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Hi DShep
I strongly agree with points 1,2 and 3.

I think point 4 has oversimplified what is a complicated question.
Which if any of the compound characters should be retained.
That requires a lot of discussion. Personally, 5 of those characters
are very usefula and important to me. I think like the 4 abbrev.
we can make some of these letters optional. However if we go that
route we have to define exactly what diagraph matches up with
what Shavian Letter (Compound character)

I agree with point 5 that the ease of reading Shavian is more
important
than the speed of writing it.
However, what I think is unique about Shavian, is that it makes
reading easy (phonemically anyway) whiie still making writing much
easier.
Shavian strives for a good balance.
Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached___________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
>
> dshep wrote:
>
> > /reply to message 1503 from //Ethan: /
The following 5 points.
1. And not to be elitist, but it does matter what linguists and
educators might say about any new combination spelling reform and
alphabet.
What they think
will influence the authorities, who have the means to support any new
idea with funds and direction.

2. Just a brief introductory session in the schools could
have a big effect in making young people know that Shavian is out
there.

3. The complaints of this group are not what interests me. Rather, it
is the slim possibility that Shavian, a writing system based upon
clarity of display and simplicity of organization, both of which have
pedagogical benefits
might someday, with a little help, be seen as a
worthwhile complement to the standard script.

4. And as for the last eight Shavian Letters, the compound letters,
while they are not really necessary, everything else is.

5.I consider however the intention of Shavian is to serve as
a fully adequate alternative alphabet, where the simplicity lies in
ready reading comprehension rather than swiftness of writing.
Newspapers aren't written in shorthand, are they?

Hi DaShep
Unfortunately, that is an archaic pronunciations no longer heard in
Canada. Canadians have a shortage of charming features to identify
us from the Ubiquitous Americans to the south. We have a few
rather less than charming distinguishing features
which unfortunately I cannot talk about in mixed company. Let me just
say that one of them is the result of repeated cases of frostbite while
wearing the same damp underwear.
As for a badge of national identity, I will merely mention it took
us 90 years from Confederation to chose a National Flag, and the
original French Habitants of Quebec still resist the use of the title
Canadian for anyone not a native born Francophone. {sigh}
Thank Goodness the First Nations and the Newfies have swung over to our
side on this question, and we will not have chose a New name to more
accurately describe our second class status.
Regards, Paul V. a once and future Canadian
_____________________________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> Do you not pronounce 'about' as something approaching
> 'aboot'?
> I've always thoght that a charming feature of Canadian,
> besides being a badge of national identity.

> comment to message 1495 by paul vandenbrink

> > I agree. As a Canadian, I had to suffer with American
> > pronunciation and British Spelling, but after years of
> > fumbling around, I now consider myself fully bi-lingual,
> > at least when I am reading a phonetic transcription.

Hi DaShep

I agree students should be exposed to the reality
of Shavian early in their schooling.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. The structure of Shavian is of great importance,
along with logical consistency. Perfection, I doubt.
___________attached___________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:

> reply to message 1505 from paul vandenbrink
> Ha komanEsan ov loJik And bjMti iz
> prisFsli Ha AtrAkSan (And strehT) ov
> /SEvian. F dM not undarsAnd HOz NM
> bilIv HAt its stukcar iz ov nO impYrtans.
>
> > enIwE, F am glAd V R bak yn trAk,
> > n I hOp V rIaliz HAt /SYvIan haz a bit
> > v lMsnes in it, wic mEks it mP, nyt les
> > atrActIv t a wFd vDFatI v /iNgliS Vzxz.
> > it iz akYmadEtiN.
> > H pryblem iz HAt nyt anuf pIpal hAv bIn
> > rIlI ekspOzd t /SYvIan.
>
> And HE wOnt bI ekspOzd until /SEvian
> kAn in sum wE bI intradjMst intM HA
> skMlz. just an Qr pur turm wUd lFt
> a (smYl) spyrk, F belIv.

Hi Hugh
Is this code for gasps of disbelief?
Regards, Paul V.
_________________________attached_____________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
>
> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> GhV,
> V tUk H wxdz rFt Qt v mF mQT!
> --
> Ethan Lamoreaux - in Shavian, ·ð`°ð`"ð`©ð`¯
·ð`¤ð`¨ð`¥ð`©ð`®ð`´
>
> The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
> The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
> The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
>

Hi Ethan
You make a very good point see below.
But I don't think that the change that we are proposing, need be so
life altering as you project. To provide another symbol for the NG-
sound and to move the Ha-Ha Letter up to the Tall position is hardly
revolutionary, and can be accomodated with small change in any New
Shavian font.
Reactionaries who use the older fonts would see the original Shaw
letters.
The Keyboard mapping would be unchanged.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. there have been greater changes. The elimination of variant
f and s letters in the Roman Alphabet, back in the 17th century was
accomplished with out too much fuss.
_______________attached________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> I guess I do have a better reason than inertia, as you put it.
> The problem we have is that the alphabet has existed in a standard
> form for more than half a century, and other standards
> have been made
> from it,
> such as the standards for digital encoding of these letters. These
> standards do not change lightly, or for any but the most compelling
> reasons.
Such a change would even make the original "Androcles and the Lion"
obsolete, which has been seen as the foundation stone for the whole
alphabet. I don't disagree that there is a certain logical
inconsistency with Haha/hung, yet I must conclude that the existing
standard holds much greater weight than this slight inconsistency. I
also do not believe that the reversal of these two letters is of any
great importance to their use. The use of tall, short, and deep
characters is more for aesthetics, and voiceless=tall, voiced=deep is
merely a convention chosen out of convenience, seeing as how English
has most consonants divided equally between voiced and voiceless,
with notable exceptions being the nasal and liquid consonants
and the approximates, which have no voiceless companions,
and H, which has no voiced companion.
>

paul vandenbrink skribis:
>
> P.S. there have been greater changes. The elimination
> of variant f and s letters in the Roman Alphabet, back in
> the 17th century was accomplished with out too much fuss.


The long-s was eliminated in the early nineteenth century,
but what variants of f are you talking about?

--Ph. D.

Hi Philip
My mistake.
In my mind the variant long-s letter looks like an elaborate f.
I should of said, "the variant s/f letter in the Roman Alphabet
where the first letter represents the pronunciation
and the second its appearance. Sad to think that the Roman Alphabet
representation of English was once even more confusing.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I guess in German the v-letter is always pronounced like an
English "F" and the w-letter is always pronounced like an English "V".
How would they write the w-sound?
_________________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ph.D." <phil@...> wrote:
> The long-s was eliminated in the early nineteenth century,
> but what variants of f are you talking about?
>
> paul vandenbrink skribis:
> >
> > P.S. there have been greater changes. The elimination
> > of variant f and s letters in the Roman Alphabet, back in
> > the 17th century was accomplished with out too much fuss.
>
>

> P.S. I guess in German the v-letter is always pronounced like an
> English "F"

In words of Germanic origin, usually yes. In loan words, it can also be
pronounced like an English "V" (for example, the German word "Vase" starts
with the same sound as the English "vase").

> and the w-letter is always pronounced like an English "V".

Yes, pretty much.

> How would they write the w-sound?

Why would they need to write that sound? How would English speakers write a
velar click, also a sound not found in that language's phonemic inventory?

In loan words from English, by the way, Germans represent that sound with
the same letter "w" that the original word in English uses -- if they use a
/w/ sound in pronouncing the word, a sound not native to German. They may
also opt to pronounce it with a /v/ instead, saying "Vashington" for example
even when writing it "Washington"; as another example, "Wellness" may be
pronounced both "wellness" or "vellness" depending on the speaker and the
situation.

To generalise, I'd say that (a) younger and (b) more educated people (which
includes having had mandatory English lessons in school) would be more
likely to pronounce a /w/ in such loan words while older people are more
likely to pronounce /v/.

Cheers,
Philip

/ITan rOt:



helO, hV.
jes, Fm a mVziSan. F plE sevral difrant instramants, inklMdiN:
gitR
mAndalin
vFalin
striN bEs
pIAnO
YtOhRp
GFriS tin hwisl
Fv YlsO plEd vXWs uHD instramants OvD H jCz, suc HAt F kAnot rImembD Hem Yl!
mF mEn instramant iz H vFalin P "fidl".

F plE a varFatI v stFlz, inklMdiN:
blMgrAs
kuntrI
gYspl
fOlk
"Old-tFm" kuntrI
keltik
himz
klAsikl
n a litl smAtDiN v evrITiN. F dOnt dM rok, JAz, P hip-hop!

H best wE fP mI t sum it Yl up iz, a litl v evrITiN but a lot v nuTiN! Fm
nO prOfeSanl, in uHD wDdz. but F luv mVzik!



wQ, n F TYt F woz H OnlI wun!



F plE /hAmand Pgan, pjAnO, trumpat, drumz n pDkuSan, but F fOkas on Pgan n
rOdz pjAnO HIz dEz.



F plE n prAktis wiH 6 bAndz At H mOmant, plEiN fuNk, blMz, r&b, mOtQn n JAz.
sumhQ F fit it Yl in.



enIwun els?



/hV /b

hF /hV
TANks fP H pikSD.
ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
______________atAct_____________________
>From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
>Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] re: shavian spelling conventions
>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:23:27 -0000
><< image001.gif >>

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