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I do the same thing with on and ah. I also tend to switch up and ado, although I tend to go with whichever matched the original letter.

Strange way of spelling interesting you have there. I'd probably use either intxestiN or incristiN (int'resting, heh).

> Hi Circ
> Sounds like a good name to me.
> Thanks for answering my questions.
> The Midwest American Accent works for me as well. It is Rhotic,
> and a little simpler than the British RP pronunciation.
> In particular, Americans especially in the Midwest don't generally
> differentiate the British Soft o sound and from the Broad ah sound.
> I treat those 2 Shaw letters (i.e. on,"o", ah,"y") as the same.
> The Ian is pretty rare for me except maybe in the endings of words
> like Canadian and Indian.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. The use of the Ado or Schwa sound is pretty common in my
> English, as well. bunAna, palIs, tamEtO, inta-restiN

Hi Circ
My dictionary says it's in-tris-tiN,
but int-res-tiN and intD-es-tiN are fine too.
As for in-tx-es-tiN
Generally, I only use x (Err, British pronunciation (Ur) by the way)
for the "er" sound when it is the Primary
vowel sound in stressed syllable (i.e. urge, merge, dirge, turn,
urban, irksome, turk, jerk, confer, concur, stir, alert, swerve,
internal, guerney,).
I try and use "D" = Array for the much more common unstressed "er"
sound. (i.e. banker, tanker, walker, fisherman, mirror (2d syllable),
juror, ferour, jailer, girl, whirl, murder, interim,
alternate (noun))
Honestly, tho, I don't hear any great sound difference between Err
and Array. Maybe Err is a little longer and clearer than Array, but
it varies considerable from speaker to speaker.
If you don't hear the difference, go consistently with Array.
Just because it is probably more common, and you will be right more
often than not.

As for incristiN,
you probably meant inCristiN.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. There are few English words, interesting is a good example, that
have mutiple valid pronounciation. In Shavian, they should be called
Morphonyms, and only used when there is no valid synonyms.
Homonyms are a pain in Shavian also.
Still it is a great product, if those are the only 2 flies in the
ointment.
P.P.S. Anyone want to make a list of common English Morphonyms?
_________________attached___________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "circtf" <circtf@y...> wrote:
>
> I do the same thing with on and ah. I also tend to switch up and
ado, although I tend to go with whichever matched the original letter.
>
> Strange way of spelling interesting you have there. I'd probably
use either intxestiN or incristiN (int'resting, heh).
>
> > Hi Circ
> > The Midwest American Accent works for me as well. It is Rhotic,
> > and a little simpler than the British RP pronunciation.
> > In particular, Americans especially in the Midwest don't generally
> > differentiate the British Soft o sound and from the Broad ah
sound.
> > I treat those 2 Shaw letters (i.e. on,"o", ah,"y") as the same.

> > P.S. The use of the Ado or Schwa sound is pretty common in my
> > English, as well. bunAna, palIs, tamEtO, inta-restiN
>

Hi Circ

While in a general sense the basics of the Shavian Alphabet have been
agreed on, there is still a lot of work to done in writing down all
the details and writing up a full blown Teaching Guide. That
information is spread through over 4000 messages in the site archive
and even more so in the previous site archive under the original
Shavian Yahoo group. A good portal to both of the Yahoo forums and
some other useful Shavian Links can be found at
www.shavian.org.

Regards, Paul V.
_____________________attached____________________________________
In no sense is the Shavian Alphabet a strictly British product.

Even though the Shavian Alphabet was inspired and nourished by the
efforts and bequests of George Bernard Shaw and his friends, in no
sense did he take a proprietary interest. It was a gift to the
English speaking world.

I really doubt G.B. Shaw wanted the alphabet just to get his name
into the history books. I think he would have been just as happy, if
no one ever knew how Shavian came into being.

He like to help people become educated and I think any changes to the
Shaw Alphabet, that would make it a better vehicle for writing
English, would have been welcomed by him.
The fact that it was designed to allow both Rhotic and non-Rhotic
speakers to write English phonemically and with more or less the same
spelling, strongly indicates that he wanted an Alphabet that would
work with both British and American pronunciations of English.

George Bernard Shaw and the History of the Shavian Alphabet is not a
mental strait-jacket. It does not prevent us from making evolutionary
changes, to make the Alphabet work better.

So as for the future development of Shavian, this should be left open
to possibilities, excluding only radical changes that might renders
previous published works useless. We want the alphabet to be
developed by usage, not by 'fiat'
Ideally, the ordinary user of the Shaw Alphabet will not even notice
any changes that do occur, because they will happen so
gradually.

Albert

________________________________attached_____________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> Welcome to the Shavian Alphabet Forum.
> Unfortunately, lately our discussion on the development of the
Shavian Alphabet has lapsed.
> However, we still teach the Shavian Alphabet to one and
> all. I can provide a Subset of the Shavian Alphabet appropriate to
an English speaker with an American accent, if necessary.
>
> In any case, feel free to express yourself in either the Shaw
Alphabet or the more traditional Roman Alphabet.

Roman numbers are almost obsolete, but I expect that the Roman
Alphabet will still be around for a while, even tho it is singularly
unsuited for writing English. >

On Oct 31, 2005, at 3:16 PM, circtf wrote:

> helO HX!
> Hello there! Just figured I'd say hello to get myself started off on
> the right foot.

Hello, and welcome to the group.

> My first encounter with Shavian came in a new English textbook in 11th
> grade. It had a little side article about it and showed the key as
> featured in Androcles and the Lion, and I immediately decided I wanted
> to learn it. My friends didn't catch on so well, and as such I sort of
> let it die out. I occasionally would think back on it, write some
> things in Shavian, etc. but I never really bothered to truly learn it.
> I'd like to change that this time.

What textbook was that? Do you remember the title?

> I think I picked up on Shavian so quickly because I'd been writing
> phonetically for quite some time using my own little system. So it was
> sort of a natural extension for me. mI sistM wuz not kwIt sO nIs 2 luk
> at thO!

That looks a lot like ENgliS.

> Alright, I no longer know where I'm going with this, so I'll just end
> it here.


Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

Hi Philip

I was thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion
we need a standard convention on how to spell those peculiarly
Rhotic Sounds for which there is no specific letter.
Essentially we need some extra Diagraphs.
Currently, the Shaw Alphabet has 6 special letters plus the letter
Roar
There is
Are = ar (i.e. car, bar, far, garden, Arnold)
Or = or (i.e. organ, bore, for, Gordon)
Ear = ir (i.e. here, mirror, Cyril, Iraq, pier, mere)
Air = are/air (i.e. care, bear, bare, tear, fair, error, errand)

Array = er (i.e. walker, backwards, Alligator, harbour, enter)
Err (Urge) = ur(i.e. concur, current, burn, word, infer, deter, her)

There are also 5 Dithong or Tripthong Combination sounds for wichh
the Shaw Alphabet had no single letter.

1. oor (i.e Sewer, fewer, Boer, manure, Stuart, bluer)
2. ire (i.e. iron, tire, fire, choir, dire, inspire)
3. our (i.e. dour, cowered, flour, shower, sour, tower, power, glower)
4. ower (i.e. mower, slower, sower, rower, grower)
5. eer/ear (i.e. beer, queer, jeer, near, tear, clear, spear, fear)

I suggest that that we always spell these RHotic sounds as
1. oor = ooze + array (Dipthong)
2 ire = ice + array (Tripthong)
3. our = owl + array (Tripthong)
4. ower = Oat + array (Dipthong)
5. eer = Eat + array (Dipthong)

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Thank goodness most of these Rhotic Sound are pretty rare in
English, especially the tripthongs.

P.P.S. Most people find it conveniant to incorporate both the ir,
eer and ear sounds together under the single Shaw letter, Ear.
_______________attached________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton <philip.newton@d...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Shavia,
>
> I claim the privilege of answering the query on how to
pronounce "dour" and
> "doer", "boor" and "booer". I was born in Germany of a British
father and
> German mother and acquired traits of an American accent through
school;
> however, I dare say I can speak British well enough if occasion
demands,
> since that is the accent I spoke when I was a child (and even now,
when I'm around my father).
>
> I pronounce "dour" and "boor" (and "poor") with the "oo" in "wool"
(and in one syllable), whereas "doer" and "booer"
(and, if you want, "pooer") have
> the "oo" in "ooze" (and have two syllables). Hence, I suppose I
would write "dour" as dead+wool+array and "doer" as dead+ooze+array.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip

Hi Paul



> Ear = ir (i.e. here, mirror, Cyril, Iraq, pier, mere)



'Mirror' would be m i r D, 'Cyril' would be s i r a l, 'Iraq' would be i r A
k.



> Air = are/air (i.e. care, bear, bare, tear, fair, error, errand)



'Error' would be e r D, Errand would be e r a n d.



> Err (Urge) = ur (i.e. concur, current, burn, word, infer, deter, her)



'Current' should be k u r a n t (although the AHD
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=current> allows both spellings).



> There are also 5 Dithong or Tripthong Combination sounds for wichh the

> Shaw Alphabet had no single letter.

> 1. oor (i.e Sewer, fewer, Boer, manure, Stuart, bluer)



Surely, 'fewer' is pronounced fVD on both sides of the Atlantic?



> 5. eer/ear (i.e. beer, queer, jeer, near, tear, clear, spear, fear)



This is what C is for, e.g. bC, kwC, JC, nC, tC, klC, spC, fC. Only words
like sID (seer, one who sees) would employ ID.



> I suggest that that we always spell these RHotic sounds as

> 1. oor = ooze + array (Dipthong)



Sometimes, as Philip pointed out, 'wool'+'array' would be a better
combination, e.g. aSUDans (assurance), /jUDap (Europe), JUDI (jury), lUD
(lure), pUD (poor), etc.



> 2 ire = ice + array (Tripthong)

> 3. our = owl + array (Tripthong)

> 4. ower = Oat + array (Dipthong)



I agree on these three.



> 5. eer = Eat + array (Dipthong)



As mentioned, this is C, unless it's a word ending in I to which you've
added -D.



> Regards, Paul V.



Hugh B

'Fraid I can't recall the exact name of the textbook. I don't even recall it having a specific name, it was just "English Level Three" or something to that extent.

As for the err/array thing... you've got a point, array would fit much better into interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Morphonym... I like that! mPfanimz? Or mPfOnimz?

Anyways, in unrelated news... I've decided that instead of having my website just sit around and host files for me, as it's done the past few years, I might use it to help me practice my Shavian by doing the entire thing in it. Whattaya think? Which font would work best for a web page?

-----------------------

'frEd F kAn't rIkyl it hAviN a spasifik nEm, it wuz Just "INliS leval TrI" P sumTiN t HAt ekstent.

As fP H x-D TiN... V'v got a pqnt, D wUd fit muc betD intM intDestiN. TEnkz fP pqntiN HAt Qt. mPfanim... F lFk HAt!

anIwEz, in unralEtid nMz... F'v desFdid Hat insted v hAviN mF websFt Just sit arqnd n hOst fFlz fP mI, Az it'z dun H pAst fV yIrz, F mFt Vz it t help mI prAktis mF /SyvWn bF dMiN H entFr TiN in it. wudaya Tink? wiC font wUd wxk best fP a webpEJ?

Hi Hugh
Good to hear from you.
Thanks for pointing out some of the subtle difference between
American and British pronunciation.
First, in British Pronunciation it is almost impossible to find a
Native English word that starts with a Rhoticized short vowel.
(i.e. Array, Ear, Air)

But in American Pronounciation you do find a few. (Ir-an, Ir-aq,
err-or (XD), err-and (Xand), era (Xa), etc)
I think American pronunciation normally avoids ending a syllable with
a soft e or a soft i. (Mirr-or would be mCD)
(Current would be kx-ant)
You are correct about fewer.
"Surely, 'fewer' is pronounced fVD on both sides of the Atlantic?"
Would that make it a tripthong?

And as for:
"Sometimes, as Philip pointed out, 'wool'+'array' would be a better
combination,
e.g. aSUDans (assurance), /jUDap (Europe), JUDI (jury), lUD
(lure), pUD (poor), etc."

Americans now pronounce
aSxans (assurance), /jxup (Europe), JxrI (jury),
lMD (lure) and pP (poor)

jUDap (Europe) is an alternative American pronunciation, but
I think it is an affection over here more than anything else.

As for Ear and Eat + Array sounds, I have no problem putting them
both under one Phonemic Letter (Ear)
The "ir" sound seems to be disappearing in American English in any
case.

Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached__________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > Ear = ir (i.e. here, mirror, Cyril, Iraq, pier, mere)
> 'Mirror' would be m i r D, 'Cyril' would be s i r a l,
'Iraq' would be i r A k.

> Air = are/air (i.e. care, bear, bare, tear, fair, error, errand)
>
>
>
> 'Error' would be e r D, Errand would be e r a n d.
>
>
>
> > Err (Urge) = ur (i.e. concur, current, burn, word, infer, deter,
her)
> 'Current' should be k u r a n t (although the AHD
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=current>
does allows both spellings).
>
>
>
> > There are also 5 Dithong or Tripthong Combination sounds for
which the Shaw Alphabet had no single letter.
>
> > 1. oor (i.e Sewer, fewer, Boer, manure, Stuart, bluer)
>
>
>
> >
> > 5. eer/ear (i.e. beer, queer, jeer, near, tear, clear, spear,
fear)
>
>
>
> This is what C is for, e.g. bC, kwC, JC, nC, tC, klC, spC, fC. Only
words
> like sID (seer, one who sees) would employ ID.
>
>
>
> > I suggest that that we always spell these RHotic sounds as
>
> > 1. oor = ooze + array (Dipthong)
>
> 2. ire = ice + array (Tripthong)
>
> > 3. our = owl + array (Tripthong)
>
> > 4. ower = Oat + array (Dipthong)
>
>
>
> I agree on the last three.
>
>
> As for
> > 5. eer = Eat + array (Dipthong)
>
> As mentioned, this is C, unless it's a word ending in I to which
you've
> added -D.

Hugh and Paul,

I only found a couple of instances where I questioned your transcriptions.

I think that we should choose a dictionary to determine how words are
pronounced.
There are a few words where dictionaries disagree. Before we claim that our
interpretation is the best one we should be at least one dictionary to
support it.

Unifon, for instance, has a converter based on the CMU dictionary
It may not be the best pronunciation guide but it is free.
Unifon is supposed to follow the Thorndike Barnhart dictionary,
but this is not available in a free digital form.
_www.unifon.org_ (http://www.unifon.org)


> Ear = ir (i.e. here, mirror, Cyril, Iraq, pier, mere)

‘Mirror’ would be m i r D, ‘Cyril’ would be s i r a l, ‘Iraq’ would be
i r A k.
m-w.com: mir&r Unifon mirc sir&l irak

> Air = are/air (i.e. care, bear, bare, tear, fair, error, errand)

/E@`/ er ker ber ber/bar ter fer erc erand

‘Error’ would be e r D, Errand would be e r a n d.

> Err (Urge) = ur (i.e. concur, current, burn, word, infer, deter, her)

‘Current’ should be k u r a n t (although the _AHD_
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=current) (American Heritage) allows both spellings).
SB: 'k&r&nt also looks good to me. I can't think of a an alternative
transcription.

> There are also 5 Dithong or Tripthong Combination sounds for which the
> Shaw Alphabet had no single letter.
> 1. oor (i.e Sewer, fewer, Boer, manure, Stuart, bluer)
Surely, ‘fewer’ is pronounced fVD on both sides of the Atlantic?
/_fju@`/_ (mailto:fju@`/) fYc in unifon = FÚ3R

> 5. eer/ear (i.e. beer, queer, jeer, near, tear, clear, spear, fear)
This is what C is for, e.g. bC, kwC, JC, nC, tC, klC, spC, fC. Only words
like sID (seer, one who sees) would employ ID.
> I suggest that that we always spell these RHotic sounds as
> 1. oor = ooze + array (Dipthong)
Sometimes, as Philip pointed out, ‘wool’+’array’ would be a better
combination, e.g. aSUDans (assurance) uScans, (not sure we need both D & a aM-W:
&'s&r&ns
/jUDap (Europe), JUDI (jury), lUD (lure), pUD (poor), etc.
> 2 ire = ice + array (Tripthong)
> 3. our = owl + array (Tripthong)
> 4. ower = Oat + array (Dipthong)
I agree on these three.
> 5. eer = Eat + array (Dipthong)
As mentioned, this is C, unless it’s a word ending in I to which you’ve
added -D.
> Regards, Paul V.
Hugh B

stbetta@... wrote:

> Hugh and Paul,
>
> I only found a couple of instances where I questioned your transcriptions.
>
> I think that we should choose a dictionary to determine how words are
> pronounced.
> There are a few words where dictionaries disagree. Before we claim
> that our interpretation is the best one we should be at least one
> dictionary to support it.

𐑘𐑧𐑕, 𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑚𐑰 𐑩 𐑜𐑫𐑛 𐑲𐑛𐑾. 𐑯𐑧𐑝𐑼𐑞𐑩𐑤𐑧𐑕, 𐑲
𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑨𐑚𐑕𐑩𐑤𐑵𐑑𐑤𐑰 𐑯𐑴 𐑑𐑮𐑳𐑚𐑤 𐑮𐑰𐑛𐑦𐑙 𐑰𐑞𐑼 ·𐑣𐑿𐑟 𐑹
·𐑐𐑷𐑤𐑟 𐑮𐑲𐑑𐑦𐑙. 𐑝 𐑒𐑹𐑕 ·𐑐𐑷𐑤𐑟 𐑤𐑫𐑒𐑕 𐑥𐑹 𐑓𐑩𐑥𐑦𐑤𐑘𐑼,
𐑕𐑦𐑯𐑕 𐑲 𐑣𐑽 𐑯 𐑕𐑐𐑰𐑒 𐑩𐑐𐑮𐑪𐑒𐑕𐑦𐑥𐑩𐑑𐑤𐑰 𐑞 𐑕𐑱𐑥, 𐑘𐑧𐑑
·𐑣𐑿𐑟 𐑦𐑟 𐑷𐑤𐑕𐑴 𐑓𐑩𐑥𐑦𐑤𐑘𐑼 𐑑 𐑥𐑰, 𐑚𐑰𐑦𐑙
"·𐑦𐑙𐑜𐑤𐑦𐑖-𐑦𐑙𐑜𐑤𐑦𐑖" 𐑨𐑟 𐑢𐑰 𐑒𐑷𐑤 𐑦𐑑 𐑴𐑝𐑼 𐑣𐑽. 𐑞𐑱 𐑸
𐑚𐑴𐑔 𐑰𐑟𐑰 𐑑 𐑮𐑰𐑛, 𐑰𐑝𐑩𐑯 𐑦𐑓 𐑞𐑱 𐑸𐑯𐑑 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑫𐑤𐑑𐑦𐑙
𐑛𐑦𐑒𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑺𐑰𐑟. 𐑲 𐑓𐑹 𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑯𐑪𐑑 𐑚𐑰 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑻𐑯𐑛
𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑫𐑤𐑑𐑦𐑙 𐑩 𐑛𐑦𐑒𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑺𐑰 𐑳𐑯𐑤𐑧𐑕 𐑲 𐑢𐑩𐑟
𐑐𐑮𐑵𐑓𐑮𐑰𐑛𐑦𐑙 𐑩 𐑥𐑨𐑯𐑿𐑕𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑐𐑑 𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑧𐑯𐑛𐑩𐑛 𐑓𐑹 𐑥𐑨𐑕
𐑷𐑛𐑾𐑯𐑕𐑩𐑟. 𐑝 𐑒𐑹𐑕 𐑦𐑑 𐑯𐑧𐑝𐑼 𐑣𐑻𐑑𐑕 𐑑 𐑤𐑻𐑯!

Yes, that would be a good idea. Nevertheless, I have absolutely no
trouble reading either Hugh's or Paul's writing. Of course Paul's looks
more familiar, since I hear and speak approximately the same, yet Hugh's
is also familiar to me, being "English-English" as we call it over
here. They are both easy to read, even if they aren't consulting
dictionaries. I for one would not be concerned about consulting a
dictionary unless I was proofreading a manuscript intended for mass
audiences. Of course it never hurts to learn!


--
Ethan Lamoreaux - in Shavian, ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.