Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

lital /wili, fUl ov glI,

pUt rEdiam in grAndmy'z tI.

lital /wili TYt it kwFt a lyrk,

tM sI grAndmy Yl aglO in Ha dyrk.

lital /wili, fUl ov glI,

pUt rEdiam in grAndmy'z tI.

lital /wili TYt it kwFt a lyrk,

tM sI grAndmy Yl aglO in Ha dyrk.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshep <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
>
> lital /wili, fUl ov glI,
>
> pUt rEdiam in grAndmy'z tI.
>
> lital /wili TYt it kwFt a lyrk,
>
> tM sI grAndmy Yl aglO in Ha dyrk.
>

The above test message was re-submitted as message
1416, but this time written using the Androcles font.
Although it does not survive the reply process, see
above, the original came in shavian, at least to my
browser.

What is it about Androcles, which I believe is one of
Ross Demeyre's original fonts, that allows it to work,
at least on Macs? Several of you I know use Macs and
I'm certain understand its processes better than I.

I can only guess that it might have something to do
with the special characters font tables and the font
Lucida Grande which enables anything therein to be used.

still guessing,
dshep

Hi Dshep and all!

>>Did your parents use the "New England short-o" in words such as "stone"?<<
No, they didn't, or at least I don't (my parents would celebrate their
centenaries this year). Like most North Americans, I have one less vowel phoneme than
his late majesty George V.

Bob Richmond

Hi Dshep and all!

Got both of the Androcles-font texts displayed in Shavian - on a Mac running
MacOS 10.3, using the AOL mail client.

I now have Shaw Sans No. 2 installed.

Bob Richmond

Hi Scott
I agree wholeheartedly.
These spelling conventions ensure that some of the most used words are
written consistently and with a minimum number of letters.
Shavian was designed to require less effort to write, having many of
the benefits of a Shorthand, while preserving clear easily recognizable
letter shapes.
As well as the four standard Shavian abbreviations below, there are an
increased number of single letter words.

1. a a
2. ah y
3. Aw Y {as in Aw shucks}
4. Eh e { as in Eh? }
5. I F
6. eye F
7. Aye F {as in Aye, Aye Sir}
8. Duh du?
9. Hmmn m
10. Huh u {Sometimes written as Hunh}
11. Oh O
12. Ew V {expression of disgust, like ick or yuck}
13. Ewe V {Lamb}
14. Yew V
15. You V
16. Are R
17. Or P
18. Air X
19. Heir X
20. Err x {expression of interruption or correction}

Any other single letter words that I might have missed?
Regards, Paul V.
______________________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Scott Harrison <nik@m...> wrote:
There are a few conventions in Shavian of which one should be aware:
>
> the ð`ž (H)
> of ð` (v)
> and ð`¯ (n)
> to ð`` (t)
>
> I would suggest we all stick to these conventions no matter
what
> dialect we speak.
>
> Now, I always thought that dark was done as ð`›ð`¸ð`' (dRk)

Hi Bob
I agree it is considered non-standard English in most American English
accents.
But it seems to have come back into favor in some of the British
English accents.
Regards, Paul V.
______________________________attached___________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> >
> > To this elderly American speaker with parents who spoke the
cultivated rural
> > New England English favored in Oregon a century ago, pronouncing
the "t" in
> > "often" is definitely substandard. The term "hypercorrection" is
sometimes used
> > to describe pronunciations like "oftten". Speakers such as my
parents were
> > very prone to hypercorrection, but what hypercorrections were
correct was to a
> > considerable degree determined by social class, with "oftten"
definitely declasse

Yesterday I posted two e-mails to yahoogroups.
Relevant extracts follow:
> But really I wanted to say:
> 𐑙𐑨𐑐𐑰 𐑯𐑿 𐑘𐑽
> 𐑡𐑪𐑯 𐑚𐑳𐑮𐑴𐑟
>
> (Mac OS X, pasted in using Special Characters box in mailer)
and
> 𐑙𐑨𐑐𐑰 𐑯𐑿 𐑘𐑽 (Happy New Year, Shavian,
> testing…)
> jb
They returned in digests as:
> But really I wanted to say:
> ›∆Œ˙›∆Œ¨›∆Œ∆›∆Œ° ›∆Œ¯›∆Œ¿
> ›∆Œ˘›∆Œ∏
> ›∆Œ¡›∆Œª›∆Œ¯
> ›∆Œ˚›∆Œ“›∆Œ®›∆Œ´›∆Œƒ
>
> (Mac OS X, pasted in using Special Characters box in mailer)
and
> 𐑙𐑨𐑐𐑰 𐑯𐑿 𐑘𐑽 (Happy New Year, Shavian,
> testing…)
> jb
The headers for the two digests were (extracts):
> List-Id: <shawalphabet.yahoogroups.com>
> Precedence: bulk
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:shawalphabet-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
and
> List-Id: <linuxfortranslators.yahoogroups.com>
> Precedence: bulk
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:linuxfortranslators-
> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(That took some care -- my clipboard has suddenly grown a cache!)
I'm sending this to Shavian group, with a copy to L4T group.
Wonder what tomorrow's digests will bring.
jb

Hi Paige
I don't think it is so much an error, as a processing problem
I think the mind is not as sophisticated as you suggest. It does not
organize words by how they
are said (very idiosyncratic, learned by mimicing as a child). Instead it
organizes words by how they are heard,
which involves a greater range of sounds. I doubt that vowel length is
incorporated into that
indexing.
The words "we're", "were", "where", "wear" all are almost indistiguishable
from that vantage point,
and are so are probably distinguished more by context in ordinary
conversation.
I have the same problem with "Well" and "While", by the way.
From the point of view of understanding the words,
the term homonym should be interpreted a little more loosely, than one might
expect.

This does not mean we shouldn't make the distinction when writing Shavian.
The mapping between pronunciation and spelling should allow for a little
accomodation.
That's why I am suggesting having multiple acceptableShavian Spellings for
some common
English words.
Unfortunately, this looseness does result in the occasional overlap in the
spelling of some
words. As long as these common Shavian Homonyms are taught, and people
realize that the same
Shavian Spelling can represent more than one distinct word, there should not
be a problem.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. We used to be taught the common Roman Alphabet Homonyms when I went to
school.
P.P.S. Imagine the difficulties of a child with even a minor hearing
problem.
__________________attached______________________________________
>From: <pgabhart@...>
>Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: Most Common English Words 301-400
>Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:42:19 -0500
>
>But does pronunciation sometimes prevent people from writing what they
>intend? If not, what should one make of this kind of error which I
>excerpted from spam received yesterday.
>
>"Well, 14 months later and where still together and planning our marriage
>for later this year."
>
>It seems obvious that auditory memory trumps visual memory for many people.
>How could one not recognize "where" as an adverb rather than a contracted
>subject-verb? Is this, at least partially, a result of "wh" disappearing
>from so many people's list of useful phonemes? And, did it not occur to
>the
>writer that there ought to be an apostrophe in there somewhere?
>
>For me, the vowel in "where" and "wear" are identical, but the vowel in
>"we're" is not the same. Do some people pronounce all three words the
>same?
>If not, then it makes the error even more difficult to justify.

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On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:00 PM, shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> I
> also realized it was set to an unusual font (MPH 28 Damase) which most
> people won't have. Perhaps it will work now.
>
For several years I have had Androcles and Ghoti installed under
Windows and BeOS, with the keyboard mapping that came with them.
(Apologies for the clumsy acknowledgement, but I kept no
documentation, did not follow subsequent changes, have changed
computers since.) I had Unicode-aware WPs (Uniwrite aka Global
Writer from Softissimo for Windows, and GoBe for BeOS) and knew of
the Shavian Unicode proposal. I wasn't aware of any progress until I
found Shavian included with a Linux business edition. No font, but
the documentation was there along with the character picker.
Recently I downloaded all the Shavian fonts I could lay my hands on,
some as bundled packages, others as byte streams, and installed those
I could on Mac OS X, which is Posix-compliant, has a Unix pedigree
via BSD and therefore more closely related to Linux than to ... (I
think I've fallen off the edge of that one). Some of these Shavian
fonts, courtesy of this list, had Unicode mapping, others did not.
One of the fonts lying about on my desktop must have been downloaded
with the rest by mistake. It was MPH 28 Damase, recognisedly Arabic
and as such presumably geared to RTL text and complete with BOMs,
zero-width hard spaces and other niceties. I installed it with the
rest. In fact, I think now it may have come as a package of
supplementary fonts (Anybody crazy enough to work with Linear B is
bound to need Arabic, so let's throw in Shavian for good measure).
Shortly afterwards I realised that the character picker on the Mac
was actually showing the Shavian alphabet, and that I could use it to
paste in messages. I accordingly wished the members of two yahoo
groups a Happy New Year in Shavian. This was successful insofar as
the messages reached yahoo correctly (I've been there and checked--my
browser had a Default setting where it should have been Auto, so I
had to set UTF-8 manually, otherwise OK), but was relayed to the
shawalphabet group, that's you, as Western (ISO nnnnn). The other
group got the Shavian message in UTF-8, but probably did not have
suitable fonts to decode it. I don't really believe that yahoo is
overcoming barriers to communication, rather the contrary.
Happy New Year in Shavian has PEEP as third letter. PEEP is the
first Shavian letter, the one under the cursor when the font is first
opened (under miscellaneous scripts) in the character picker. When
viewed under similar glyphs it returns a reference to MPH 28 Damase,
which has for no apparent reason become my favourite font. In font
view PEEP returns either A (first in the Latin or ASCII set) or P
(its keyboard mapping). I can sometimes manage to open a window
where similar glyphs to the Shavian set ARE displayed (UP has digit
7, perhaps the converse) but not with any consistency.
I'm about to disengage from yahoo groups, downloading no more
messages. So here's wishing you Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!
𐑚𐑤𐑵𐑦𐑞𐑦𐑯 𐑯𐑧𐑵𐑦𐑞 𐑞𐑨!
(It works perfectly well for a handful of other languages. That the
sounds before and after the spaces within the message are identical
is an aid to pasting. The phenomenon must be far more frequent in
Welsh than in English. Why, I don't know, but there's a lot of what
I've written above that I don't understand!)
jb