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On 3/27/06, dshepx <dshep@...> wrote:
> J. C. Wells, if I'm not mistaken, is originally from New Zealand

It appears that you are mistaken -- his CV (
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/cv.htm ) said that he was born in
Lancashire in England.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Philip Newton wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, dshepx wrote:

> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> > --- Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> > > I'd spell it "horas".
> >
> >
> > I think that's the pronunciation (horas) recommended for the Roman poet
> > Horace, with the same vowel as that for Ovid.
>
> I say Ovid with an "O" (oak), not an "o" (on) -- is this the
> horse/hoarse thing again?

No, entirely different. If you pronounce Ovid with oak you had
better check with some old English teacher of yours. You may have
to come back for an extra lesson.

> (I merge the two sounds, but I believe that horse ~ on+roar while
> hoarse ~ oak+roar for those who make a difference.)

Right. Horse can also be pronounced, jocularly, as 'haws', spelled
'hoss' in some parts of the west.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

cheers back at you,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Philip Newton wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, dshepx <dshep@...> wrote:
> > J. C. Wells, if I'm not mistaken, is originally from New Zealand
>
> It appears that you are mistaken -- his CV (
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/cv.htm ) said that he was born in
> Lancashire in England.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Can't always be right. Perhaps I was thinking of, what is that other
fellow's name, Burchfield?, current editor of the OED.

Thanks for the correction,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshepx wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> > On 3/27/06, dshepx wrote:
>
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> > > --- Philip Newton wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'd spell it "horas".
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that's the pronunciation (horas) recommended for the Roman poet
> > > Horace, with the same vowel as that for Ovid.
> >
> > I say Ovid with an "O" (oak), not an "o" (on) -- is this the
> > horse/hoarse thing again?
>
> No, entirely different. If you pronounce Ovid with oak you had
> better check with some old English teacher of yours. You may have
> to come back for an extra lesson.

Incidentally, I had to learn this the hard way. Very embarrassing it was.
Publius Ovidius Naso.


more cheers,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshepx wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> > On 3/27/06, dshepx <dshep@> wrote:
> > > J. C. Wells, if I'm not mistaken, is originally from New Zealand
> >
> > It appears that you are mistaken -- his CV (
> > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/cv.htm ) said that he was born in
> > Lancashire in England.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > --
> > Philip Newton <philip.newton@>
>
> Can't always be right. Perhaps I was thinking of, what is that other
> fellow's name, Burchfield?, current editor of the OED.
>
> Thanks for the correction,
> dshep

Yes. Robert Burchfield. But not the current editor, which would be
difficult, as he died in 2004. But born in Wanganui, New Zealand,
which sounds Maori to me.

even more cheers,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshepx wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- dshepx wrote:
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> > --- Philip Newton wrote:
> > >
> > > On 3/27/06, dshepx <dshep@> wrote:
> > > > J. C. Wells, if I'm not mistaken, is originally from New Zealand
> > >
> > > It appears that you are mistaken -- his CV (
> > > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/cv.htm ) said that he was born in
> > > Lancashire in England.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > --
> > > Philip Newton <philip.newton@>
> >
> > Can't always be right. Perhaps I was thinking of, what is that other
> > fellow's name, Burchfield?, current editor of the OED.
> >
> > Thanks for the correction,
> > dshep
>
> Yes. Robert Burchfield. But not the current editor, which would be
> difficult, as he died in 2004. But born in Wanganui, New Zealand,
> which sounds Maori to me.
>
> even more cheers,
> dshep

To give this one more go, and to return to the point I had originally
hoped to make, coming from Lancashire might not be such a bad place
either to be from in order to have a different perspective on the varied
possibilities of pronunciation. Of course he could have come from an
all RP-speaking family, who knows?

yet more cheers,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- dshepx wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> > On 3/27/06, dshepx wrote:
>
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> > > --- Philip Newton wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'd spell it "horas".
> > >
> > >
> > > I think that's the pronunciation (horas) recommended
> > > for the Roman poet Horace, with the same vowel as that
> > > for Ovid.
> >
> > I say Ovid with an "O" (oak), not an "o" (on) -- is this
> > the horse/hoarse thing again?
>
> No, entirely different. If you pronounce Ovid with oak you
> had better check with some old English teacher of yours.
> You may have to come back for an extra lesson.

This was both silly of me and rude to express myself in this
manner. I apologize. The things one says when in a hurry,
but that is no excuse.

Sorry,
dshep

Hi Philip
As I child I was told in the old days sailors measured their speed by
stringing out a line knotted at various precise intervals. By Counting
out how many of those Knots that the ship went by in some small time
interval, they could make an estimate of their speed
Nautical Miles per Hour)
and then calculate how many Nautical Miles they had travelled.
I assume that was more or the way it was done in the old days?
Regards, Paul V.
___________________attached_________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
<philip.newton@...> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...> wrote:
> > P.S. do those who have merged "cot" and "caught" think
that "nautical"
> > refers to the "knots" that sailors have to know how to tie?
>
> Good question. Searching for "knottical" brought up only one hit that
> appeared likely to be unintentional - for "knottical miles", which
> makes a kind of sense given that confusion with "knot" = "nautical
> mile per hour" is likely.

Hi Philip
Much as I use the R-sound vowels, especially when I am saying the
word quickly, I am still prone to recognize variation in Syllable
boundary and/or the redoubling of the Consonant sound into the
following syllable and or even non-standard syllable stress as
distinguishing factors. Perhaps even more importantly than the exact
vowel sound, in some cases.
Sadly, Shavian limits our representation of syllable breaks to th R-
sound letters.
Regards, Paul V.
_________________attached________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
<philip.newton@...> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> > Hi Paige
> > Where would the name Horace, fit inbetween Horse and Hoarse?
> > Just curious.
> > In Shavian, I would spell Horace as "hPas" which has a definate
schwa
> > sound (Ado) after the initial vowel sound "or".
>
> I'd spell it "horas".
>
> It's one of those things where different speakers assign the -r- to
> different syllables, I guess -- just as I'd spell, say, "mirD" but
> "nCD", while others would spell both the same ("mCD, nCD"). I think
> this is also the effect responsible for the fact that I separate
> "merry" (meri) and "Mary" (mXi), again mostly on the basis of which
> syllable I feel the -r- belongs in.
>
> I also feel a slight different in the vowel, though -- "mirror" and
> "merry" sound more like "mirD, meri" while "nearer" and "Mary" sound
> more like "niarD, meari" with an extra shwa after the "main" vowel.
>
> If you feel a shwa after the main vowel of "Horace", it appears to
me
> that you put the -r- in the first syllable, unlike me who puts it in
> the second. (I'm not sure whether this is connected with rhotic
> dialects in general; that is, whether they are more likely to put
> -r-'s into the first of two possible syllables.)

On 3/27/06, paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> Hi Philip
> As I child I was told in the old days sailors measured their speed by
> stringing out a line knotted at various precise intervals. By Counting
> out how many of those Knots that the ship went by in some small time
> interval, they could make an estimate of their speed
> Nautical Miles per Hour)
> and then calculate how many Nautical Miles they had travelled.
> I assume that was more or the way it was done in the old days?

That's what I had heard, too.

However, that doesn't mean that the words "knot" and "nautical" are
related; it's merely a coincidence that they have the same vowel sound
for people with the cot-caught merger *and* that they (can) occur in
the same context.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>