Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Brian,

The default font for the group is Shaw Sans No. 2.
If you post your keyboard map in this font,
those who have downloaded the font will see it as you posted it.

Sound spelling is probably the harder part of Shavian to master.

"mes&j in 'shA-vE-&n" is what you are trying to transcribe.
not 'shä-vE-&n (from _www.m-w.com_ (http://www.m-w.com) )

mesAJ in SyvWn

mesaj in SEvian or SEvWn

I think ths vowel chart (below) is available in the file section along with
a few others:
IPA and Unifon are 2 other augmented alphabets for representing spoken
English.
Neither are non Roman except for the 17 or so special characters required to
match the number of phonemes in spoken English. Almost 23 lettef-forms are
identical to the traditional Roman letters.

Handwritten Shavian is monoline and designed for speed. You do not have to
lift your pen to complete any character.








Hi Group,

Been learning Shavian since the spring. I would like to post all my
messages here using the Shavian characters. How would I post a message
using a shavian font like "Shaw Sans No.2" or the others. I saw some
older postings on the old Shavian group which were all in Shavian. I
tried to use HTML tags in the message like mF mesAJ in SyvWn but it did not
show correctly in the preview. I did not try to post it. Maybe it works
then. Will see with this post.

Thanks for the help,
Brian

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Sound spelling is probably the harder part of Shavian to master.
>
> "mes&j in 'shA-vE-&n" is what you are trying to transcribe.
> not 'shä-vE-&n (from _www.m-w.com_
(http://www.m-w.com) )
>

Thanks for the info and link!

> If you post your keyboard map in this font...

How do I do this? Do I use a email client to post instead of the yahoo
interface?

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Spicer wurdbendur@g...>
wrote:
>
>Instead of switching fonts, you may want to try Unicode...What system
>are you using now? The solution will depend on
> your computer and available software.

My computer uses Windows-XP-Home. I was able to get unicode to work
after installing the code2001 font along with simplified chinese for
the required unicode system files.

Thanks for the replies. I'll try the email approach.
Brian

On Aug 20, 2005, at 3:48 PM, bdasts wrote:

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
>> Sound spelling is probably the harder part of Shavian to master.
>>
>> "mes&j in 'shA-vE-&n" is what you are trying to transcribe.
>> not 'shä-vE-&n (from _www.m-w.com_
> (http://www.m-w.com) )
>>
>
> Thanks for the info and link!

Actually, either pronunciation of Shavian is correct (SYvWn or SEvWn),
so you're both right.

>> If you post your keyboard map in this font...
>
> How do I do this? Do I use a email client to post instead of the yahoo
> interface?

You'll have to use a client that supports HTML or Rich Text emails.
Most common clients for Windows should handle this. Then you can
change the font of your Shavian text to whatever Shavian font you'd
like to use (Shaw Sans No. 2 is recommended, though). Anybody who can
receive HTML in emails should be able to view it correctly, and the
others can read the keyboard Shavian.

> My computer uses Windows-XP-Home. I was able to get unicode to work
> after installing the code2001 font along with simplified chinese for
> the required unicode system files.

You can also find some other fonts that support Unicode Shavian here:
http://www.travelphrases.info/gallery/Fonts_Shavian.html
And I believe there are keyboard layouts available in the Files section
of the Group site, which will allow you to type Unicode Shavian. As
long as you're using an email client, this should work correctly for
almost everybody with the proper fonts.

I hope that helps,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 ·𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

Hi Brian
Not all E-Mail clients support HTML well enough to produce Shaw
Characters.
Eudora doesn't work for me.
It will show HTML characters but not produce them in a New message.
I don't think that the Microsoft Outlook works completely either.
As an alternate solution,
you could go to www.shavian.org
and use
Hugh Birkenhead's Ikonboard
http://www.shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi
It has Shavian Post facility/environment
You just download and install the Shawvian San 2 font and away
you go.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Anybody willing to recommend E-Mail Clients?
______________attached____________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "bdasts" <bdasts@y...> wrote:
> How do I do this? Do I use a email client to post instead of the yahoo
> interface?

Hi Brian



Welcome to the group.



If you're using Outlook Express or Outlook, you'll need to post to
shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com using that client. The web interface cannot
support HTML in postings.



When writing a message in OE/Outlook, simply choose the "Shaw Sans No.2"
font from the drop-down fonts list (available at
http://mixsynth.fearfulsilence.com/shavian/content/cshaws2.ttf). When you
post the message, everyone else in the group will receive it in Shavian
text.



lUkiN fPwDd t sum mP /SEvIan konvDsESan! :)



Hugh B





> -----Original Message-----

> From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]

> On Behalf Of bdasts

> Sent: 20 August 2005 21:49

> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: New member, posting question

>

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:

> > Sound spelling is probably the harder part of Shavian to master.

> >

> > "mes&j in 'shA-vE-&n" is what you are trying to transcribe.

> > not 'shä-vE-&n (from _www.m-w.com_

> (http://www.m-w.com) )

> >

>

> Thanks for the info and link!

>

> > If you post your keyboard map in this font...

>

> How do I do this? Do I use a email client to post instead of the yahoo

> interface?

>

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Spicer wurdbendur@g...>

> wrote:

> >

> >Instead of switching fonts, you may want to try Unicode...What system

> >are you using now? The solution will depend on

> > your computer and available software.

>

> My computer uses Windows-XP-Home. I was able to get unicode to work

> after installing the code2001 font along with simplified chinese for

> the required unicode system files.

>

> Thanks for the replies. I'll try the email approach.

> Brian

>

>

>

>

>

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>

Hi Brian
Hugh is correct, the Outlook Email Software does appear to show
Shavian characters in a message properly, provided you have installed
the correct font.
Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached_________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Hi Brian
> If you're using Outlook Express or Outlook, you'll need to post to
> shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com using that client. The web interface
cannot
> support HTML in postings.
> When writing a message in OE/Outlook, simply choose the "Shaw Sans
No.2"
> font from the drop-down fonts list (available at
> http://mixsynth.fearfulsilence.com/shavian/content/cshaws2.ttf).
When you
> post the message, everyone else in the group will receive it in
Shavian
> text.

Ethan wrote:



paul vandenbrink wrote:

Hi Star
Yes, Tweeking, yes.
I am willing to restrain my impulses for unrestricted change if I
can find some co-operation.
Thanks for starting the ball rolling.
I am still trying to persuade Philip to go along.

First, I am not a fan of either bee or bib, but how about splitting
the difference and calling it Beeb. Sounds better than bub or boob,
which might confused with Tit.
Can not have people embarrassed to use the letter names.
So only as a starting point, lets look at what we can do.
1. Adoo (ado)


2. Alef (ash)
3. Beeb (Bib) rhymes with Dweebs
4. Delta (dead)
5. Ester (egg)
6. Ein-way (age) rhymes with Janeway from Star Trek Voyager
7. Fey (Fee)
8. Guggle or Gimmel (Gag)
9. Hey (Ha-Ha)
10. Ai-way (Ice) rhymes with Highway



As I told Philip, I was "concerned that the Original Samples/Names
of the Shaw Alphabet were an unnecessary hurdle for someone familar
with the order of the Roman Alphabet."
These names are better, in the respect, that these names are Names,
not Common Nouns which represent other things.
The new names are being tailored to be representative of the sound
being named, without having an pre-existing meaning.
Also there is no reason that we could not retain something of the
same order of Letters as the Roman Alphabet. The Cyrillic, Hebrew
and Greek Alphabets all have similar Letter Orders, with out any
adverse effect, that I can see. It certainly helps me when I am
looking for a word in a foreign Dictionary.

As for getting consensus and "buy-in" on the renaming and reordering
the Shaw Alphabet.
I think we already have a consensus that there is a problem with
some of the names.
As for tweaking some of the names, it has been done in the past and
it will be done in the future.
How many people use Err instead of Urge as the Shavian letter name
for the Stressed "Er" sound?
Also there is the fact that this question keeps coming up from
novice users.
I don't think the problem can be layed to rest by saying, hey that's
a good idea, but I don't think the rest of them will agree.

As for Philip's point that the Shaw alphabet uses
voiced/voiceless pairs of letters and this correspondence should not
be ignored. The close correspondence in sound should be matched by a
close correspondence in Letter order.
Personally, I don't think we need to highlight this relationship in
the ordering of the letters because it is already highlighted in the
symetry of the letter shapes. But anyway, we could modify the
Shavian alphabet to pair up these letters, while still retaining
something of the semblence of the Roman Alphabet. (i.e. a b p d t e
v f g k h i j ch ...)
Aesthetics seem less important to me than simplicity and ease of
learning.

Comments?

Regards, Paul V.


Well, for what it's worth, here are the changes I've been using for
some time.  Not as radical as some, but it fixes a few problems. 



peep bib

tot dad (Dead: negative)

kick gig (Gag: negative)

How about "The tot kicked him till he gagged, now he's dead..." :)

fee vow

thigh they

so zoo

sure genre (Measure: what sound is that?)

church judge

yea woa

ing ha (hung, haha: Confusion! Also, Haha unnecessarily long)

lol roar

mime nun

if eat

egg age

ash ice

ado up

on oak

wool ooze

out oil

ah awesome (In some dialects, ah and awe are pronounced the same)

are or

air urge (Many people pronounce Err like Air)

better ear (Better is bettER than ARRay, which is not the right sound
in all dialects)

ian yew



So there you have it.  Make of it what you like.  Comments are most
welcome.

--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 ·𐑤𐑨𐑥𐑩𐑮𐑴



That seems to be a better naming system.  I've never even thought of
those ambiguities you brought up.

paul vandenbrink wrote:

Hi Brian

Not all E-Mail clients support HTML well enough to produce Shaw

Characters.

Eudora doesn't work for me.

It will show HTML characters but not produce them in a New message.

I don't think that the Microsoft Outlook works completely either.

As an alternate solution,

you could go to www.shavian.org

and use

Hugh Birkenhead's Ikonboard

http://www.shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi

It has Shavian Post facility/environment

You just download and install the Shawvian San 2 font and away

you go.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Anybody willing to recommend E-Mail Clients?

______________attached____________________



--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "bdasts" wrote:

> How do I do this? Do I use a email client to post instead of the
yahoo

> interface?







The open source Mozilla-based clients should be the bset shot. If not,
Opera has a built-in mail client, though I'm not sure it works.  I know
that unicode works in Firefox and Thunderbird (and therefore netscape,
mozilla(, beonex).

Hi Ethan
As regards the tweeking.
Beeb is too easily confused with with Peep, so let me re-consider
that.
Your list seems quite a bit better than the original.
I have one suggestion though. Although Better is better at
representing the minimal "er" than "Array", perhaps there might be
something even better than better.
Some possibilities. Er-go, Earl, Ur-silla and Herc-you-leez

Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached______________________________________
In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Jeff <klkls@G...> wrote:
Well, for what it's worth, here are the changes I've been using for
some time.
Not as radical as some, but it fixes a few problems.Â

peep bib
tot dad (Dead: negative)
kick gig (Gag: negative)
How about "The tot kicked him till he gagged, now he's dead..." :)
fee vow
thigh they
so zoo
sure genre (Measure: what sound is that?)
church judge
yea woa
ing ha (hung, haha: Confusion! Also, Haha unnecessarily long)
lol roar
mime nun
if eat
egg age
ash ice
ado up
on oak
wool ooze
out oil
ah awesome (In some dialects, ah and awe are pronounced the same)
are or
air urge (Many people pronounce Err like Air)
better ear (Better is bettER than ARRay, which is not the right
sound in all dialects)
ian yew

So there you have it. Make of it what you like. Comments are
most welcome.

-- Ethan Lamoreaux - ·ð`°ð`"ð`©ð`¯ ·ð`¤ð`¨ð`¥ð`©ð`®ð`´
That seems to be a better naming system. I've never even thought
of those ambiguities you brought up.

hF SyvWn grMp,



wQ mF first pOstiN in SyvWn! hOpfulI H fxst v menI.



F stRted t lern SyvWn lAst spriN. F hAv bin duiN sO

of n on sins Hen. F lxnd abQt SyvWn AftD getiN

intxested in SPrthAnd sistems. won v H lInks F

kEm akros was t a SYvWn pEg.



F kAn rId SyvWn IsalI AftD a lot of prActis . F YlsO

wud lFk t spId up mF wrFtiN wic is stil slO n kontEns

mistEks. F fFnd mFself sQndiN Qt H wxds wen wrFtiN,

insted of Just writiN Hem dQn. F ges H mP F praktis

H betD F wil get. Just lik AnITiN els.



F wud ylsO lFk t HEnk evrIwon f H Ansxs F rIsIvd

abQt pOstiN t H grup in SyvWn.



t help in mF prAktis F hAv dIsFded t stRt tranlitxEtiN

pAsages intM SyvWn cArAktxs. F wil bI pOstiN HIs on

 mF webpEJ At:



http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com



regRds,

brFAn