Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshep (and ethan) wrote in message 1519:
> ... ... ...
>
> > > digraph
> > > 1. A pair of letters representing a single
> > > speech sound...
> > > 2. A single character consisting of two letters
> > > run together and representing a single sound...
>
> > > You mean the first definition, I the second.
>
> > Perhaps. But I dare say the first definition is
> > more common.
>
> Maybe, but that does not make the second definition
> wrong.
>
> > Digraphs are what you are using -- that is, two
> > letters juxtaposed for the purpose of representing
> > one sound orphoneme.
>
> > Best example is your use of "ur" (a digraph, two
> > letters for one sound) to represent what is for most
> > North American speakers a pure vowel sound "x".
> > Perhaps you don't speaka rhotic accent, and cannot
> > appreciate the elegant solution this one letter (x)
> > provides.

> I use a digraph (definition 1) to replace a digraph
> (definition 2). No vowel affected by a subsequent 'r',
> especially in rhotic accents, can be called 'pure';
> rather, they are lumped together with the diphthongs,
> i.e., sounds composed of more than one element. The
> pure vowels are represented by the vowels of the words:
> bit, bet, bat, but, botch, book, and boot, all short,
> or lax. There are observers who point out that English
> has no pure vowels at all, and from an international
> point of view, may be right.

..... ..... .....

Correction: "boot' of course represents not a lax vowel
but a long or tense vowel, though some would still call
it a 'pure' vowel. The list was only meant as an
approximate lowest common denominator. RP speakers
would say that 'are', 'err', and increasingly, 'or',
are also pure vowels, but I don't believe most Americans
would. The distinction is whether or not there is a
subsequent glide, and even the above list is open to
challenge -- 'bat' is increasingly disyllabic in the
northern cities of the United States, 'bit' disyllabic
in the southern states. Even 'but' can add an indistinct
schwa, and there is the popular pronunciation of
'school' and 'cool' as \sku-ool, ku-ool\, or something
like that. It would seem that no sound in English is
immune to modification. Is it in the character, or
tradition, of English-speaking people to refuse the
discipline that, say, the French expect of themselves
in these matters?

Daniel Jones published the first edition of his "English
Pronouncing Dictionary" almost a century ago, and he
used as 'Cardinal" (by which I presume he meant 'pure')
vowels in his now familiar vowel chart the French words,
beginning at the high-front position and moving round
to the high-back (if memory serves me right), 'si, le,
thè, la, pas', and then, not finding a French word to
his satisfaction for position 6, used the German "Sonne",
then reverted to French for the final two, "eau' and
'rue'. I think those are right, or close to it. English
vowels were then positioned in approximate proximity
to these, 'pure' vowels. Some are near, others not

regards,
dshep

hF /skyt & /hV
F prafD t respynd in /SYvIan tM.
F TiNk HAt His iz an ekstrImlI gUd FdIa.
pDhAps wI kAn Just mEk up a list v Vsfal pqnts
n Hen pUtiN Hem intM sum kFnd v PdD
in PdD t mEk a ef.E.kV.es. fP /SYvIan.
F kan stRt TiNz gOiN wiT a kyndensaESun
v /kiNzlI /rIdz saJestyunz frum H end v /AndrOklIz.
ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
______________atAct_______________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
wrote:
> Scott wrote:
> I think as a group we have the capability to come up
with some sort of document indicating the best practices of Shavian
use. This document can cover the whole gamut of things Shavian --
technical issues like using Unicode, accepted norms like the four
abbreviations, things that make pronunciation different from Roman
but should be used for consistency like abbreviations, heresies like
limiting the letter set to the forty core letter, etc. If people
have a resource like this I imagine Shavian use will not have as many
issues. By the way, does something like this exist? Admittedly I
have not looked at all the different web sites in many moons now
since I have not been able to tackle Shavian issues lately. Instead
of writing a document like this I originally started making
translations and adopted these conventions in those translations.
Note that we can make use of the guidelines in Androcles and the Lion
as a basis, or come up with our own based on our collective "wisdom."
>
>
>/hV /bxkanhed sed:
> nO, nO /SEvIan FAQS egzists, jet. F TYt abQt H FdIa mFself a fV jCz
agO but Az YlwEz got sFdtrAkt. it wUdnt bI a bAd TiN t dM. nVzgrMps
ofan hAv FAQ‘z t avqd sxtan pDenIal topiks rIsxfasiN agen n agen
(hmmm)

reply to message 1531 from paul vandenbrink, who wrote:




Hi DaShep

I agree students should be exposed to the reality of Shavian early in
their schooling.

P.S. The structure of Shavian is of great importance, along with logical
consistency. Perfection, I doubt.


Nwot iz HAt Old sEih, Ha jurni iz mOr
impYrtant HAn Ha gOl, sumTih lFk HAt.

yvynti,
/dSep

reply to message 1530 from paul vandenbrink,
who, disappointingly, does not use "aboot:

> Hi DaShep

> Unfortunately, that is an archaic pronunciations no longer heard in
> Canada. Canadians have a shortage of charming features to identify
> us from the Ubiquitous Americans to the south. We have a few
> rather less than charming distinguishing features which unfortunately
> I cannot talk about in mixed company. Let me just say that one of
them
> is the result of repeated cases of frostbite while wearing the
same damp
> underwear.

> As for a badge of national identity, I will merely mention it took
us 90
> years from Confederation to chose a National Flag, and the original
> French Habitants of Quebec still resist the use of the title Canadian
> for anyone not a native born Francophone. {sigh} Thank Goodness
> the First Nations and the Newfies have swung over to our side on this
> question, and we will not have chose a New name to more accurately
> describe our second class status.

> Regards, Paul V. a once and future Canadian

F nO a nFs /kanEdian lEdi NM stil sez 'abMt"
(Nwic F fFnd rAHar seksi) And Nwen F tOld
Nur HAt F NAd it from an aTYritEtiv sOrs
HAt SI woz 'yrkEiak', SI wundarad if F mFt
abtEn jOr pOstal adres. F balIv SI intendz
tM send jM a bomb.

kYSasli,
/dSep
_____________________________

comment to message 1532 from paul vandenbrink:


> Is this code for gasps of disbelief?


kluks ov disaprMval, F SUd Tihk.

/dSep

query to message 1549 from paul vandenbrink:


> pI. es. vEz haz 3 kyman prOnunsIESuns,
> /kAnEdIan, /amDikAn n /britiS

Nwot iz Ha /kanEdian pranunsIESan?

kjMria,
/dSep

reply to message 1529 from paul vandenbrink:


wel, F surtanli Amm glAd HAtt sumwan agrIz wiH
mI abQt sunTiN. mEks mF Old Nyrt tingal it dUz.

It wUdant Nurt tM diskus Ha kompQnd letarz. He
problam wiH Hem iz HAt HAr yr tM (2) katagOriz,
wun HAt jMzez kamprest dFgrAfs, wun HAt duzant,
And HAt tM mF mFnd iz wun kAtagOri tM meni.
Nir it kumz agen!!! a SEvian in its bAr esenSalz
wud bI Iziar tM lurn ... bly bly bly, jMv Nurd
it Yl bafOr. yr HE nesaseri?

regyrdz,
/dsSep

reply to message 1557, in which
paul vandenbrink wrote:

> hi /daSep

> V sIm t bI a fV mesaJaz bahFnd evrI wum els.
> did V cek mF respyns t /hVz cyment?
> F supPt a big cuNk v yP pusiSan
> V R nyt AlOn.
> kAn wI diskus dItEalz?

> ragRdz, .pYl /vI.

> pI. es. wI SUd giv it a nV subJect hediN. sE
> stAndxd /SYvIan speliN kunvenSuns

jes, wI yr, its mF fYlt, but jM yr muc tM
prolifik fYr mI, its Nyrd tM kIp up.

And jes, TAhk jM, And jes, wI Sud.


Az YlwEz,
/dSep

Sorry about all the misspelt words. It's either me or my mail app,
which has been playing tricks on me recently, or just me too tired
to think straight, or not at all.

amazed,
dshep

reply to message 1559, in which
paul vandenbrink proposes:


lets cynsintrEt yn H letD "huN".
pDsanAlI, F wUd lF t kAl H nV letD "iNga",

fFn, HAt NAz atrAktiv asOsIESanz.

lIF H wUminz nEm, just t avqd cynfVSan. it kUd bI rInEmd
bAk t "huN" wuns wI hAv agrId it wUd mEk a dIsant
raplEsment, n duz in fAkt alimenEt H inkyNgrMAtI v "huN".

lets lUk At H rakwFDments. it SUd lUk lFk "mem" n "nun". it SUd
be a SPt letD. t mI, HAt saJests sum kFnd v wEvI lFn. wun pysabilatI,
a "nun" rOtEtad 40 dagrIz kQntD-klyk-wFz. it wUld lFk a lRJD mP
eksAJDEtad "tild" silabal.

dM jM mIn lFk His: ~. HAts an intresti~ FdIa.

it wUd bI IzI t rFt. it wUn bI wFdD HAn H AvDiJ /SYvIan letD
but "huN" iz nyt a pDtikVlDlI kyman sQnd, in /iNgliS, n is VzVlI fUnd
At H end v a wxd.

F dOnt TiNk it wil mes up H integratI v H /SYvIan letxz. enI uHD
suJestad SEps fP "iNga". just bakuz F TiNk a kVt /skAndinEvIan
SUd hAv a lyt v kxvz, duzent mIn V nId t TiNk H sEm wE.

ragRdz, /pYl vI.

wUd it bI posabal tM atAc a SYrt vurtikal byr
tM wun end, Hus mEki~ it a fUl-NFt SYrt letar
(Yr Ivan bOT endz)?

ri~i~li,
/dSep