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Group,

Paul V's post reminds me of far more important anomalies for us as a
community to settle than which way round hung/haha are or whether or not
compound letters and abbreviations are everybody's cup of tea. Perhaps, now
we're once again in a critical mood, we could have a look at them?

1. There are still issues differentiating 'ah' and 'on' in the States. It's
one of the only sound pairs almost every single person on this list uses
interchangeably. I'm quite certain that a large number of people simply
don't differentiate in their speech, and get confused as to which one to
use. We have a choice here to rectify this now or forever be seeing "pot"
written "paht". We either consolidate 'ah' and 'on' into one phoneme as Cut
Shavian did (which would leave Brits* with one less phoneme), or we simply
say to those who are uncertain: "use 'on' always and learn the handful of
odd words that take 'ah'" (from sources such as the AHD). Doing either of
these will remove the stateside issue with this letter pair.

2. There are still issues differentiating 'up'/'ado', and 'err'/'array'.
It's clear that although obvious to those with any linguistic training, not
everyone else can identify the stress in their speech and use these letters
in the correct contexts. Maybe all that needs to be done is to emphasize
exactly how to detect stress in your speech if you are not immediately aware
of it. Possibly people in doubt could submit recordings of them saying
certain words, such as "forward", "foreword", "circumference",
"furtherable", "perturber", "suburban", etc., and have their stress pointed
out to them.

3. 'Air'/'egg+roll', 'ear'/'if+roll', 'err'/'up+roll'. This is another
Atlantic difference -- Brits* observe vowel length differences, while many
(most?) US speakers do not. Many US speakers say the word pairs
"merry"/"Mary", "ferry"/"fairy" and "very"/"vary" exactly the same, where
Brits would say the 1st are short and the 2nd are long. This leads to words
such as "America" being spelt "Am-air-ica", "mirror" spelt "m-ear-or" and
"current" spelt "c-err-ant". This might be a little more difficult to solve.
As with 'ah'/'on', it might involve teaching ones self word lists, but
short/long vowels occur just as often as each other, and very often too, so
this would be difficult. Or, the 3 offending compound vowels could be
dropped altogether, with users required to use "egg/if/up + roll", but as
with 'ah'/'on' this would leave Brits* without a way of distinguishing
between them. "I caught the f-e-rry" - does this mean I crossed the channel
on a boat, or am I claiming to have apprehended a tiny winged person down
the bottom of my garden?

These issues are a problem because they lead to excessive spelling
differences where really there should only be a handful. Kingsley Read
wanted a standardised alphabet, not a universally inconsistent one. Cut
Shavian was my attempt at a solution, with my approach there being removal
of those letters that could be confused with others, namely "up", "err",
"air", "ear" and "on", leaving non-distinguishers only one way of writing
each sound. I notice that many people were not keen on the idea, mainly
people who DO understand the 'offending' letters. So, if removal of letters
is not an acceptable approach, we should decide what is. In my opinion, the
only other alternative I can see is for non-distinguishers to learn, despite
their own speech, when to use the letters; that is, unless anyone else can
suggest any other alternatives.

We need a consensus here. Maybe we could spend a little time focusing on
these 3 issues, and hopefully working out resolutions to them? When we
decide what we're going to recommend, we should document our solutions for
the benefit of all current and future users.

Hugh B

* = When I say "Brits", I mean anyone whose dialect is similar in phonology
to British English. Irish, South Africans, Australians, New Zealanders, you
all know who you are!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of paul vandenbrink
> Sent: 13 March 2006 22:24
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shawalphabet] New spelling conventions
>
> hF /daSep
> F puzald abQt H kympQnd letxz fP menI a yC, n fFnaI,
> F dasFdad t gO wiT H lOest kYman dInyminEtP.
> sO F lUkt At H simpal /midwest /AmXaken Aksent.
> HX R 40 bEsik fOnymz inklMdiN H /Swy.
> hC iz H brEkdQn.
>
> 12 basic vowel sounds + 4 common dipthongs (I, ew, ow, oy)
> 24 basic consonant sounds if you group the voiced and unvoiced w-
> sounds together (w, wh). This is an exact match with the 24 Shavian
> consonant letters.
>
> So how many of the basic vowel sounds can be modified into an r-vowel
> compound sound. Let's see.
>
> 1. Schwa (a) -> D (mirror) Second "er" sound
> 2. ee (I) -> ID (cheer)
> 3. i (i) -> C (here, near, mirror)
> 4. e (e) -> X (air, pair)
> 5. ei (E) -> ED (player, prayer)
> 6. a (A) -> AD (unknown, except in expression "ar, me hearties")
> 7. u (u) -> (unknown in English)
> 8. ue (M) -> MD (sewer, bluer)
> 9. oo (U) -> x (sure, cure, urge)
> 10. oe (O) -> OD (slower)
> 11. o/ah (y) -> R (scar)
> 12. aw (Y) -> P (sore)
>
> And how many of the 4 Dipthong vowel sounds can be modified into an
> r-vowel compound sound. Let's see.
>
> 13. I (F) -> FD (fire, flier)
> 14. ew (V) -> VD (fewer)
> 15. ow (Q) -> QD (flour, flower)
> 16. oy (q) -> qD (foyer,lawyer,Tom Sawyer)
>
> So there it is all laid out for you.
> The key is to examine each word in terms of its
> number of syllables and where we would mark the syllable
> boundary.
>
> So how many of the above sample words come across as
> 2 syllable words. The Dipthongs(13-16) all come across
> that way to my ear,
> 13. fli-er
> 14. few-er
> 15. flou-er
> 16. soy-er (sawyer)
> So you need 2 letters.
> But some of the first 12 test words, I don't feel like breaking
> into 2 syllables.
> Which ones would you break into two syllables.
>
> ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
> ___________________attached___________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> >
> > reply to message 1529 from paul vandenbrink:
> >
> >
> > wel, F surtanli Amm glAd HAtt sumwan agrIz wiH
> > mI abQt sunTiN. mEks mF Old Nyrt tingal it dUz.
> >
> > It wUdant Nurt tM diskus Ha kompQnd letarz. He
> > problam wiH Hem iz HAt HAr yr tM (2) katagOriz,
> > wun HAt jMzez kamprest dFgrAfs, wun HAt duzant,
> > And HAt tM mF mFnd iz wun kAtagOri tM meni.
> > Nir it kumz agen!!! a SEvian in its bAr esenSalz
> > wud bI Iziar tM lurn ... bly bly bly, jMv Nurd
> > it Yl bafOr. yr HE nesaseri?
> >
> > regyrdz,
> > /dsSep
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

hF /daSep
F ekspekt HAt HX a fV uHD suc /kAnEdIan kompramFzaz,
but F
sXIuslI dQt if HE R H rasult v enI konSas efCt.
dM t H inflMans v H /britiS Aksent, wI hAv ratEnd
sum v H OldD prOnunsIESunz. OkESunlI wI wil rEtEn H
PiJanal /frenc prOnunsIESun, YlHO HAt iz les kyman
HAn it wuz.
genDalI, stAndxd /britiS iNgliS hAz nyt evYlvd Az muc Az
/AmXakun iNgliS. in H lAst 30 yCz HX hAz bIn sum
efxts tawPdz siNkrOnFzESun, espeSalI wiT H intOdukSun v
nV wxdz.
ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
_____________________________atAct__________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> reply to message 1572 from paul vandenbrink, who points out:
> > Az V kAn sI /kAnEdIan prOnunsIESun iz a
> > nFs kympramFz. it SXz 2 v H 3 fOnYmz wiT
> > bOt /amDikAn n /britiS prOnunsIESuns.
>
> yr HAr eni uHar suc kompramFzaz, And yr
> HE a rasult ov konSas efYrt tM bI distihkt?

hF /DaSep
H nPT pRt v /nOva /skOSa iz kYld /kEp /bretan FlAnd.
it iz fXlI FsOlEtad n iz separEtad frum H mEnlAnd
bF a nXO cAnal P strEt. H sentD v H FlAnd iz ykVpFd bF sYlt wytD
lEks. JentlI slOpiN in H sQT, His FlAnd rFzaz t rugad hilz
in H wFldD nPTDn pRt. H nEtivz R muc mP hyspitAbal HAn H
lAnd itself. H inhAbitents R mEnlF v /skytiS /hFlAndD dasent.
/gElik iz stil tyt in H VnavDsatI. F suspekt sum v H OldD genDESun
mFt hAve ratEnd a /skytiS prOnunsIESun v "abQt"
enI wun nO wut H Old /skytiS prOnunsIESun v "abQt" wUd
sQnd lFk?

"/nMnavit" iz H nPTmOt pRt v /kAnadu. it inklUdz H mAgnetik nPT
pOl yn /KPnwYlis FlAnd aLON wiT an YlmOst inexYstabal suplF v
Fs n ryk. wI gAv it bAk t H /eskimoz a wFal bAk.
muc v it iz inAksesabal aksept bF plEn mOst v H yC.
F suspekt mOst v H nEtivz wUd hed dQn sQT, if it didant
rakwFD an ekspensiv XplEn tikat.
F wuz HX fP a kupal v munTs 30 yIDz agO in H sumD.
it wuz fOgd in a lyt in H sumD tM,
sO lAndiN H plEn wuz sumtFmz hit P mis.
bF H wE, kumpusez dOnt wxk klOs t H mAgnetik nPT
pOl, sO H pFlut rIalI xn HX munI wen H fyg rOlz in.
/kAnadu iz an AmEziN plEs t vizit if V haV yP On kanU.

ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
/pI. /es. adresas intO /kAnadu dM nOt wxk
wiTQt AdiN H sIkret pOstal kOd.
ask enI pOstAl wxkD.
smelI! perhAps V mIn H tradiSunal /kAnEdIan /pI sMp
Tik anuf t bI trAnspPtad in a brQn pEpD bAg?
y. wut memarIz HAt briNz bAk.
_______________atAct___________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> reply to message 1571 from paul vandenbrink, who asked:
> > pDhAps V kAn sYlv H mistDI n tel mI
> > frum wic pryvens SI, His lEdI, hEalz.
>
> /nOva /skOSa.
>
> > pDhAps /nMnavit
>
> Nwer iz "/nMnavit"?
>
> > it iz bIyynd enI kunsIvabal pysabilatI HAt
> > enI sEn pDsun wUd Afekt a /kunEdIan Aksent.
>
> F balIv HE balIv HE (/nOva /skOSanz) yr
> a pIpal apyrt.
>
> >stIl, hD kwik wit n wiliNnes t rezort t H
> > bYm, bOT
> > suJest SI hAz bIn lYN Absent frum H hRt v
> > /kunEdIan kulcD, suc Az it iz.
>
> F NAv eksplEnd tm Nur HAt sendih bombz in
> Ha mEl NAz surtan konsakwenziz suc Az prizan
> tFm, sO SI NAz ralentad And wUd nQ Onli
> wiS tM send jM sumTih smeli. sO, adres plIz.

Hi /hV
Let me give you my take on the 3 important Shavian issues that you
raised.

On the 1st point. I consider the issues of people not
differentiating 'ah' and 'on' and using these letters
interchangeably, to be the biggest problem facing the
Shavian Spelling system.
Most people simply pick the letter which is closest to what is
being used in the Roman spelling of the word.
If it is written with an "a" in Roman Spelling,
then they write "ah"
If it is written with an "o",
then they write "on".
They should be able to pick the correct letter by listening
to their own
pronunciation, but as Hugh correctly acertained, the majority of
Americans do not hear any difference and in fact do not even
pronounce the 2 sounds differently. Usually, they just pronounce
the "ah" sound.
I would suggest reserving the letter "on" for people who speak
British English, and recommending that they limit its use to clear
cut cases. A list of the most common words that use the "on" sounds
would be useful teaching tool.
If the sound is indeterminate to their ear,
they should go with "ah" letter as well.
This is very regular variation in pronunciation,
and as long as people understand what is happening,
and they recognise the accent of the person writing,
they should be able to recognise a word in either form.
This will certainly minimize confusion for everyone.
This point and to a certain extent the next point are what
makes learning Shavian much more difficult for an American
English speaker to learn than
a British speaker.

On the 2d point, on the issue of differentiating 'up'/'ado',
and 'err'/'array'. As a Rhotic American Speaker, the difference is
not obvious.
I only hear the difference
after long practice and with the assistance of Hugh and others
in providing me with minimal pairs to accentuate that difference.
And in fact, I did have Linguistic training.
In my accent, both the "up" sound and the "Err" sound are much
longer and more clearly pronounced than their shorter "ado"
and "array" counterparts.
They are both much rarer, too.
And because the "up" sound and the "Err" sound are both rarer
and more clearly pronounced than their shorter "ado" and "array"
counterparts, when the sound is indeterminate (not obvious),
I will always go with the "ado" and "array" Shavian letters
to represent those sounds.
I suspect that in the British accent it more common for people
to pronounce the full "up" sound and "Err" sounds, rather than their
shorter counterparts.
Obviously, this problem needs more investigation.
From what Hugh was saying about words such as "forward", "foreword",
"circumference",
"furtherable", "perturber", "suburban", it might be that I and other
Americans, are not stressing some syllables that the British speakers
are consistently stressing.
For example, words such as "forward" and "foreword" are Homonyms to
me. There is no stress differentiation whatever.


On the 3d point. I consider this to be more an issue
on where to break
the syllable when the R-sound follows the vowel. Does the R merge
with the vowel, as it usually does in Rhotic English, or is it
shifted to the beginning of next syllable, which is quite likely to
occur in Non-Rhotic English. This makes for a much more more
recognisable pronunciation for speakers of Non-Rhotic English.

Because this is fairly regular variation in pronunciation,
and so as long as people understand what is happening,
they should be able to recognise the word in either form.
People should try and be consistent within their Accent group.
Let's give this issue a lower priority for now.
Regards, Paul V.
________________attached___________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
wrote:
> 1. There are still issues differentiating 'ah' and 'on' in the
States. It's
> one of the only sound pairs almost every single person on this list
uses
> interchangeably. I'm quite certain that a large number of people
simply
> don't differentiate in their speech, and get confused as to which
one to
> use. We have a choice here to rectify this now or forever be
seeing "pot"
> written "paht". We either consolidate 'ah' and 'on' into one
phoneme as Cut
> Shavian did (which would leave Brits* with one less phoneme), or we
simply
> say to those who are uncertain: "use 'on' always and learn the
handful of
> odd words that take 'ah'" (from sources such as the AHD). Doing
either of
> these will remove the stateside issue with this letter pair.
>
> 2. There are still issues differentiating 'up'/'ado',
and 'err'/'array'.
> It's clear that although obvious to those with any linguistic
training, not
> everyone else can identify the stress in their speech and use these
letters
> in the correct contexts. Maybe all that needs to be done is to
emphasize
> exactly how to detect stress in your speech if you are not
immediately aware
> of it. Possibly people in doubt could submit recordings of them
saying
> certain words, such as "forward", "foreword", "circumference",
> "furtherable", "perturber", "suburban", etc., and have their stress
> pointed out to them.
>
> 3. 'Air'/'egg+roll', 'ear'/'if+roll', 'err'/'up+roll'. This is
another
> Atlantic difference -- Brits* observe vowel length differences,
while many
> (most?) US speakers do not. Many US speakers say the word pairs
> "merry"/"Mary", "ferry"/"fairy" and "very"/"vary" exactly the same.

ekskVz mF, DaShep
"canoe" iz AktValI spelt "kAnM", sumtFmz kYld a kFyAk,
in H fR nPT.
it iz a slendD vesal prafxD bF /kAnEdiAnz fP H Iz wiT wic
it kan bI kXId yn H SOldDz fP lYN distAnsez.
ragRds, /pYl /vI.
______________atAct____________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> hF /DaSep
> H nPT pRt v /nOva /skOSa iz kYld /kEp /bretan FlAnd.
> it iz fXlI FsOlEtad n iz separEtad frum H mEnlAnd
> bF a nXO cAnal P strEt. H sentD v H FlAnd iz ykVpFd bF sYlt wytD
> lEks. JentlI slOpiN in H sQT, His FlAnd rFzaz t rugad hilz
> in H wFldD nPTDn pRt. H nEtivz R muc mP hyspitAbal HAn H
> lAnd itself. H inhAbitents R mEnlF v /skytiS /hFlAndD dasent.
> /gElik iz stil tyt in H VnavDsatI. F suspekt sum v H OldD genDESun
> mFt hAve ratEnd a /skytiS prOnunsIESun v "abQt"
> enI wun nO wut H Old /skytiS prOnunsIESun v "abQt" wUd
> sQnd lFk?
>
> "/nMnavit" iz H nPTmOt pRt v /kAnadu. it inklUdz H mAgnetik nPT
> pOl yn /KPnwYlis FlAnd aLON wiT an YlmOst inexYstabal suplF v
> Fs n ryk. wI gAv it bAk t H /eskimoz a wFal bAk.
> muc v it iz inAksesabal aksept bF plEn mOst v H yC.
> F suspekt mOst v H nEtivz wUd hed dQn sQT, if it didant
> rakwFD an ekspensiv XplEn tikat.
> F wuz HX fP a kupal v munTs 30 yIDz agO in H sumD.
> it wuz fOgd in a lyt in H sumD tM,
> sO lAndiN H plEn wuz sumtFmz hit P mis.
> bF H wE, kumpusez dOnt wxk klOs t H mAgnetik nPT
> pOl, sO H pFlut rIalI xn HX munI wen H fyg rOlz in.
> /kAnadu iz an AmEziN plEs t vizit if V haV yP On kanU.
>
> ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
> /pI. /es. adresas intO /kAnadu dM nOt wxk
> wiTQt AdiN H sIkret pOstal kOd.
> ask enI pOstAl wxkD.
> smelI! perhAps V mIn H tradiSunal /kAnEdIan /pI sMp
> Tik anuf t bI trAnspPtad in a brQn pEpD bAg?
> y. wut memarIz HAt briNz bAk.
> _______________atAct___________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@> wrote:
> > reply to message 1571 from paul vandenbrink, who asked:
> > > pDhAps V kAn sYlv H mistDI n tel mI
> > > frum wic pryvens SI, His lEdI, hEalz.
> >
> > /nOva /skOSa.
> >
> > > pDhAps /nMnavit
> >
> > Nwer iz "/nMnavit"?
> >
> > > it iz bIyynd enI kunsIvabal pysabilatI HAt
> > > enI sEn pDsun wUd Afekt a /kunEdIan Aksent.
> >
> > F balIv HE balIv HE (/nOva /skOSanz) yr
> > a pIpal apyrt.
> >
> > >stIl, hD kwik wit n wiliNnes t rezort t H
> > > bYm, bOT
> > > suJest SI hAz bIn lYN Absent frum H hRt v
> > > /kunEdIan kulcD, suc Az it iz.
> >
> > F NAv eksplEnd tm Nur HAt sendih bombz in
> > Ha mEl NAz surtan konsakwenziz suc Az prizan
> > tFm, sO SI NAz ralentad And wUd nQ Onli
> > wiS tM send jM sumTih smeli. sO, adres plIz.
>

This is an attempt to reproduce the standard vowel chart in simple
format, as used by Daniel Jones in his "English Pronouncing
Dictionary",
first published in the early part of the 20th century and still in
print in a
revised (18th?) edition. Cardinal Vowels are the reference points used
in the IPA vowel chart, and are French, except for no.6 which is German.
Jones was instrumental in devising the IPA chart, and I suppose he used
these vowels in recognition that English vowels are seldom pure, if
ever,
and moreover vary quite a bit from person to person and place to place.
The position of each English vowel here shown is not to be taken as
exact,
but as an approximate middle point of a larger circle of speech
variation.

Diphthongs (vowel sounds that begin in one position and glide to
another)
are also shown, as it is sometimes difficult to separate them from tense
vowels, which also may glide somewhat depending upon speaker.


The position of each word shows the approximate position of the highest
part of the tongue in the pronunciation of each vowel, as it would be
seen
in an x-ray of a person's head facing to the left.



Cardinal Vowels

-------------------------------------
1.si \ |8.tout
\ beet boot |
\ |
\ bit book |
2.thé \ / | \ || |7.eau
\ bate/ | \ ||boat |
\ | \ | |
\ bet | about \| |
3.elle \ | |\ bought|6.Sonne
\ | but | \ |
\bat | | \boy |
\ | | box|
4. la \ bite bah bout |5.bas
-----------------------


dshep

Here it is again, this time with the Shavian
vowel-signs.


Cardinal Vowels


---------------------------------------
1.si \ 8.tout
\ I M
\
\ i U
2.thé \ / | \ | \ 7.eau
\ E/ | \ | \O
\ | \ |
\ e | a |
3.elle \ | | \ Y 6.Sonne
\ | u | \
\ A | | \q
\ | | o
4. la \ F y Q 5.bas
-------------------------



hope this works,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshep attempted:
>
>
> Here it is again, this time with the Shavian
> vowel-signs.
>
>
> Cardinal Vowels
>
>
> --------------------------
> 1.si \ 8.tout
> \ I M
> \
> \ i U
> 2.thé \ / | \ | \ 7.eau
> \ E/ | \ | \O
> \ | \ |
> \ e | a |
> 3.elle \ | | \ Y 6.Sonne
> \ | u | \
> \ A | | \ q
> \ | | o
> 4. la \ F y Q 5.bas
> -------------------
>
>
>
> hope this works,
> dshep


Well, I get a mass of wierd symbols on my browser.
Hope it worked for everyone else,
dshep

Hi DShep
I can see what you are talking about, but in Canada and most of
Rhotic English speaking America, we don't have
all of those vowels sounds.
In particular, the Shavian "o" has moved frontward, and shares the
same spot as the Shavian "y". Essentially, the
low, back, unrounded "ah" and the low, back, rounded "o" are gone.
That corner of the Diagram is empty, which adds to the distinct
American Accent.

The Shavian "Y" has also moved in that direction (forward) to a
little bit above the "y". In fact, the most distinctive difference
between
the Shavian "y" and "Y", is simply that "Y" is longer and more
stressed. And the Shavian Dipthong "Q" (out/our)starts from the same
place as "Y". The Shavian "q" (oil) has moved up to be closer to "O"
(oat).

And I know that everyone says that the Short/Long vowel distinction,
is less about vowel length and more about a particular mouth position.
To say the vowels clearly. you need a specific mouth position and the
right length.

The length of the vowel still contributes to the recognizability of
the vowel in American English. And especially in differentiating the
mid-vowels ado(a), up(u) and wool(U).
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> ---------------------------------------
> 1.si \ 8.tout
> \ I M
> \
> \ i U
> 2.thé \ / | \ | \ 7.eau
> \ E/ | \ | \O
> \ | \ |
> \ e | a |
> 3.elle \ | | \ Y 6.Sonne
> \ | u | \
> \ A | | \q
> \ | | o
> 4. la \ F y Q 5.bas
> -------------------------

Hi DShep
I looked at your list of r-sounds. Looks good except for Bah.
You seemed to have introduced a indeterminate r-sound in the sample
word
bah. It can have 3 different pronunciations
Baa which is an extended "bat" sound.
Bah which sounds like "cop"
Baw as in an infant's cry. Similar to the sound in "call"
Perhaps you can provide more sample words using this vowel sound.

I found a few other differences to explore.
Would you rhymne either 'merry' and 'marry' with 'murray'.
I don't distinguish 'merry' and 'marry', myself.
Perhaps you can provide more sample words using these vowel sounds
to make minimal pairs that are distinguishable to my ear.

Also, I would consider a trailing-off murmur, to be a Schwa or Schwer
vowel
and sufficient in itself to be the second syllable.

I do not distinguish between or and ore.
I do not distinguish between for and four.

Basic Vowels, Dipthongs and R-sound vowels
==========================
And I only find 14 possible r-Compounds.
AD (arg) is an archaic interjection like tsk tsk, not really a usable
vowel for making English words.

I inventoried the R-sounds again.
13 of them seem to be directly related to the basic vowels and the 4
Dipthongs. 1,2,3,4,5,8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16.
Of those 1,3,4,11 and 12 seem to to represent a 1 syllable sound and
2,5,6,8,10,13,14,15, and 16 sound like 2 syllables to me.
I was surprised that they are not pronounced that way in British
English, except the R-sound associated with 16.
As well as the 13 discussed above there is
another one r-sound in English that doesn't seem tied to
any of the basic vowels.
x (blur, sure, cur, urge, courage, slurry, purge,
concur)
The addition of this r-sound (x) to the Shaw R-letters
1,3,4,11 and 12 plus the 16 vowel letters brings us to 22
Vowel letters.

If we add the British only vowels (on) and (Ian), you have the full
24 vowel letters of the Shavian Alphabet.


1. Schwa (a) -> D (mirror, murder) Second "er" sound
2. ee (I) -> ID (skier, we're, clears, cheers)
3. i (i) -> C (here, near, mirror(mCD), sheer)
4. e (e) -> X (air, pair, prayer, bare, bear)
5. ei (E) -> ED (player, Bayer's aspirin,grayer, soothsayer,
Mayor)
6. a (A) -> AD (unknown, except in expression "ar, me hearties")
7. u (u) -> (unknown in English)
8. ue (M) -> MD (sewer, sure, bluer, poor, Boer, you're)
9. oo (U) -> (unknown in English)
10. oe (O) -> OD (slower, mower)
11. o/ah (y) -> R (scar, tar)
12. aw (Y) -> P (sore, score, more, tore, torso)
4 Dipthong vowel sounds can also be modified into an
r-vowel compound sound.
13. I (F) -> FD (fire, flier, pliers, hire)
14. ew (V) -> VD (fewer, newer, pure, cure)
15. ow (Q) -> QD (flour, flower)
16. oy (q) -> qD (foyer,lawyer,Tom Sawyer)

I hope this classifies and clarifies the use of the R-sound
vowels in American English and how to represent them in Shavian
letters.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. While there are divergent pronunciations for different English
words. For example, sure can be "SMD" or "Sx" and poor can be "pMD"
or "pP", I believe there are only 14, vowel r-sounds in American
English.
____________________attached______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
>
>
> response to messages 1573 and 1574, in which paul vandenbrink
> compiles a list:
>
>
> > 12 basic vowel sounds + 4 common dipthongs
> > (I, ew, ow, oy) 24 basic consonant sounds if you
group
> > the voiced and unvoiced w-sounds together (w, wh).
> > This is an exact match with the 24 Shavian consonant
> > letters.
>
> I would count seventeen vowels, which may simply be a question of
> definition:
> beet, bit, bet, bait, bat, bite, bout, but, abut,
> bah, cop, coil, call, cold, could, coot, cute.

>
> > So how many of the basic vowel sounds can be
modified
> > into an r-vowel compound sound. Let's see.
>
> > 1. Schwa (a) -> D (mirror) Second "er" sound
> > 2. ee (I) -> ID (shears, hears, cheers, fears)
> > 3. i (i) -> C (sheer, here, near, mirror)
>
> Just as a check, the AHD (note use of abbreviation) rhymes cheer,
here,
> near, mirror (first syllable) as \Ur\, but I understand that it is
> question of emphasis,
> just as i do with 'we're'.
>
> > 4. e (e) -> X (bare, air, pair)
>
> 'Air, pair' for me is a much more open sound (Archaic?) as I
distinguish
> between 'merry' and 'marry', and would rhyme neither with 'care'.
The
> AHD
> lumps all these vowel-sounds together as 'â'.
>
> > 5. ei (E) -> ED (Bayer's aspirin, player, grayer,
soothsayer)
>
> Whether 'player' and similar words is \play-er\ (play-uh) or
\playr\
> (play@\
> varies from dialect to dialect. The AHD recommends two syllables.
My own
> pronunciation does not really turn the second part into a true
> syllable, but
> rather sort of a trailing-off murmur.
>
> > 6. a (A) -> AD (unknown, except in expression
> > "ar, me hearties")
>
> Long John Silver? Argh!
>
> > 7. u (u) -> (unknown in English)
>
> Blur? Err?
>
> > 8. ue (M) -> MD (sewer, bluer)
> > 9. oo (U) -> x (slurry, sure, cure, curry, blur,
urge, purge)
>
> Do you rhyme 'cure' and 'purge"?
> Both I and the AHD would say \kjUr\ and \urJ\
>
> > 10. oe (O) -> OD (slower, mower)
> > 11. o/ah (y) -> R (scar, tar)
> > 12. aw (Y) -> P (score, more, tore)
>
> I pronounce these particular words with a long-o as i distinguish
> between or and
> ore (as did the great James Murray of the OED) and so to avoid
> confusion, spell
> these words \Or\ respectively \Yr\ rather than use the \P\.
>
> I have (at least) fifteen r-compounds:
> we're, here, where, mayor, there, hire, hour, her, butter;
> far, ---, for, four, poor , pure, you're.
> People who use the intrusive 'r' can I believe supply words for the
> blank above (foyer etc.).
>
> >And how many of the 4 Dipthong vowel sounds can be
> > modified into an r-vowel compound sound. Let's see.
>
> > 13. I (F) -> FD (fire, flier)
> > 14. ew (V) -> VD (fewer)
> > 15. ow (Q) -> QD (flour, flower)
> > 16. oy (q) -> qD (foyer,lawyer,Tom Sawyer)
>
> > So there it is all laid out for you.
> > The key is to examine each word in terms of its
> > number of syllables and where we would mark the
> > syllable boundary.
>
> > So how many of the above sample words come across
> > as 2 syllable words. The Dipthongs(13-16) all come
> > across that way to my ear,
>
> > So you need 2 letters for some of the R-vowel
compounds.
> > But for most of the first 12 test words, I don't
feel it's right
> to break
> > them into 2 syllables.
>
> > Which ones would you break into two syllables? (1-
12)
>
> I would pronounce 'fire' and 'flour' more or less as \fFr, flQr\,
> but fewer as \fVD\. I also think 'lawyer' should be pronounced
> \lYjD\ but I know the other pronunciation exists.
>
> I think I would pronounce 'mirror' as two syllables.
>
> The r-compounds vary too much between place to place and person to
> person to ever have any exact definition of pronunciation that would
> please everyone, I fear.
>
> > And if it is a one syllable word, doesn't it make
common sense to
> > represent the complex Vowel sound with a single
Shavian letter?
>
> But there aren't enough of them. There is no single Shavian letter
> for numbers 1, 2, 5,
> 8, 9 (unless you pronounce 'sure' as \shur\), or 10 in your list;
and
> there are divergent
> pronunciations for 4, 11, and 12. We do not require (or desire) a
> uniform pronunciation,
> do we? Probably impossible anyway.
>
> impossibly,
> dshep
>