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hE, in /britan wI hAv nO TANksgiviN :) wot duz it mIn eniwE? kUd sumwun iksplEn?

F Am rWli hApi wI R tYkiN in His skript nQ. duz mF britiS Aksent rWli SO? F sapOz F wUdant nOtis mFself HO. O n /gAri, F TiNk V R rFt abQt H 'stAndDd' TiN - it kAn Onli rWli imxJ TrM prAktikal mInz lFk His. trFiN t kriEt wun nevD wxks. if wun duzant imxJ, Hen nuTiN hAz bIn lost.

eniwE, F'm lUkiN fPwDd t rIdiN sum mP /SEvian ritan bF uHDz in His grMp.

/hV

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hApI

TANksgivIN,

evribodI!

---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

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F agrI wiT jM bOT, when F fDst Jqnd H mEliN list F TYt HAt it wad bI VziN mostlI /SEvWn. F fQnd HAt most v H tYkiN wuz abQt it nyt in it. lEtlI pIpal hAv bin diskusiN som sPt v stAndDd speliN. H hOl rIzin HAt F fQnd, n lovd /SEvWn wuz bIkYz v H tOtul fOnetiknes v speliN. H fOnetik speliN iz wF F lFk /SEvWn, His iz t fOld. wun, F kAnt kAnt spel in/ingliS (lxniN disEbild) n t, it kApcxz Aksents in H rFtiN. sO F sE, dont swet H smyl stuf. crFiN t stAndDdFz /SEvWn rFtiN iz lFk crFiN t stAndDdFz /ingliS spIkiN.

kIp on rFtiN /SEvWn,
-mitc

Mitch Morris

ICQ#:11430502

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:17 PM
Subject: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hF,

F hAv disFdid t rFt in /SEvian bikoz H Onli stuf HAt hAz bIn sxkjUlEtiN rIsantli hAz bIn stuf HAt kwescanz H veri nEcD v /SEvian. wFl F'm not agenst it, F TiNk wI SUd lE it Yl t wun sFd, krAk Opan a bC, n tYk a bit in /SEvian. F mIn, hC'z His wundDfUl Alfabet HAt iz hel betD HAn H wun it riplEsiz, n Yl wI kAn TiNk t dM iz tYk abQt it... :)

sO hC F Am, tYkiN in it. HX iz nO rIzan fP it, but wot H hel. F inJq rFtiN in it. HAt's wun v H TiNz F inJq abQt H Alfabet mOst. jet F hAvant hAd H cyns in fR tM loN, n F TiNk H /SEvian mEliN list SUd bI H prFm plEs t dM it.

kum on Hen evriwun, let's lE dFalekts, Vs v kAriktDz, stuf lFk HAt, Yl t wun sFd fP a mOmant n mEk sum prAktikal Vs v His wundDfUl Alfabet.

/hV


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TANksgivIN iz probabalI de fAktO T mOst sEkred holidE in /AmXika. it rImEnz relativlI unkomxSalFzd. it iz a dE tM gib TaNks tM /god fP yl Qr blesINz. VZUalI selabrEtad wiT a big fAmilI dinD.
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hE, in /britan wI hAv nO TANksgiviN :) wot duz it mIn eniwE? kUd sumwun iksplEn?

F Am rWli hApi wI R tYkiN in His skript nQ. duz mF britiS Aksent rWli SO? F sapOz F wUdant nOtis mFself HO. O n /gAri, F TiNk V R rFt abQt H 'stAndDd' TiN - it kAn Onli rWli imxJ TrM prAktikal mInz lFk His. trFiN t kriEt wun nevD wxks. if wun duzant imxJ, Hen nuTiN hAz bIn lost.

eniwE, F'm lUkiN fPwDd t rIdiN sum mP /SEvian ritan bF uHDz in His grMp.

/hV

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hApI

TANksgivIN,

evribodI!

---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /apps/windows/Rosetta.zip
Uploaded by : acal@...
Description : Version 2.0.4 of Rosetta. Has some bug fixes.

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Regards,

acal@...





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F dOn't nO if anIwun els has pUt it His wE, but it sImz tO mI HAt HX iz a simpl cqs tO bI mEd hC: /SEvWn kAn IHx bI fOnetik, P it kAn bI VnifPm. but it iz simplI not posibl fP it tO bI bOT! wun must bI sAkrifFst fP H oHx. H OnlI oHx Yltxnitiv iZ fP evrIbudI tO spIk H sEm, n HAt simplI wil nevx hApin.

E pxsunilI wUd vOt fP fOnetik n alQ divxsitI in speliN tO kApcx h egzistiN divxsitI in spIc. sO fR F hAvn't hAd anI trubl rIdiN H vXIuslI speld pOsts in His Tred.

--gxI

----- Original Message -----
From: Abbydohl <mailto:Abbydohl@PhantomMX.com>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

F agrI wiT jM bOT, when F fDst Jqnd H mEliN list F TYt HAt it wad bI VziN mostlI /SEvWn. F fQnd HAt most v H tYkiN wuz abQt it nyt in it. lEtlI pIpal hAv bin diskusiN som sPt v stAndDd speliN. H hOl rIzin HAt F fQnd, n lovd /SEvWn wuz bIkYz v H tOtul fOnetiknes v speliN. H fOnetik speliN iz wF F lFk /SEvWn, His iz t fOld. wun, F kAnt kAnt spel in/ingliS (lxniN disEbild) n t, it kApcxz Aksents in H rFtiN. sO F sE, dont swet H smyl stuf. crFiN t stAndDdFz /SEvWn rFtiN iz lFk crFiN t stAndDdFz /ingliS spIkiN.

kIp on rFtiN /SEvWn,
-mitc

Mitch Morris

ICQ#:11430502

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:17 PM
Subject: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hF,

F hAv disFdid t rFt in /SEvian bikoz H Onli stuf HAt hAz bIn sxkjUlEtiN rIsantli hAz bIn stuf HAt kwescanz H veri nEcD v /SEvian. wFl F'm not agenst it, F TiNk wI SUd lE it Yl t wun sFd, krAk Opan a bC, n tYk a bit in /SEvian. F mIn, hC'z His wundDfUl Alfabet HAt iz hel betD HAn H wun it riplEsiz, n Yl wI kAn TiNk t dM iz tYk abQt it... :)

sO hC F Am, tYkiN in it. HX iz nO rIzan fP it, but wot H hel. F inJq rFtiN in it. HAt's wun v H TiNz F inJq abQt H Alfabet mOst. jet F hAvant hAd H cyns in fR tM loN, n F TiNk H /SEvian mEliN list SUd bI H prFm plEs t dM it.

kum on Hen evriwun, let's lE dFalekts, Vs v kAriktDz, stuf lFk HAt, Yl t wun sFd fP a mOmant n mEk sum prAktikal Vs v His wundDfUl Alfabet.

/hV




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RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> The problem that the ON and AWE sounds of British Received
> Pronunciation create for North American Shaw Alphabet writers
> has been discussed at length before.

You forgot AH :-)

> For me, at least, the problem is that British Received Pronunciation
> simply has one more vowel phoneme than I do, and I can only
> spell words with these vowels by looking them up in a British
> Received Pronunciation dictionary. There is no way I can tell by
> looking at the word that "cat" is /kaet/ and "bath" is bawth.

Actually, it's bahth ;-). bawth doesn't exist, though e.g. bawl does
(spelled either bawl or ball in Roman). And AW isn't then same as ON, e.g.
hot not hawt for "hot", but bawl not bol (which would be spelled "boll" in
Roman). I hear a difference in vowel length as well as quantity; I don't
know whether you do.

> My own practice is to omit the ON letter entirely, and write
> what for the BRP speaker is two different sounds, with the letter
> AWE.

I've noticed this problem when using the CMU pronouncing dictionary; it uses
the equivalent of AWE everywhere I would use ON.

Cheers,
Philip

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Uh-oh, I've created some confusion here.

I don't use the ON symbol - I use AH (unfortunately I said AWE) for sounds
spelled in Androcles with both ON and AH. I apologize for any confusion I
created.

Philip Newton and I have differences in vowel length - the vowel of "cot" is
shorter than the vowel of "caught" - but the difference is not phonemic, but
rather is similar to the difference in vowel length in "seat" and "seed".
(Mastery of this subphonemic difference in vowel length is very difficult for
people learning English as a second language, and is quite important.)

As I said before, the problem for North American speakers is that we have one
less vowel phoneme than BRP speakers do, and the traditional orthography of
English is not an adequate guide to adding a symbol for a sound we don't
distinguish.

Traditional orthography is a guide to writing the Shaw Alphabet r-vowels, and
to writing the /w/ /hw/ distinction for those of us who have it, but it is
not much help with ON, AH, and AWE.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN

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As I mentioned in another thread in Shavian, it seems clear that Shavian can
either be phonetic or it can be uniform, but it simply cannot be both. If
we wish for it to remain phonetic then spellings will remain
non-standardized for as long as people continue to speak differently. If we
standardize spellings then Shavian ceases to be phonetic. It's really that
simple.

I personally vote for retaining its phonetic basis, however I think that it
should be clarified somehow exactly what the sounds of the various letters
are to be. "On" is not pronounced the same by British speakers and American
speakers, and so we two are using two distinclty different versions of the
"on" letter. American speakers use it to stand for one sound and British
speakers use it to stand for a different sound. At the very least this half
of the problem should be fixed, and it should be agreed upon as to exactly
which sound is represented by "on", and if it is more appropriate that
American speakers use a different model word on their reading guides (such
as "AWning" instead of "On", for example), then at least we have solved half
of the problem. As it is we haven't yet really agreed on what each letter
sounds like, and so Shavian, as it stands, is NEITHER phonetic, nor uniform.
And unless we do agree on the sounds of each letter it will remain just
another arbitrary set of symbols that are only loosely related to actual
pronunciation.

--gary


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----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Shannon <mailto:reboot@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

F dOn't nO if anIwun els has pUt it His wE, but it sImz tO mI HAt HX iz a simpl cqs tO bI mEd hC: /SEvWn kAn IHx bI fOnetik, P it kAn bI VnifPm. but it iz simplI not posibl fP it tO bI bOT! wun must bI sAkrifFst fP H oHx. H OnlI oHx Yltxnitiv iZ fP evrIbudI tO spIk H sEm, n HAt simplI wil nevx hApin.

HX must bI a kompramFz HAt kAn bI rIct. F wUd tend t opt tUwPd a stAndDd bIiN in igzistans (but HAt wUd not mIn HAt evriwun cEnJ HX pxsanal speliN stFlz), but bikoz v H vQal difDansiz bitwIn /britiS- n /amerikan-tFp Aksents, rIJanal stAndDdz mFt bI betD. but it hAz t hApan ivencUali, if Onli fP AplikESanz suc Az kampVtDz P lIgal dokjUmants.

but His woz Yl bifP sumwun (F'm afrEd F kAnot rimembD ofhAnd hM it woz) mEd H briliant obsDvESan HAt stAndDdz dOnt wxk if HE R kriEtid - if wun duz kum intM bIiN, it wil bI TrM nAcDal prOsesiz Onli. rFt nQ, let's Yl rFt hQ wI dM. yftD Yl, wI R, At H mOmant, not despDatli in nId v a stAndDd eniwE.

E pxsunilI wUd vOt fP fOnetik n alQ divxsitI in speliN tO kApcx h egzistiN divxsitI in spIc. sO fR F hAvn't hAd anI trubl rIdiN H vXIuslI speld pOsts in His Tred.

nO, F must sE, nFHD hAv F. but F hAvant sIn H /SEvian v meni pIpal jet - sO fR H Aksents F hAv sIn trAnskrFbd hAv not bIn tM 'abskjUD' eniwE. but jes, nQ wI hAv Yl stRtid displEiN QD /SEvian rFtiN stFlz, wI wil posibli fFnd Qt Just hQ wel /SEvian wxks Az an intDnASanal kamVnikESan tMl.


--gxI


/hV

----- Original Message -----
From: Abbydohl <mailto:Abbydohl@PhantomMX.com>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

F agrI wiT jM bOT, when F fDst Jqnd H mEliN list F TYt HAt it wad bI VziN mostlI /SEvWn. F fQnd HAt most v H tYkiN wuz abQt it nyt in it. lEtlI pIpal hAv bin diskusiN som sPt v stAndDd speliN. H hOl rIzin HAt F fQnd, n lovd /SEvWn wuz bIkYz v H tOtul fOnetiknes v speliN. H fOnetik speliN iz wF F lFk /SEvWn, His iz t fOld. wun, F kAnt kAnt spel in/ingliS (lxniN disEbild) n t, it kApcxz Aksents in H rFtiN. sO F sE, dont swet H smyl stuf. crFiN t stAndDdFz /SEvWn rFtiN iz lFk crFiN t stAndDdFz /ingliS spIkiN.

kIp on rFtiN /SEvWn,
-mitc

Mitch Morris

ICQ#:11430502

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:17 PM
Subject: [shavian] And now for something completely different...

hF,

F hAv disFdid t rFt in /SEvian bikoz H Onli stuf HAt hAz bIn sxkjUlEtiN rIsantli hAz bIn stuf HAt kwescanz H veri nEcD v /SEvian. wFl F'm not agenst it, F TiNk wI SUd lE it Yl t wun sFd, krAk Opan a bC, n tYk a bit in /SEvian. F mIn, hC'z His wundDfUl Alfabet HAt iz hel betD HAn H wun it riplEsiz, n Yl wI kAn TiNk t dM iz tYk abQt it... :)

sO hC F Am, tYkiN in it. HX iz nO rIzan fP it, but wot H hel. F inJq rFtiN in it. HAt's wun v H TiNz F inJq abQt H Alfabet mOst. jet F hAvant hAd H cyns in fR tM loN, n F TiNk H /SEvian mEliN list SUd bI H prFm plEs t dM it.

kum on Hen evriwun, let's lE dFalekts, Vs v kAriktDz, stuf lFk HAt, Yl t wun sFd fP a mOmant n mEk sum prAktikal Vs v His wundDfUl Alfabet.

/hV





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The first of what I hope will be many computer-translated short stories is now available to read on the web or download and enjoy off line.

Edgar Allen Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" can be found at http://www.teleport.com/~fiziwig/shaw.html

--gary


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