torn, porn, etc.
>
> Comments:
>
> 1. I sometimes hear (fellow) Americans speaking a dialect in which
> "Don" and "dawn" are homonyms. Not mine!
>
> 2. Conversely, I own a piece of software, a card-playing program,
> in which one of the characters is a cowboy-like person occasionally
> emitting the cowboy's yell "Yee-ha!" through the sound card -- but
> pronouncing it "Yee-haw!" as I have never heard it before.
>
> 3. I have heard people say "rahther" -- in most circles it is
> considered affected. I have never heard anyone say "rawther." In
> my dialect, it is usually pronounced as Dan Rather pronounces his
> last name.
>
> What say all of you? Does your dialect have three sounds here or
> only two?
>
> Hal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Dear Phillip,
I would like to have a copy of the booklet on using Shavian to write
Esperanto, if you still have any copies. I'm sorry I'm so late in responding
to this. I was on vacation and lecturing in the Chicago area for the past 6
weeks. Thanks!
Dr. Daniel Szczurek
7425 Ruby Dive, SW, #D-12
Lakewood, WA 98498-5062
USA

----------
>From: "Phillip Driscoll" <phild@...>
>To: <shavian@...>
>Subject: Re: [shavian] lurker: et tu, brute?
>Date: MonThurSepJun 1129, 2000200029,20:41
>

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
> To: 'shavian@...' <shavian@...>
> Date: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [shavian] lurker: et tu, brute?
>
>>There's even an adaptation of the Shaw alphabet to Esperanto! Someone
> (don't
>>remember who, unfortunately) sent me a little booklet with a story in
>>Esperanto that progressively introduces more and more Shaw alphabet
> letters.
>>There's also a little addendum which introduces some ligatures for such
>>common combinations as -oj -aj, -is -as -os -us, etc.
>
>
> The adaptation of Shaw to Esperanto was done by Gan Starling in
> Kalamazoo, Michigan. (Formerly known as John Wesley Starling, he
> had the spelling legally changed to Gan Uesli Starling to match Esperanto
> orthography!)
>
> We were at an Esperanto meeting several years ago, when the subject
> of other writing systems came up. I mentioned Shaw, which no one else
> there had ever heard of. Later Gan asked for more info on Shaw, so I
> send him photocopies out of Androcles.
>
> He took it upon himself to develop an entire system for Esperanto and
> publish a booklet explaining how it works.
>
> I have a few copies of the booklet, and I'll gladly send one to anyone
> who is interested (it's all in Esperanto). Note that the sound values of
> several letters are completely different than the English version of Shaw
> (for good reasons).
>
> --Phillip Driscoll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Please give a more precise definition of the phrase "most widely spoken." I
would be interested to know more precisely what you mean by this. As a
linguist, I know that this is not a technical term. So, I need your help to
understand exactly what you mean by this. Thank you.
Dr. Daniel Szczurek, PhD
Adjunct Professor of Linguistics and Anthropology

----------
>From: YDerwydd@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: [shavian] Re: most widely spoken language
>Date: MonThurSepJun 1129, 2000200029,08:20
>

>
>
> Someone wrote something to the effect of:
>
> << Chinese is the most widely spoken language, and I don't think the Chinese
> will be so easy to boss around. >>
>
> Chinese has the largest number of speakers, but English is the most widely
> spoken. There is a major difference. Anyone who learns Chinese does so
> specifically to deal with the Chinese because Chinese is largely confined
> (with few exceptions) to China itself. A great number of people learn English
> without any intent to deal with the English. English is the de facto
> international language in numerous fields: business, avionics, science, etc.
> People all over the globe are earger to learn English for very pragmatic
> reasons.
>
> I have traveled throughout Asia, Africa, South America and Europe and never
> once been without a native person present who could speak English. As for the
> Chinese, they are also eager to learn English. I was recently in Beijing with
> my wife (who is Chinese) and once people there learned she is fluent in
> English, they drove her crazy -- wanting to learn more English from her.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>