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I know this has been talked about before, but it's been troubling me. Has anyone yet worked out why Dictionaries use the 'if' phoneme at the end of words instead of 'eat'? It is nothing to do with stress, as that is indicated by an apostrophe, so why do they do it?

Hugh

F nO His hAz bIn tYkt abQt bifP. but it's bIn trubliN mI. hAz enIwun jet wxkt Qt wF dikSanerIz Vz H 'i' fOnIm At H end v wxdz insted v 'I'? it iz nuTiN t dM wiH stres, Az HAt iz indikEtid bF an apostrafI, sO wF dM HE dM it?

/hV

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I can't answer your question, but I saw something even stranger a few years ago.

I've worked in the computer industry for over twenty years. At the office, I noticed
that one of the office clerks had a book entitled "Computer Dictionary for Dummies."

I looked through it just out of curiousity about how accurate it was. Each word
included a pronunciation guide. Imagine my surprise to see all of the "silent e's"
on the ends of words showing as pronounced! For example, the word "file" was
given this pronunciation: "fie-leh." Database was "Da-tah Bay-seh."

It was printed in USA and the author had an English name, so it's a mystery to
me.

--Phillip Driscoll

-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@... <mailto:mixsynth@...> >
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> <shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> >
Date: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:20 PM
Subject: [shavian] Why do dictionaries use 'if', not 'eat'?


I know this has been talked about before, but it's been troubling me. Has anyone yet worked out why Dictionaries use the 'if' phoneme at the end of words instead of 'eat'? It is nothing to do with stress, as that is indicated by an apostrophe, so why do they do it?

Hugh

F nO His hAz bIn tYkt abQt bifP. but it's bIn trubliN mI. hAz enIwun jet wxkt Qt wF dikSanerIz Vz H 'i' fOnIm At H end v wxdz insted v 'I'? it iz nuTiN t dM wiH stres, Az HAt iz indikEtid bF an apostrafI, sO wF dM HE dM it?

/hV

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I have made some changes to my website, in case anyone is interested. There
is nothing stunningly new or original (same old pictures), as I have done it
principally to pass an HTML course here in Indonesia. However, any comments
or ideas would be most gratefully received.

The site is described as Xeno's, for that is my pseudonym here. I have
raided Lionel Ghoti's site a little, but as plagiarism is an extreme form of
flattery, I'm sure he won't sue. I might restore my Shavian texts later.

The URL is: http://www.geocities.com/simonbarne/

If you would like me to add a link to your site, please email me with the
URL.

Simon Barne / Xeno


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How does everyone here pronounce the word 'vehemently'?

Hugh

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FWIW: I guess I just use the barest "hint" of an "h" between the two e's, but I try not to let it disappear completely. I put the em-FAS-is on the first syl-AH-ble. :) --gary

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 7:59 AM
Subject: [shavian] Quick question...

How does everyone here pronounce the word 'vehemently'?

Hugh


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I thought I might make a suggestion that could clear up confusion when it comes to knowing when to spell 'on' instead of 'ah', and/or vice versa: go to www.dictionary.com <http://www.dictionary.com> . There you can search for words where you are not sure, and it will tell you which phoneme should ideally be used. And it's not at all RP-orientated either - its pronunciation guide is taken from the American Heritage Dictionary.

I believe its pronunciation guide's list of phonemes is remarkably like that of Shavian. I believe this could be a good set of 'standard' spellings for anyone to use, even on this side of the pond. The pronunciation guide seems to represent my speech even more closely than that of the Oxford dictionary!

Also, interestingly, it uses 'eat' instead of 'if' (I'm assuming you'll know what I mean by this), so that has finally pursuaded me to start doing the same. It does more closely match my own pronunciation anyway, I have to admit.

Check it out and see what you think.

Hugh

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Hugh,

It does have to do with stress which is often represented two ways in
IPA. Words such as [sofa] and [very] are often transcribed 'sou-f@
and 'ver-I. The @ refers to an unstressed mid lax vowel yet there is
still a redundant primary stress marker added.

Not every one spells very as [verI]. It depends on the notation used.
If the colon extender is used, there is a reluctance to use it on
unstressed syllables as in [veri:]. However if the dotted i is used
for the vowel in [ski], then it is spelled [veri].

Truespel, an alternate phonemic notation, spells this word [veree].
http://www.unifon.org/truespel-short.html

Did you have another word in mind when you asked the question?

Regards,

Steve

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...> wrote:
> I know this has been talked about before, but it's been troubling
me. Has anyone yet worked out why Dictionaries use the 'if' phoneme at
the end of words instead of 'eat'? It is nothing to do with stress, as
that is indicated by an apostrophe, so why do they do it?

> Hugh



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AAAAAAgh! Hugh, we've switched sides completely! I was the one who (regretfully) started the whole If/Eat mess, but I'm favoring If now. Not because of phonemics, but because of Read's detailed explanations in the Quickscript Manual as to why he felt that standardization was beneficial, especially in the most common word endings and prefixes. Several times he mentions that the suggested standard spellings do not imply a specific pronunciation--so I can live with that. In Post #765, "Some Issues," I recapitulated the last published remarks by the alphabets' creator as to suggested spellings. Read felt that the unstressed syllables in common word endings and beginnings were the most problematical for deciding which letters to use. Get those out of the way, and English speakers all over the world write Shaw with only an average of only two letters difference out of every hundred. It made me feel that an agreement on the vague distinctions between these vowels isn't a bad price to pay!

In Second Shaw (use Jerome font)

yyyyyyyg! /hV, wI'v swict sFdz kmplItli! F waz H wan hM [rigretfali] stRtd H hOl if&It mess, bat F'm fEvDN "if" nQ. not bikYz v fOnImiks, bat bikYz v /rId's dItEld eksplanESnz in H /kwikskript /mAnVal Az t wF hI felt HAt stAndDizESn waz benifiSl, espeSali in H mOst coman wDd endNz n prIfiksz. sevaral tFmz hI menSnz HAt H saJestd stAndDd spelNz dM not implF a spesifik pranansIESn--sO F kAn liv wiT HAt. in /pOst #765, "sam iSMz," F rIcapicUlEtd H lAst publiSt rimRks bF H Alfabets' krIEtD Az tM saJestd spelNz. /rId felt HAt H anstrest silablz in coman wDd endNz n biginNz wD H mOst problamAtikl fP disFdN wic letDz t Vz. get Hoz Qt v H wE, n /INliS spIkDz Yl OvD H wDld rIt /SY wiT an AvDiJ V Onli tM letDz difDans Qt v evDi handrad. it mEd mI fIl HAt an agrImnt on H vEg distInkSnz bitwIn HIz vQwlz izn'ta bAd prFs t pE!

In First Shaw

yyyyyyyg! /hV, wI'v swict sFdz kmplItli! F waz H wan hM (rigretfali) stRtd H hOl if&It mess, bat F'm fEvDN "if" nQ. not bikYz v fOnImiks, bat bikYz v /rId's dItEld eksplanESnz in H kwikskript mAnVal Az t wF hI felt HAt stAndDizESn waz benifiSl, espeSali in H mOst coman wDd endNz n prIfiksz. sevaral tFmz hI menSnz HAt H saJestd stAndDd spelNz dM not implF a spesifik pranansIESn--sO F kAn liv wiT HAt. in /pOst #765, "sam iSMz," F rIcapicUlEtd H lAst publiSt rimRks bF H Alfabets' krIEtD Az tM saJestd spelNz. /rId felt HAt H anstrest silablz in coman wDd endNz n biginNz wD H mOst problamAtikl fP disFdN wic letDz t Vz. get Hoz Qt v H wE, n /INliS spIkDz Yl OvD H wDld rIt /SY wiT an AvDiJ V Onli tM letDz difDans Qt v evDi handrad. it mEd mI fIl HAt an agrImnt on H vEg distInkSnz bitwIn HIz vQwlz izn'ta bAd prFs t pE!
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

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Either "vee-uh-ment-lee" or " vee-yuh-ment-lee."
Dan Szczurek

----------
From: "Gary Shannon" <reboot@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Subject: Re: [shavian] Quick question...
Date: Dec Sat, 2000, 12:59




FWIW: I guess I just use the barest "hint" of an "h" between the two e's, but I try not to let it disappear completely. I put the em-FAS-is on the first syl-AH-ble. :) --gary


----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 7:59 AM
Subject: [shavian] Quick question...

How does everyone here pronounce the word 'vehemently'?

Hugh


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----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 10:14 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Suggestions for spelling... (again)

AAAAAAgh! Hugh, we've switched sides completely! I was the one who (regretfully) started the whole If/Eat mess, but I'm favoring If now. Not because of phonemics, but because of Read's detailed explanations in the Quickscript Manual as to why he felt that standardization was beneficial, especially in the most common word endings and prefixes. Several times he mentions that the suggested standard spellings do not imply a specific pronunciation--so I can live with that. In Post #765, "Some Issues," I recapitulated the last published remarks by the alphabets' creator as to suggested spellings. Read felt that the unstressed syllables in common word endings and beginnings were the most problematical for deciding which letters to use. Get those out of the way, and English speakers all over the world write Shaw with only an average of only two letters difference out of every hundred. It made me feel that an agreement on the vague distinctions between these vowels isn't a bad price to pay!
[snip the transliterations]

Hehe, it does seem like that doesn't it! :) But rest assured I didn't change my stance to get on your nerves. I was really thinking about what represented the speech of the majority of English-speakers, including myself. I still strongly believe that standardization (to a certain degree) is inevitable in Shavian spelling, and I completely agree with all the comments that you quoted from the QS manual. But now I cannot see why 'if' should be favored instead of 'eat'. My reasoning in the past has been to do with stress, but I no longer believe it to be the case - I realized that treating letters like that makes the alphabet over-complicated and, in many cases, ambiguous. I've been trying to justify to myself in logical, human terms why I should still use 'if' instead. But I couldn't find one damned good reason other than that Androcles does it. Furthermore, what came to me is that Androcles uses Northern English, which does in fact use 'if' instead of 'eat'. However, it is stated somewhere in Androcles that Northern English is only the standard chosen for that particular transliteration, so there is no indication that everyone should use Northern English as a standard spelling system anywhere else. I don't speak Northern English - neither does anyone in this group, I imagine. So really, now I've really thought about it, I think the standard spelling should default to 'eat' instead, as that is what the majority of English Speakers (plus myself) in the world really use.

Hugh

hIhI, it duz sIm lFk HAt duzant it! :) but rest aSPd F didant cEnJ mF styns t get on jP nxvz. F woz rIalI TiNkiN abQt wot reprazentid H spIc v H maJoratI v /iNgliS-spIkDz, inklMdiN mFself. F stil stroNlI bilIv HAt stAndDdFzESan (t a sxtan ikstent) iz inevitabal in /SEvIan speliN, n F kamplItlI agrI wiH Yl H koments HAt V kwOtid from H /kwikskript mAnVal. but nQ F kAnot sI wF 'i' SUd bI fEvDd insted v 'I'. mF rIzaniN in H pyst hAz bIn t dM wiH stres, but F nO loNgD bilIv it t bI H kEs - F rIalFzd HAt trItiN letDz lFk HAt mEks H Alfabet OvD-komplikEtid n, in menI kEsiz, AmbigVas. F'v bIn trFiN t JustifF t mFself in loJikal, hVman txmz wF F SUd stil Vz 'i' insted. but F kUdant fFnd wun dAmd gUd rIzan uHD HAn HAt /AndraklIz duz it. fxHDmP, wot kEm t mI iz HAt /AndraklIz Vziz /nPHDn /iNgliS, wic duz in fAkt Vz 'i' insted v 'I'. hQevD, it iz stEtid sumwX in /AndraklIz HAt /nPHDn /iNgliS iz OnlI H stAndDd cOzan fP HAt pDtikVlD trAnzlitDESan, sO HX iz nO indikESan HAt evrIwun SUd Vz /nPHDn /iNgliS Az a stAndDd speliN sistam enIwX els. F dOnt spIk /nPHDn /iNgliS - nFHD duz enIwun in His grMp, F imAJin. sO rIalI, nQ F'v rIalI TYt abQt it, F TiNk H stAndDd speliN SUd difolt t 'I' insted, Az HAt iz wot H maJoritI v /iNgliS spIkDz (plus mFself) in H wxld rIalI Vz.

/hV