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Hi Star
I was thinking the same thing, and then I remembered that a Schwa,
unlike other vowel sounds is either a standalone syllable, (i.e. ado,
abrupt,
occult, along, identity, oppose, diary, deity, idea, alligator,
malaria, equality)
or tacked on to the end of a consonant to make a minimal syllable
(i.e. supppose, decide, refer, potato, police, Motorola, Cola,
beatiful, harmony). And the exceptional word "an" also.
Usually an "Up" sound is used for any other position in the Word.
So You could use the regular Ado Letter when the Schwa is the
standalone sound at the beginning of the word, or represents the word
"a" all by it's lonesome or with "an" (i.e. an odd identity).
And anywhere else in the word, you would use the little circle.
You would add it in afterwards, like when you are crossing your T's
and dotting your I's. Put it inbetween the letters or underneath.
This would actually speed up handwriting.
And if you forgot to put in the Schwa? No big deal.
It probably would still be readable or at least recognizable.
(i.e. inta-resting = int-resting)
What do you think Star? Can you try it out?

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. And You would never confuse it with a Namer Dot, because it can
only apear at the beginning of a word.
_____________________attached_________________


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> You must remember however, that this was also made to ease the reading
> of handwriting as well, hence the base line tall and deep letters as
> well as the smaller short letters. Wouldn't the ado get lost? For
> instance, writing Abrupt in the middle of a sentance with bad hand
> writing might result in "He stopped, Bruptly." With the tiny circle
> being mistaken for a namer dot. The same small circle could be used to
> differenciate the dot from a period. But then, I have quick (read,
bad) handwriting.

I'm feeling extra crabby today. No. No I don't like it. I have never
liked vowel substitution. It is not our way.

--Star

> What do you think Star? Can you try it out?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. And You would never confuse it with a Namer Dot, because it can
> only apear at the beginning of a word.

P. P. S. If the ago sound can appear at the beginning of the word, so
might your little dot.

=========
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--Mother Mae-Eye

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I've been considering a method of transcribing shavian into the
traditional orthography. I think I've a pretty good start, though a
little confusing to one having no knowledge of historical English or
shavian, but I think it's a pretty good start. For an idea:

ae'v ben cyensidyrieng y methyd v cranzkraebieng sheeviyn intu dh
chradishyenyl orthogryfie.

Hi Star

Sorry, you don't like to substitute. It would make the handwrting
simpler and faster.

Also I said that that you wouldn't have to substitute the abbreviated
vowel sign for the Stand-alone Schwa sound at the beginning of a word.
You would still use the Ado.

Maybe we could use an Apostrophe instead of a dot, if you find the
concept of inserting a dot to indicate a Schwa confusing.
Hebrew inserts dots into the Letters, all the time, for a multitude
of purposes. Since I am quite used to Hebrew, I guess that's why I
don't find it confusing.

If I wanted to really revolutionary, I would suggest using a period
or Apostrophe to indicate a dependant Schwa (Tacked on to the end of
a Consonant) and an Exclamation Mark symbol
(Apostrophe over a Period)
for a stand-alone Syllabic Schwa, like the one you mentioned in the
word Ado, where the Schwa
sound is at the beginning of the word.

But I am much more interested in Evolution.

Regards, Paul V.

___________________attached_______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> I'm feeling extra crabby today. No. No I don't like it. I have never
> liked vowel substitution. It is not our way.
>
> --Star

> > P.S. And You would never confuse it with a Namer Dot, because it
can
> > only apear at the beginning of a word.
>
> P. P. S. If the ago sound can appear at the beginning of the word,
so
> might your little dot.
>
> =========>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Just because you're evil on the inside, doesn't mean you can't look
pretty on the outside.
> --Mother Mae-Eye
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven wrote:

> I'm feeling extra crabby today. No. No I don't
> like it. I have never liked vowel substitution.
> It is not our way.
>
> --Star

> Just because you're evil on the inside, doesn't
> mean you can't look pretty on the outside.
> --Mother Mae-Eye

I think it more of an abbreviatiation than a
substitution. If ever the possibility of confusion
were to arise then one could always revert to the
full form, something along the lines of Mr and
and Dr for Mister and Doctor.

It was not my intention to introduce yet another
heresy, only to relate a method that simplified
matters for me in handwriting. I use Shawscript
chiefly to take notes and record interesting ideas
for later use, and I have found that while jotting
things down I have no problem in writing out words
using all the letters, but when reviewing such
accumulations later to my distress i usually must
read each word carefully, as in, re-fr-ig-er --
ah! refrigerator. A simple glance is insufficient,
at least not in my case. Of course this comes from
a dearth of reading matter. I suspect too that this
is the frustration felt by those unfortunate people
who did not have the opportunity to become
literate as children and must struggle with words
and sentences that present no difficulty to the rest
of us.

PV's observation that the four simple vowel signs,
however elegant their form, tend to meld together
I think to be true, especially in longer words. And
as the schwa occurs so often it only seemed an
advantage to be able to quickly identify this sound
and be able without hesitation to acknowledge its
subordinate role, allowing the eye to move rapidly
to the principal bearer of meaning, the stressed
syllable. So yes, having a letter, or rather its
abbreviation, not of full size, is an aberration;
but the schwa is pretty much in a class by itself
which may, perhaps, excuse such liberty. Or may
not â€" this is really a personal choice where one
must weigh benefit against consequence.

As for the confusion that may arise with the namer
dot, this can be avoided by making sure one is a
hollow circle, and the other filled; or if this does
not appear convincing, using instead of a small
circle the crossed loop that results when one
continues the up-stroke of the \ado\ letter around
and back across the stem, which, when the lower
part is dropped, leaves one with a chubby-fish
sort of sign, actually a reversed old-style alpha.
Again, this will not be to everyone's taste to
meddle in this fashion, but everyone in his or
her normal handwriting will make compromises
if there is some ease of use (or comprehension)
to be gained. In my own case I have had to modify
a couple of other letters when writing by hand
because of simple ineptness, when in spite of
considerable practice with the letters in question
i do not seem to be able to produce any two
examples quite the same, an annoying circumstance
that tempts one to consider alternatives.

Now, who is Mother Mae-Eye?

regards,
dshep

>
> Now, who is Mother Mae-Eye?
>
> regards,
> dshep
>
>

She's a villain from Teen Titans, one of the few TV programs I watch,
since most of the rest suck. While not my favorite villain, I love the
saying. The other one I like is from a "Goth" character named Ophelia
from "The Life and Times of Juniper Lee" where in the first episode,
after spending the day at a birtday party and talking to the clown for
some time, she ends up having him make her baloon octopi. At the end of
the show she says: "Alright, slappy, octopus time."

What can I say? I like villains and dark characters.

As for the rest, It's a little early in the morning, so I'll read it
again later.

--Star

=========
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Just because you're evil on the inside, doesn't mean you can't look pretty on the outside.
--Mother Mae-Eye

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Hi D Shep
Thanks for getting my point. The Schwa (Ado) is probably the most
commonly used vowel sound in English, and yet from the Alphabet, it
is hard for me to sort it out from 3 other Soft Vowel sounds, On, Egg
and Ash. Generally, I use Ah for ON as it is closer to my American
pronunciation, in any case.
In any case, the ideal solution would be shrink the letter Ado down,
to visually represent the shortest vowel sound (Schwa) of all. I like
your new suggested form, but an even smaller form, which could be
inserted in later, like the crossing the T, in Roman cursive writing
would be ideal for me.
It is common in a lot of Shorthands to stick the less significant
vowel sounds in after the fact.
An comma or an appostrophe could be used to represent this variation
on the Ado letter in the Keyboard mapping. The semi-colon key would
then represent a regular Comma.
In anycase, this refinement would be more of a benefit for written
script.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. You bring up a good point. The benefits/efficiencies of Shavian
tends to diminish with the larger multi-syllabic words. We should
strive to be direct and to the point in our writing.
____________________attached_______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
> I think it more of an abbreviatiation than a
> substitution. If ever the possibility of confusion
> were to arise then one could always revert to the
> full form, something along the lines of Mr and
> and Dr for Mister and Doctor.
>
> It was not my intention to introduce yet another
> heresy, only to relate a method that simplified
> matters for me in handwriting. I use Shawscript
> chiefly to take notes and record interesting ideas
> for later use, and I have found that while jotting
> things down I have no problem in writing out words
> using all the letters, but when reviewing such
> accumulations later to my distress i usually must
> read each word carefully, as in, re-fr-ig-er --
> ah! refrigerator. A simple glance is insufficient,
> at least not in my case. Of course this comes from
> a dearth of reading matter. I suspect too that this
> is the frustration felt by those unfortunate people
> who did not have the opportunity to become
> literate as children and must struggle with words
> and sentences that present no difficulty to the rest
> of us.
>
> PV's observation that the four simple vowel signs,
> however elegant their form, tend to meld together
> I think to be true, especially in longer words. And
> as the schwa occurs so often it only seemed an
> advantage to be able to quickly identify this sound
> and be able without hesitation to acknowledge its
> subordinate role, allowing the eye to move rapidly
> to the principal bearer of meaning, the stressed
> syllable. So yes, having a letter, or rather its
> abbreviation, not of full size, is an aberration;
> but the schwa is pretty much in a class by itself
> which may, perhaps, excuse such liberty. Or may
> not â€" this is really a personal choice where one
> must weigh benefit against consequence.
>
> As for the confusion that may arise with the namer
> dot, this can be avoided by making sure one is a
> hollow circle, and the other filled; or if this does
> not appear convincing, using instead of a small
> circle the crossed loop that results when one
> continues the up-stroke of the \ado\ letter around
> and back across the stem, which, when the lower
> part is dropped, leaves one with a chubby-fish
> sort of sign, actually a reversed old-style alpha.
> Again, this will not be to everyone's taste to
> meddle in this fashion, but everyone in his or
> her normal handwriting will make compromises
> if there is some ease of use (or comprehension)
> to be gained. In my own case I have had to modify
> a couple of other letters when writing by hand
> because of simple ineptness, when in spite of
> considerable practice with the letters in question
> i do not seem to be able to produce any two
> examples quite the same, an annoying circumstance
> that tempts one to consider alternatives.

In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven wrote:

> What can I say? I like villains and dark characters.

> --Star

Do you have any thoughts about Merlin, who may not
have been a villain, may not have been dark, and may
not have existed? But persists in legend.

regards,
dshep

In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
"paul vandenbrink" wrote:

> Does anyone else have a similar problem. Is it an American Thing.
> As an American speaker, I accept that I use the "ah" sound for the
> British "On" sound. And in fact I can't really distinguish them.
> But I have learned to accomodate the ineffable "On" sound.
>
> Regards, Paul V.

Rent a James Bond movie. One of the early ones featuring a
Brit, not one with the latest actor in this role, as he has lived
in Hollywood for several decades and moreover, I believe, is
originally Irish. The secret of the short-o "on-box-pot" sound
is that it is, unlike "ah", rounded, as can be heard in that
cinematographically immortal declamation, "bOnd, james bOnd".

All other back vowels (in English) are rounded; "ah" -- to the
extent that it is a back vowel -- is the only exception, but may
not always have been. By accident some time ago I heard a
newsclip with the Evangelist Billy Graham. in the course of this
summary of his recent activities there was a segment where he
offered a prayer that included the invocation: "Our Father...".
The "a" in his pronunciation of father, repeated several times,
was well retracted and discernibly rounded. A little research
revealed that he is from North Carolina, one of the long-settled
states along the Atlantic seaboard, well away from the heartland
interior where General American presumably reigns unmolested,
a state generally thought of as conservative in habit and custom,
and if his pronunciation is typical of that region, in speech as
well.

Shep, D Shep

SNIP...

> In my own case I have had to modify
> a couple of other letters when writing by hand
> because of simple ineptness, when in spite of
> considerable practice with the letters in question
> i do not seem to be able to produce any two
> examples quite the same, an annoying circumstance
> that tempts one to consider alternatives.
>
> regards,
> dshep
>
>
I believe what you are experiencing in writing some of the Shavian
letters is what led Read to simplify some vowel shapes in Quikscript.
While some may view them as appearing less elegant in their printed form
than their Shavian equivalents, they are easier and faster to write
accurately by hand. And despite what some people believe, I would not
sell my stock in Papermate or Bic just yet as I believe handwriting will
be in use indefinitely despite the proliferation of computer technology.

Paige

>
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