Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Hi /daSep
Thanks for your enlightenment.
While many people have tried to convince me that many strange and
catastophic events in the last 20 years are the result of alien
intervention, such as the appearance of smaller faster model of
George Bush. (Surely evolution cannot work so fast), this is the
first time I have heard of them giving us something useful.
Given our perverse nature, it is very hard to get us a take some
thing useful, even so mundane an item as better mousetrap.
So the miracle is in the marketing, in persuading the huddled masses
to ignore Uncle Joe and try something new.
Illegal Aliens are usually out of luck. Hardly convincing, what.
Thank G-d, Shavian Alphabet was the inspiration of a bonifide if
somewhat eccentric Human being.
Regards, Paul V.
_____________________attached__________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
> Forgive the repetition; i am simply trying
> to recall the proper way to manage postings.
>
> This will be a test:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> paul vandenbrink would have us believe
> that velcro is a Swiss invention (or
> discovery). Whereas... <switch>
> His iz untrM!
>
>
> velkrO (And uHD Vsfal inavESanz),
>
> woz a gift frum grEtfal ilIgal Elianz
>
> frum QtD spEs; grEtfal ta bI alQd
>
> ta liv on His plAnat undD Ha wocfal
>
> F ov "men in blAk", a sMpD-sIkrat
>
> guvDnmental EJansi. Yl is ravWld
>
> in a mMvi ov Ha sEm nEm.

Hi Dashep
Once Shavian becomes more common, I am certain you will see better
organized Keyboards developed with a few more letter Keys.
Don't blame Shavian for Keyboard Mapping problems based on on very
old Roman Alphabet Based Keyboards.
Regards, Paul V.
__________________________attached__________________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- dshep submitted:
>
> A posting full of strange symbols replacing
> punctuation marks. This (I hope) is a correction.
>
> ..................................................................

>
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> > --- Paige Gabhart wrote:
> >
> > ... If one sets out to design a wholly new
> > alphabet, it would hardly make sense to make
> > it more difficult and time consuming to write
> > than the existing alphabet.
>
> I really don't feel an additional key-stroke per
> common word, a mere mere finger-flick, is more
> difficult or time consuming --- not on any scale
> worth mentioning; I would rather preserve phonemic
> consistency and clarity of presentation. To me this
> is simpler. The less to learn and remember, the
> better. I of course fully understand that all
> members of this group have already learned
> Shavian as it is,and would consider the above
> recommendation unnecessary, but I am thinking
> of the day when many more might be induced to
> consider the possibility of using an alternative
> alphabet, and to this end, I submit, the chances
> of acceptance are improved if the alphabet in
> question is honed to the greatest possible degree
> of self-evident order, reason, and beauty. Another
> member of this group, interested in spelling reform,
> has pointed out that practically all "experts" in
> the field regard spelling reform, in whatever form,
> as absurd and a waste of time. I fear that this is
> true, about the opinions of experts, that is. Only
> something really convincing, free of objection,
> simple and appealing, attractive and easy to learn
> and use, has any chance of success.
>
> > Read spelled it "Quikscript," (presumably as an
> > acknowledgement that the "c" was superfluous
> > in TO) not "Quickscript" nor "Kwikskrip."
>
> Quikscript, thank you, I shall try to be more careful
> in future. Curious though that if /c/ was thought
> superfluous (or redundant), why not /q/?
>
> > Here is part of what Read had to say about spelling:
> >
> > It is popularly assumed that a phonetic alphabet
> > is useless unless every spelling is a precise
> > representationof speech, without reservations
> > or conveniences. Whose speech, then, is to be
> > so precisely represented?...
>
> I am not familiar with the Quikscript manual, a
> circumstance I should correct, but I am surprised
> that Read would here imply that his alphabet was
> to be classed as a phonetic rather than a phonemic
> one, with the conclusion that the use of abbreviations
> would therefore prevent disputes. This would be a
> correct observation if Shavian were indeed phonetic.
> Phonemic representation however, which I have always
> thought to be the principle that Shavian adhered to,
> allows without problm a considerable spread in
> pronunciation, as found in the distinction between
> British and American /o/ in "go", and /ou/ in "bought",
> where Shavian \O\ respectively \Y\ can easily satisfy
> either speech-form, as there is no confusion ---
> everyone substitutes their own pronunciation.
> This ought to apply to the short-o \o\ as well.
>
> > Clearly, (shorthand) is in a different class from
> > alphabets intended for normal writing and general
> > usage as a full representation of alanguage such as
> > Shavian or Quikscript are. But, I agree, that Quikscript
> > letters, while not having the stark beauty of Shavian,
> > are simpler and easier to write, which, certainly,
> > cannot be a bad thing for any alphabet.
>
> This is the question, Is Shavian intended entirely for
> efficiency ---a shorthand in other words --- or is it
> a truly comprehensive alternative writing system,
> balancing efficiency against other factors? I thought the
> latter.
>
> > A "th" symbol standing in place of "the" is not use of a
> > a single letter "devoid of phonemic content" since the
> > symbol represents an English phoneme. It just omits
> > the vowel content, which must be inferred.
>
> But it is a single letter in Shavian, where the abbreviation
> occurs. And to infer the existence of sounds is to depart
> from the spirit of a phonemic alphabet, does it not?
>
> > We are therefore concerned with the function of letters
> > in building uniquely shaped outlines ...
> > All the practised reader requires or values is a well
> > known graph. Use will make any graph familiar, any
> > spelling readable; but the "getting used to" words is
> > eased by systematic spelling. /Quikscript Manual/, p. 5.
>
> This is all perfectly sensible, except that Read here
> appears to me to be undercutting the very reason for
> promoting an alternative alphabet at all. After all, we
> are at present thoroughly "familiar" with our "well-
> known" graphs, and got used to them long ago.
>
> > Surely, you are not suggesting that no abbreviations
> > should be used in "considered" writing, whatever that is.
> >
> > Paige
>
> I think the meaning there is obvious enough.
>
> > Do you write "Mister" or "Mr," "Doctor" or "Dr."? Do
> > eitherof those examples strike you as equivalent to the
> > barbarityof "C U soon"? Perhaps, the difference is
> > familiarity, as Read said.
>
> Ha -- got me there. A clear oversight on my part -- even
> I like those abbreviations, and there is no good reason not
> to use them. However, there is the restriction that these
> always occur together with personal names, not usually
> otherwise, as in "This is Mr Tom Smith Jr, our junior partner".
> Am I missing any others?
>
> regards again,
> dshep
>

Using more Unicode would be a great idea. I'm quite tired of reading
posts in Shavian like some contorted form of X-Sampa.
P.S. How is it that I can read the Unicode on my E-mail and it appears
as Icelandic keyboard malfunction on this groups reading pane?

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan Lamoreaux <ethanl@...> wrote:
>
> James Vipond wrote:
> > The Shavian part of your message displays all right in Apple
> > Mail.app, unless someone else tries to quote it, as I am doing.
> >
> > James Vipond
> > jvipond@...
> >
> You need to respond using html email if you wish to retain the original
> fonts, and thus the correct letter forms. Since I don't have a Mac,
I'm
> not familiar with Mail.app, but I assume it can write html since it
> displays it.
>
> ð`¿ ð`'ð`©ð`¯ ð`·ð`¤ð`¢ð`±ð`Ÿ ð`¿ð`Ÿ
ð`¿ð`¯ð`¦ð`'ð`´ð`›, ð``ð`µ! <-- Unicode Shavian
>
> Unicode works even in plain text, as long as your operating system is
> configured correctly, and you have a unicode Shavian font installed.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
> He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt
thou trust --Psalm 91:4a
>

whether report:

the reign in speign falls meignli on the pleign...

paul vandenbrink observed:


> Re: Shavian Spelling Conventions

> Hi Dashep
> Once Shavian becomes more common, I am certain you will see better
> organized Keyboards developed with a few more letter Keys.
> Don't blame Shavian for Keyboard Mapping problems based on on very
> old Roman Alphabet Based Keyboards.
> Regards, Paul V.
> __________________________attached__________________________________

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@...> wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- dshep submitted:
>
> A posting full of strange symbols replacing
> punctuation marks. This (I hope) is a correction.

..................................................................

Forgive the repetition; i am simply tryingÂ
to recall the proper way to manage postings.

..................................................................

His iz untrM! Â

..................................................................


I do not know why these strange /Â/s keep appearing in the Yahoo
Group Page.
(they do not occur in the e-mails sent to members). The only unusual
thing I do is
double-space between Shavian words. Sometimes this unintended letter
appears
as a hollow rectangle.

mystified,
dshep

paul v responds:
.............................

Thanks for your enlightenment.

While many people have tried to convince me that
many strange and catastophic events in the last 20
years are the result of alien intervention,

wUd V mIn prezadentcal advFzD
/kyrl /rOv?

such as the appearance of (a) smaller faster model
of George Bush. (Surely evolution cannot work so fast),

must bI Ha rasult ov tYlk-rEdiO.

this is the first time I have heard of them giving us
something useful.

kampVtDz?

Given our perverse nature, it is very hard to get us a
take some thing useful, even so mundane an item as
a better mousetrap. So the miracle is in the marketing,
in persuading the huddled masses to ignore Uncle Joe
and try something new. Illegal Aliens are usually out of
luck. Hardly convincing, what. Thank G-d, Shavian
Alphabet was the inspiration of a bonifide if somewhat
eccentric Human being.
Regards, Paul V.

F sapOz /SY woz an aksentrik --
At eni rEt meni pIpal TYt sO At
He tFm. but F balIv /SY TYt HAt
efDt SUd mEnli strFv tOwDdz Ha
dFdAktik, not bI wEstad in vEn
eksantrisati. not evriwun sY Ha
difDens.

eksantristakali,
/dSep

Ethan wrote:

You need to respond using html email if you wish to retain the
original fonts, and thus the correct letter forms. Since I don't
have a Mac, I'm not familiar with Mail.app, but I assume it can
write html since it displays it.

𐑿 𐑒𐑩𐑯 𐑷𐑤𐑢𐑱𐑟 𐑿𐑟
𐑿𐑯𐑦𐑒𐑴𐑛, 𐑑𐑵! <-- Unicode Shavian

Unicode works even in plain text, as long as your operating
system is configured correctly, and you have a unicode Shavian
font installed.

... ... ... ...

Yes, thank you. I'm embarrassed to say this is the second time
I've blundered through this process, but if one possesses a
selectively erratic memory such as mine one is obliged to repeat
mistakes.

The natural tendency I think is to at least wish to respond to
some discussion via the reply possibility provided at the Yahoo
site for this group. This does not allow however the use of
Shavian fonts, or perhaps not any other font for that matter.
Those of you skilled in these matters understand why. Nor
does the rich-text option appear to work, at least not for me.
One may type in Shavian, and see it displayed, but it does not
transmit (at least not for me). So, the only way, as you point
out (and have pointed out previously), is to send an e-mail,
copying any material one wishes to respond to, as I've done
above.

And, as James Vipond wrote:

The Shavian part of your message displays all right in Apple
Mail.app, unless someone else tries to quote it, as I am doing.

So, it will be interesting to see if this also happens to your
sentence above in Unicode Shavian. This particular passage
came as intended in the subscriber's e-mail, but is rendered in
Martian at the Group web-page, and, what I found to be
interestingly curious, refused to be copied. I could not copy
that sentence and paste it in a word-processing document.

Also, text that I have managed to get into the Group archives
sometimes, somehow, acquires extra, meaningless letters, or
hollow rectangles. These disappear when copied and pasted
into a word-processing document. I'm sure there is a simple
explanation.

ever curiouser,
dshep

dshep wrote:







F  sapOz  /SY  woz 
an  aksentrik -- 
At  eni  rEt  meni 
pIpal  TYt  sO  At  
He  tFm.  but  F 
balIv  /SY  TYt  HAt
efDt  SUd  mEnli 
strFv  tOwDdz  Ha  
dFdAktik,  not  bI 
wEstad  in  vEn  
eksantrisati.  not 
evriwun  sY  Ha  
difDens.


eksantristakali,
/dSep 










HAt FdIa in itself mE bI sumwot
eksentrik!

dshep wrote:

> F sapOz /SY woz an aksentrik --
> At eni rEt meni pIpal TYt sO At
> He tFm. but F balIv /SY TYt HAt
> efDt SUd mEnli strFv tOwDdz Ha
> dFdAktik, not bI wEstad in vEn
> eksantrisati. not evriwun sY Ha
> difDens.
>
> eksantristakali,
> /dSep

and wurdbendur replied:

> HAt FdIa in itself mE bI sumwot eksentrik!

.. .. .. .. .. .. ..

V mE wel bI rFt. bat His woz /SY'z On raAkSan
ta kritasizm rasIvd in lEtD lFf ta cyrJaz
(kamplEnts?) ov insesant didAktasizm -- HAt
iz -- dramAtik presantESanz wiH a moral, Ivan
if in a lFtD ven, az apOzd ta plEz (F sapOz)
HAt lIv kwescanz anrazolvd.

/SY yrgVd in raspons HAt TWtD SUd indId bI
dFdAktik, HAt woz its cIf rIzan ta egzist, its
dVti ta sasFati -- a vV HAt veri probabli iz
kwFt Qt ov fASan tadE.

F'v misplEst mF kopi, bat /SY'z egzAkt kwOt (on
His and uHD mAtDz) kAn bI fQnd in Ha bUk
"on lAngwiJ" (a kalekSan ov /SY'z letDz ta
vArias nVzpEpDZ).

anfASanabli,
/dSep

tim_rice09 wrote:
> Using more Unicode would be a great idea. I'm quite tired of reading
> posts in Shavian like some contorted form of X-Sampa.
> P.S. How is it that I can read the Unicode on my E-mail and it appears
> as Icelandic keyboard malfunction on this groups reading pane?
>
The reason it shows up as a mess (such as you can see in the quoted text
below) is because Yahoo's web interface still does not properly support
Unicode. The only way to avoid the mess is to use a mail client that
supports Unicode, and get your messages via email.

>> ð`¿ ð`'ð`©ð`¯ ð`·ð`¤ð`¢ð`±ð`Ÿ ð`¿ð`Ÿ
>>
> ð`¿ð`¯ð`¦ð`'ð`´ð`›, ð``ð`µ! <-- Unicode Shavian
>

--
Ethan

He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust --Psalm 91:4a