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From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2006-11-28 17:56:49 #
Subject: Re: Pygmalion in Shaw?

Toggle Shavian
Hi Yayah
George Bernard Shaw was a very great men, but currently his point of
view is a little bit out of favour. He was a moderate or Fabian
Socialist and he believed in practical moderate solutions.
He hated extremists and invariably made fun of them in his plays.
He sometimes, like Mark Twain, made of fun of them by taking on
their voice and exaggerating their logical arguments beyond the
point of sanity.
You never knew if he was pulling your leg.

I'd really like to see his work revived. But how many people go to
plays nowadays. It is rare to even see them on TV.
Still, it would be nice to produce a lightly edited version of
his play, Pygmalion converted to Novel format.
Pygmalion, is pretty accessible, and it does talk about the issue of
learning Phonetics, if only to speak
clearly/understandably/respectfully.
It made a pretty good musical, "My Fair(Desirable) Lady".
Let re-cycle a little Shavian, for the benefit of the Alphabet.
Regards, Paul V.

P.S. It is amazing to think that G.B. Shaw in his day was considered
just as outrageous as Borat from Kazhakistan, is in our own
generation.
___________________________attached____________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Yayah
> I'd like to produce a slightly edited version of
> Pygmalion ( Pig->Male->Young ) = Shoat? :)
> But, it should be converted into a Novel format,
> as well as being in Shavian script.
>
> We can keep the speeches the same.
> Most people just don't like to read something in
> the form of a Play.
> We should put it together as a group.
> Each of us will take a voice. I could be the Moderator.
> The Guy in the background, making wry comments.
> Philip could be Henry Higgins.
> Star could be Liza and Hugh could Henry's over practical colleague.
> There is a part for Liza's father.
> Anybody else game?
> It would take a bit of time but it would be fun.
> Regards, Paul V.
> ______________________attached_____________________________
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@> wrote:
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Tim Rice wrote:
> > >
> > > Which publisher holds the rights to Pygmalon by Bernard Shaw?
> > I think it would be well, fitting to transliterate it into the
> > Shavian alphabet.
> >
> > Yes, Tim, Pygmalion would be fitting - but even more so if
Shavian
> > had experienced such a wonderful transformation! ;-)
> >
> > What about any of GBS' other works, eg Man & Superman? Mrs
> Warren's
> > Profession? Arms and the Man? Candida? The Millionairess? Do
> you
> > think Pygmalion is more especially deserving than any of these?
> You
> > can find a list of GBS' plays, with links to articles on many of
> the
> > more important, on Wikipedia at:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw#Drama
> >
> > In the US at least (and probably in Australia, since the signing
> away
> > of Australia's independence in creative endeavours by our sorry
> > excuse for a Prime Minister) Pygmalion is no longer in
copyright,
> and
> > you can download the etext for free at Project Gutenberg:
> > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3825
> >
> > Regards,
> > Yahya
> >
>

From: John Burrows <burrows@...>
Date: 2006-11-29 16:37:26 #
Subject: Re. Pygmalion in Shaw?

Toggle Shavian
On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:02 PM, shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>> and
>>
>>> you can download the etext for free at Project Gutenberg:
>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3825
>>>
>
Just done so. 34000 words in all. 4500 unique words.
It follows my printed text closely.
Format is plain text 7-bit ASCII with hard returns.
Layout is mixed, novel and playscript.
Will convert to simple text flow for segmentation, before translating.
Going to require heavy use of namer dot for speaking parts.
Will complete in plain text UTF-8.
John

From: "tim_rice09" <tim_rice09@...>
Date: 2006-12-02 16:46:57 #
Subject: Phonetic Braille for English

Toggle Shavian
Does such thing as a phonetic braille for English exist?
If there isn't one, than using the easiest Braille cells to represent
the most common sounds of English would work quite nicely.

From: "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@...>
Date: 2006-12-02 17:29:27 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Phonetic Braille for English

Toggle Shavian
On 12/2/06, tim_rice09 <tim_rice09@...> wrote:
> Does such thing as a phonetic braille for English exist?

I haven't heard of such.

> If there isn't one, than using the easiest Braille cells to represent
> the most common sounds of English would work quite nicely.

That does sound like a good idea.

I had, at one point, tried to make a mapping of Shaw Alphabet letters
to braille, using the ordering principle inherent in the Shaw
Alphabet. Unfortunately, my browser ate the post just before I was
going to send it and I haven't put in the effort to re-create it
since.

The mapping I used mimicked one "alphabetical" order of the Shaw
Alphabet with a commonly-used order of braille cells; in this respect,
the braille was about as good as the usual arrangement, which also
maps letters of the Roman alphabet to braille cells in a certain
pattern in order, without any attention to the complexity of a given
cell.

But what you suggested would also be a good idea.

Is there a list somewhere of the phonemes in English by order of use?
I'm sure it's not hard to find lists of *letters* by order, but for a
phonemic representation, such as mapping of the Shaw Alphabet to
braille, one would need a list of *phonemes* by order before you know
which ones are the most common.

...and one of these days, I'll have to type up my proposal for a
braille version of the Shaw Alphabet.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2006-12-04 19:26:03 #
Subject: Re: Re. Pygmalion in Shaw?

Toggle Shavian
Hi John
I downloaded it as well.
Upon looking at the text,
I think we need to consider how to format the story.
The Form of the story is a first a Preface or Commentary
on the Phonetics of English, and then a description of some
of the famous Linguists
of his time. There is also a Paean on the success of this play
even though it is full of idaes and their explanations.

Secondly, the Play itself in 3 Acts or parts. Simply dialog and
stage directions.

And thirdly there is an Afterword which
resolves the conflict of the story
and spins out the resolution to the story. Surprisingly,
the resolution in GBS mind is so far away from
modern romantic conventions, that most readers will consider
this end of story to be some what of a letdown.
It is kind of like the author waking up, and say it was
all a dream and the class revolution implicit in the story
did not occur. The musical adaption, "My fair Lady" was totally
unfaithful to GB Shaw's actual ending. I suspect the play evolved
somewhat away from GBS original concept in the process of being
brought to the stage. Maybe the Director and Leading actress
managed to spin the play towards our more modern understanding.

The Afterward also contains a final oblique reference to Galatea,
from the original Greek myth of Pygmalionm to support the rather
strange ending GBS comes up with in his afterward.

How do we want to present all this material to the novice
Shavian reader?

As for the Preface, while it does indicate that the hero
of the play,
Henry Higgins was modeled after Henry Sweet of Oxford,
there is little else of interest.
I would like the story to come first, and the exposition
of the nuts and bolts or rather the inspiration behind
the play, to be relegated to an appendix.

As for the remaining 4 parts of the story, I would like to flesh
them out to the minimal level needed to read this story,
simply as a story, in chronological order.
I am certain that this is possible, without a major
re-write. People convert stories into screen-plays all the
time. It should be possible to reverse the process.

Regards, Paul v.
____________________attached_______________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, John Burrows <burrows@...>
wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:02 PM, shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> >>> you can download the etext for free at Project Gutenberg:
> >>> http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3825
> >>>
> >
> Just done so. 34000 words in all. 4500 unique words.
> It follows my printed text closely.
> Format is plain text 7-bit ASCII with hard returns.
> Layout is mixed, novel and playscript.
> Will convert to simple text flow for segmentation, before
translating.
> Going to require heavy use of namer dot for speaking parts.
> Will complete in plain text UTF-8.
> John
>

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2006-12-11 03:20:58 #
Subject: Re: Pygmalion in Shaw? The Preface?

Toggle Shavian
Hi John
Here is the preface. I attached it below. Please examine it.
I structured it a little and added line numbers.
I noted some incredible run-on sentences, but all told it does give
some insight into the main character of Henry Higgins, and
G.B.Shaw's intent to show his namesake, Henry Sweet
in a stronger more positive light.
He patches the crackpot and makes it a magical instrument, to
convert a barbarian into something more than
just a model of refined Lady.

I examined the first 41 statements
I eliminated the last few lines of the Preface for later perusal.
How shall it be presented. Footnotes, perhaps. Or inserted piecemeal
into the story.
Regards, Paul v.
_______________attached__________________
PREFACE TO PYGMALION.

1. (About) a Professor of Phonetics.

2. As will be seen later on, Pygmalion needs, not a preface,
but a sequel (Conclusion?),
which I have supplied in its due place. (Afterword)
3. The English have no respect for their language, and will not
teach their own children to speak it.
4. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach
himself what it sounds like.
5. It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth
without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.
6. German and Spanish (at least) are accessible to foreigners:
7. English is not accessible even to Englishmen.
8. The reformer England needs today is an energetic phonetic
enthusiast: that is why I have made such a one the hero
of this soon to be popular play.
9. There have been heroes of that kind crying in the wilderness for
many years past.
10. When I became interested in the subject towards the end of
the eighteen-seventies, Melville Bell was dead; but Alexander J.
Ellis was still a living patriarch, with an impressive head
always covered by a velvet skull cap, for which he would
apologize to public meetings in a very courtly manner.
11. He and Tito Pagliardini, another phonetic veteran,
were men whom it was impossible to dislike.
12. Henry Sweet, then a young man, lacked their sweetness of
character: he was about as conciliatory to conventional mortals
as Ibsen or Samuel Butler.
13. His great ability as a phonetician (he was, I think, the best of
them all at his job) would have entitled him to high official
recognition, and perhaps enabled him to popularize his subject, but
for his Satanic contempt for all academic dignitaries and persons in
general who thought more of Greek than of phonetics.
14. Once, in the days when the Imperial Institute rose in South
Kensington, and Joseph Chamberlain was booming the Empire, I induced
the editor of a leading monthly review to commission an article from
Sweet on the imperial importance of his subject.
15. When it arrived, it contained nothing but a savagely derisive
attack on a professor of language and literature whose chair Sweet
regarded as proper to a phonetic expert only.
16. The article, being libelous, had to be returned as impossible
to be published; and I had to renounce my dream of dragging its
author into the limelight.
17. When I met him (Henry Sweet) afterwards, for the first time for
many years, I found to my astonishment that he, who had been a quite
tolerably presentable young man, had actually managed by sheer scorn
to alter his personal appearance until he had become a sort of
walking repudiation of Oxford and all its traditions.
18. It must have been largely in his own despite that he was
squeezed into something called a Readership of phonetics there.
19. The future of phonetics rests probably with his pupils, who all
swore by him; but nothing could bring the man himself into any sort
of compliance with the university, to which he nevertheless clung by
divine right in an intensely Oxonian way.
20. I daresay his papers, if he has left any, include some satires
that may be published without too destructive results fifty years
hence.
21. He was, I believe, not inthe least an ill-natured man: very much
the opposite, I should say; but he would not suffer fools gladly.
22. Those who knew him will recognize in my third act the allusion to
the patent Shorthand in which he used to write postcards, and
which may be acquired from a four and six-penny manual published
by the Clarendon Press.
23. The postcards which Mrs. Higgins describes are such as I have
received from Sweet.
24. I would decipher a sound which a cockney would represent by zerr,
and a Frenchman by seu, and then write demanding with some heat what
on earth it meant.
25. (Henry) Sweet, with boundless contempt for my stupidity,
would reply that it not only meant but obviously was the word
Result, as no other Word containing that sound, and capable of
making sense with the context, existed in any language spoken on
earth.
26. That less expert mortals should require fuller indications
was beyond Sweet's patience.
27. Therefore, though the whole point of his "Current Shorthand"
is that it can express every sound in the language perfectly,
vowels as well as consonants, and that your hand has to make no
stroke except the easy and current ones with which you
write m, n, and u, l, p, and q, scribbling them at whatever angle
comes easiest to you.
28. His unfortunate determination to make this remarkable and quite
legible script serve also as a Shorthand reduced it in his own
practice to the most inscrutable of cryptograms.
29. His true objective was the provision of a full, accurate,
legible script for our noble but ill-dressed language; but he was
led past that by his contempt for the popular Pitman system of
Shorthand, which he called the Pitfall system.
30. The triumph of Pitman was a triumph of business
organization: there was a weekly paper to persuade you to learn
Pitman: there were cheap textbooks and exercise books and
transcripts of speeches for you to copy, and schools where
experienced teachers coached you up to the necessary proficiency.
31. (Henry) Sweet could not organize his market in that fashion.
32. He might as well have been the Sybil (Delphi Oracle) who tore up
the leaves of prophecy that nobody would attend to.
33. The four and six-penny manual, mostly in
his lithographed handwriting, that was never vulgarly advertized,
may perhaps some day be taken up by a syndicate and pushed upon
the public as The Times pushed the Encyclopaedia Britannica; but
until then it will certainly not prevail against Pitman.
34. I have bought three copies of it during my lifetime; and I am
informed by the publishers that its cloistered existence is still a
steady and healthy one.
35. I actually learned the system two several times;
and yet the shorthand in which I am writing these lines is
Pitman's.
36. And the reason is, that my secretary cannot transcribe
Sweet, having been perforce taught in the schools of Pitman.
37. Therefore, Sweet railed at Pitman as vainly as Thersites railed
at Ajax: his raillery, however it may have eased his soul, gave
no popular vogue to Current Shorthand.
38. Pygmalion's (Henry) Higgins is not a portrait of Sweet, to whom
the adventure of Eliza Doolittle would have been impossible; still,
as will be seen, there are touches of Sweet in the play.
39. With Higgins's physique and temperament Sweet might have set the
Thames on fire.
40. As it was, he impressed himself professionally on Europe to an
extent that made his comparative personal obscurity, and the failure
of Oxford to do justice to his eminence, a puzzle to foreign
specialists in his subject.
41. I do not blame Oxford, because I think Oxford is quite
right in demanding a certain social amenity from its nurslings
(heaven knows it is not exorbitant in its requirements); for
although I well know how hard it is for a man of genius with a
seriously underrated subject to maintain serene and kindly
relations with the men who underrate it, and who keep all the
best places for less important subjects which they profess
without originality and sometimes without much capacity for them,
still, if he overwhelms them with wrath and disdain, he cannot
expect them to heap honors on him.
________________________________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John
> I downloaded it as well.
> Upon looking at the text,
> I think we need to consider how to format the story.
> The Form of the story is a first a Preface or Commentary
> on the Phonetics of English, and then a description of some
> of the famous Linguists
> of his time. There is also a Paean on the success of this play
> even though it is full of idaes and their explanations.

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2006-12-25 06:56:24 #
Subject: Welcome New Members

Toggle Shavian
Welcome to the Shavian Alphabet Forum.
> > Unfortunately, lately our discussion on the refinement of the
> > Shavian Alphabet has lapsed.
> > However, we still do teach the Shavian Alphabet to one and
> > all. I can provide a Subset of the Shavian Alphabet appropriate
> > to any English speaker with an American accent.
> > We also have members much more familar with Standard British
> > pronunciation
> > and also the Oxford RP English pronunciation.
> >
> > In any case, feel free to express yourself in either the Shavian
> > Alphabet or the more traditional Roman Alphabet.
>
> Roman numbers are almost obsolete, but I expect that the Roman
> Alphabet will still be around for a little while longer, even tho
> it is
> singularly
> unsuited for writing English.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Please let me know if you need instructions on how to use
the Rich Text Editor in Yahoo groups to embed Shavian letters into
your Forum postings. I can provide detailed instructions.
________________________________attached_____________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Circ
>
> While in a general sense the basics of the Shavian Alphabet have
been
> agreed on, there is still a lot of work to done in writing down
all
> the details and writing up a full blown Teaching Guide. That
> information is spread through over 4000 messages in the site
archive
> and even more so in the previous site archive under the original
> Shavian Yahoo group. A good portal to both of the Yahoo forums and
> some other useful Shavian Links can be found at
> www.shavian.org.
> _____________________attached____________________________________
> In no sense is the Shavian Alphabet a strictly British product.
>
> Even though the Shavian Alphabet was inspired and nourished by the
> efforts and bequests of George Bernard Shaw and his friends, in no
> sense did he take a proprietary interest. It was a gift to the
> English speaking world.
>
> I really doubt G.B. Shaw wanted the alphabet just to get his name
> into the history books. I think he would have been just as happy,
if
> no one ever knew how Shavian came into being.
>
> He like to help people become educated and I think any changes to
the
> Shaw Alphabet, that would make it a better vehicle for writing
> English, would have been welcomed by him.
> The fact that it was designed to allow both Rhotic and non-Rhotic
> speakers to write English phonemically and with more or less the
same
> spelling, strongly indicates that he wanted an Alphabet that would
> work with both British and American pronunciations of English.
>
> George Bernard Shaw and the History of the Shavian Alphabet is not
a
> mental strait-jacket. It does not prevent us from making
evolutionary
> changes, to make the Alphabet work better.
>
> So as for the future development of Shavian, this should be left
open
> to possibilities, excluding only radical changes that might
renders
> previous published works useless. We want the alphabet to be
> developed by usage, not by 'fiat'
> Ideally, the ordinary user of the Shaw Alphabet will not even
notice
> any changes that do occur, because they will happen so
> gradually.
>
> Albert

From: "=?UTF-8?Q?An=C4=81g=C4=81rika_Adin?=" <5skandhas@...>
Date: 2006-12-25 17:55:18 #
Subject: Hellenic 1 - Shavian 0

Toggle Shavian
[ Attachment content not displayed ]

From: "Ph.D." <phil@...>
Date: 2006-12-25 18:10:47 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Hellenic 1 - Shavian 0

Toggle Shavian
Anāgārika Adin skribis:
>
> I've downloaded the Shavian fonts to my fonts
> directory on my PC running Windows98 and the
> only result is that I now have Greek(!) letters where
> Roman letters used to be -- however, no Shavian
> letters are to be seen.
>
> How did I get it wrong?


Did you install the fonts on your PC using the Fonts
program in Control Panel? If not, move the fonts
out of the fonts directory, perhaps to C:\ . Then go
to Control Panel -> Fonts. On the menu bar, select
File, then Install New Font. Browse to where the
Shaw fonts are and install them.

--Ph. D.

From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2006-12-26 00:33:20 #
Subject: Re: Hellenic 1 - Shavian 0

Toggle Shavian
Hi Adin
Interesting quote below, I am more familar with the one
from the Bible which expands on the same idea.

Who is wise?
He who learns from all people,
as it is said: 'From all those who taught me I gained
understanding' (Psalms 119:99).
Who is strong?
He who conquers his evil impulses,
as is said: 'Better is one slow to anger than a strong man,
and one who rules over his spirit than a conqueror of a city'
(Proverbs 16:32).
Who is rich?
He who is satisfied with his lot in life.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Keep in touch.
_____________________________attached_____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Anāgārika Adin"
<5skandhas@...> wrote:
> I've downloaded the Shavian fonts to my fonts directory on my PC
running
> Windows98 and the only result is that I now have Greek(!) letters
where
> Roman letters used to be -- however, no Shavian letters are to be
seen.
>
> How did I get it wrong?
> - - - - - - - - - -
> One can conquer thousands of men,
> but one has conquered nothing
> unless one has conquered oneself.