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Steve:

I don't have any argument with what you are saying either. I was trying
to determine whether I pronounce "horse" differently from "hoarse." I
still think I detect a subtle distinction, but I can agree it is not
important that I attempt to differentiate between the two in their spelling.

Paige

Steve Bett wrote:

>Paige, dshep, and others,
>
>I think you are on the wrong track here.
>We are searching for a broad transcription that would not
>distinguish near rimes. /hors/ for both horse and hoarse is
>fine. We let the context distinguish which meaning to be associated
>with the string of sound-signs.
>
>I have had linguists tell me that they do not pronounce
>*ale and *ail the same way. Therefore a writing system that
>reduced both the /eIl/ would distort their ideolect.
>
>So what? All we are trying to do is to get close enough to communicate.
>
>Without a context a native speaker would associate /peIl/ with pale
>and pail. The same would happen if the words were spoken.
>
>Yes there are people who change /O/ to /A/ in many words. Some
>dialects do not even contain /O/. This is a problem if you are an
>advocate of spell as you speak.
>
>I think the goal is (wide) communication and the optimize
>communication you will spell as the newsreader speaks rather than your
>regional dialect.
>
>--Steve
>
>
>--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I believe I distinguish "horse" from "hoarse" although it is
>>>
>>>
>subtle. The latter seems to have a hint of a schwa sound after the
>initial vowel to me.
>
>
>>Yes, I too think I hear a glide to a schwa-like sound in words of
>>
>>
>that category, making them a little bit longer. Other contrasting
>pairs are
>
>
>
>>storm/store, corn/core, morning/mourning, lord/lore, war/wore,
>>for/four(fore), born/borne, nor/ignore, dork/door, cork/court,
>>short/shore, etc.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>Also, I am curious. If one has merged the sound "awe" out of
>>>
>>>
>one's idiolect, what does one say for the word "awe"? Ah? the "on"
>sound by itself. So one would say, for example: "When the angels
>appeared, the shepherds were filled with ah." Does anyone really say
>this? If I heard someone say this, I doubt I would understand their
>meaning.
>
>
>
>>>Paige
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Good point.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>P.S. do those who have merged "cot" and "caught" think that
>>>
>>>
>"nautical" refers to the "knots" that sailors have to know how to tie?
>
>
>
>>dshep
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Steve

It is good to try and synchronize our pronunciation within the limits
of a Dictionary Key.
Unfortunately, most Dictionary Keys do not explicitly include the
Vowel R-Sounds, preferring instead to use Diagraphs. I find that
somewhat misleading. American Dictionaries will often include the
Broad A or Ah, but then only provide examples that end in R.
Car, Star, Argyle, etc.
I also agree that we need to distinguish the Schwa, thru the proper
use of Ado.
In any case, the current Shavian Vowel letters are pretty complete.
I would like to combine the "On" and "Ah" letter or at least consider
one of the 3 suggestions made sofar to minimize Vowel confusion
between the American and British pronunciation of the Soft "o".
Otherwise we may have to wait another 50 years and see how the
inevitable evolution of the English vowels, into a Global English
makes the whole question moot.
How many people speak any of the 4 varieties of English available in
the time of Chaucer?

Personally I was hoping that we would be more Avant-Garde, and maybe
have some slight positive influence on the whole process of
preserving an understandable English.
Regards, Paul V.

P.S. I don't see how we got on to Unigraf. It doesn't have Schwa
letter or any of the R-sound Vowel Letters, and seems to meet an
entirely different requirement. Apples and Oranges are different
things. Incomparable. And as for Oranges (Shavian), Witchiepoo
said, there is not even a Rhyme for Oranges.
______________________attached______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
wrote:
> > There is no need to be any more precise with respect to speech
than
> > the dictionary key. Some people waste time trying to precisely
> > describe how people pronounce unstressed syllables. e.g., Is
there a
> > bull in table? /teIbUl/ or /teIb@l/ or is even the schwa sound
> > missing? /teIb'l/. Is there a cow in *Moscow?
>
> Good point. The unstressed schwa is an important part of speech and
should
> without question be represented in writing as a schwa,
not "hypercorrected"
> to the vowel traditional orthography represents it with, e.g.
spelling
> "jargon" as [JRgon] instead of [JRgan]. The only issue is whether
or not you
> really need to distinguish it from its stressed counterpart.
>
> > My shaw alphabet page
> > http://www.foolswisdom.com/users/sbett/shavian-short.html
> >
> > Shaw Keys: tEbal trFbal mosko prizam prizan sxfx (sDfD)
> >
> > Unigraf: tAbL trYbL mQskO prizM prizN (or priz&n) sRfe&r
(s&f&)
> > Unigraf is a mixed case, non digrafic phonetic or phonemic ASCII
entry
> > notation.

Hi Dr. Shep
Have you finished with your penance? We miss the cheery insouciance
with which you attack our flashes of insight into the commonplace
pronunciation of English. The commonplace of which you seem to have no
acquaintenceship with, whatsoever.
It reminds me of Merry Andrew among the Gypsies.
But still the more the Merrier.
Fond regards, Paul V.
P.S. Your friend is correct, among the older generation, the
pronunciation "a-bOt" was common in some areas of Canada.
The Long O sound was little shorter than normal. Enough to distinguish
it from " a boat ".
I have not ever heard "a-bMt"
__________________attached_____________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@...> wrote:
> This was both silly of me and rude to express myself in this
> manner. I apologize. The things one says when in a hurry,
> but that is no excuse.

Hi Hugh
We seem to go thru odd periods, where no one is posting anything of
significance. And while I accept that everyone has a life and possibly
even some other interest, I think we need to move the Shavian Alphabet
more to the forefront. I was looking over some of the earlier posts
on the old forum, and I was comparing the success of the Cherokee
Syllabary and the Shavian Alphabet.
There was an article on the development of the Cherokee Syllabary by
Sequoyah. See below.
But nowadays,
the Cherokee (Tsalagee) in fact have dwindled down to about 10,000
speakers.
The Overhill dialect is still spoken in northeastern Oklahoma.
And the Syllabary has fallen into disuse, due to the ease which there
language could be adapted to the regular Roman Alphabet. Especially
after the Cherokee (Tsalagee) became acculturated to English.
I think the key lesson is that a written Language has to be used in
order to evolve.

sO, F am suJestiN HAt pIpal pOst trAnslitDEtad Rtakalz v
kDent intarest in H /SAvIan Alfabet. lets get gOiN.
plIz let mI nO if F mEd enI speliN XDz
ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
___________________attached_________________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
/cXOkI rFtiN, iz H kriESan v /sakwqjy, wun v H grEt nEmz in H histarI
v H /amXikan /indIan. kynvinst HAt H kI tM H wFt mAn's pQD lE in hiz
pazeSan v a ritan lANgweJ, hI set abQt briNiN His sIkrat tM hiz On
pIpl. in 1821, yftD twelv jCz v wxk, hI pradVst a silAbari v 86
kXAktxz, reprazentiN evrI sQnd in H /cXOkI lANgweJ. H sistam woz
kwiklI mastxd bF TQzandz v /cXOkIz n wiTin TrI jCz a nMzpEpD bagAn t bI
publiSd, n a konstitMSan fP H /cXOkI /nESan wuz drYn up in H /cXOkI
laNgweJ.

"/sakwqjy bPOd meni v hiz kAraktxz frum /iNgliS, but sins hI AkSUalI
nIHD spOk nP red /iNgliS, H letDz reprazent difDant sQndz in H tM
lANgweJaz. H letD "D", fP igzampl, iz pranQnst "A", wFl "H" iz
pranQnst "ni", "W" iz pranQnst "lA", n "Z" iz pranQnst "no". but
H /sakwqjy silAbari hAz ramEnd in Vs tM H preszant dE, wiH nO
mydifikESanz kynsidxd nesasXi in 150 jCz.
HAt an unletxd huntD n kraftsman kUd kymplIt a tysk nQ undDtEkan Onli
bF hFli trEnd liNgwists must SDlI rAnk Az wun v H mOst impresiv
intalekcMal fIts acIvd bF a siNgal mAn."

writan bF /keneT /katsnD

helO grMp,

R HX inI rIstriktons on VsiN H SYsAns numbD 2 font.
H folOiN websFt ses HAt it is frI.

http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/shavian.html

F wUd lFk tM konvxt His font intM a pOstskript n grof
font t Vz in mF wrFtiNs. F wUd YlsO lFk tM konvxt H
trMtFp font intM a bitmAp font tM Vz wiHin a frIwX hobI
gEm F Am krIFtiN.

Summary: Are there any restrictions on using
or converting the ShawSans Number 2 font
into a postscript type 1 or a bitmap font.?.

regRds,
brFAn AlJxI
http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/

I am the creator of Shaw Sans No. 2.

Feel free to use it or modify it as you wish.

--Phillip Driscoll


----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Algeri
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: [shawalphabet] ShawSansNo2 Usage


Summary: Are there any restrictions on using
or converting the ShawSans Number 2 font
into a postscript type 1 or a bitmap font.?.

regRds,
brFAn AlJxI
http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/

helO grMp,

His iz a kyntravDSal pIs v nVz, sO fIal frI t skip
it if V fFnd it tM grAfik. it iz abQt gOiN undD H nFf t Avqd getiN
/Ec. /F. /vI.

in an afliktad /AfrkAn nESun, /swyzIlAnd mEalz -- yuN n Old-- krQd
kliniks fP sCkumsiSuns AftD rapPts spred HAt H prasIdD kAn radMs H
spred v
H /E. /F. /dI. /es. vFrus.

nV studIz suJest HAt sCkumsizd men R 60 pDsent t 75 pDsent les
lFklI t kyntrAct H vFrus HAt kYzaz /E.

/F. /dI. /es. TrM seksVal kyntAkt.
in /swyzIlAnd, a dIplI trAdiSunal nESun TAt hAZ H wDaldz hFest rEt
v seksValI trAnsmitad /Ec. /F. /vI. infekSun pDhAps bikuz it hAz wun
v H wDaldz lOest rEts v sCkumsiSun. Hiz iz prYmptiN a medakel
revalMSun.

in JAnVXI, 2006, wen a hAlT AdvakAsI grMp AdvDtFzd a wun dE frI
sCkumsiSun klinik, 160 men stAmpIdad TrM H /mbAbAne prFvet kliniks
hAlwEz, despDet t get wun v H avElAbal upqntments.

bF /lPI /gMDiN
/ SikQgO /tribVn fPan kPasyndent
publiSd Epr il 4, 2006
frum /mbAbAne, /swyzIlAnd

______________atAct_____________________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Paul wrote:
>
> it iz tFm Hat mP weitan matCIal is prOvFdad.

> plIz let mI nO if V nOtis enI mistEks.

HEnk V filip (Phillip)!

bIlO is a link t H pOstskript n grof fonts wiH instYl
instrakSons t Vz wiH H win32 grof pAkAJ. H fonts
SUd YlsO wxk on a Vniks sistem.

http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/files/fonts/ShawUnxFont.zip

regRds,
brFAn AlJxI
http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/

helO grMp

F hAv stRted t translitxEt a Old publik dOmEn bUk.
TX R seventI tM SPt cAptDs. F SUld hAv it komplIted
bF Tis tFm nekst jC. H fxst cAptD is avElabl At:

http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/files/pdf/FaerQuen.pdf

F wil pOst anaHD mesAJ hC wen H bUk is kompleted.

regRds,
/brFAn /AlJxI
http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/

hF brFan
F prasMm H bUk iz /edmund /spensx'z /fXI /kwIn
F hOp V R VziN mydDn prOnunsIESun.
it wUd lUk vXI fE. nFs FdEa.
ragRdz, /pYl /vI.
pI. es. wen F klik yn H liNk, F Am danFd Akses.
________________atAct________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Algeri" <bkalgeri@...>
wrote:
> F hAv stRted t translitxEt a Old publik dOmEn bUk.
> TX R seventI tM SPt cAptDs. F SUld hAv it komplIted
> bF Tis tFm nekst jC. H fxst cAptD is avElabl At:
>
> http://www.brightstar.curvedspaces.com/files/pdf/FaerQuen.pdf
>
> F wil pOst anaHD mesAJ hC wen H bUk is kompleted.