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I just wanted to say hi to you all as a new member from the Netherlands.

I joined this group as I'm interested in the Shavian alphabet for some
time now and learned it my self. I also created a version of Shavian to
be able to make notes in Dutch and as I can say I really enjoy being
able to write Shavian.

You will see me posting more in the groups the upcoming time.

As far as I know George Shaw did wanted to replace the latin alphabet,
although I don't know how serious those statements were. But Kingsley
Read didn't wanted to replace the current latin alphabet, just give
people the possibility to write quicker if they wanted.

I also found it easy to write Shavian, took me about two weeks to get
the basics and use the system in meetings for taking notes. But
remember: you already know how the language you're noting works so that
part of learning can be ignored, you only have to learn new characters
and have to learn how to properly use them.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "tim_rice09" <tim_rice09@...>
wrote:
>
> Good thing too. With some phonetic self training I was able to
> write Shavian fluently in a week. Perhaps if it took less than four
> years to learn reading and writing phonetics might be fitted in
> somehow.
> Since T.O. is mostly the writing system for English's closest
> realative (which it evolved from) and many of the conventions present
> in it were introduced by Dutch printers and French scribes a change
is
> needed.
> Besides, Shavian is better.
> did thee maeker ov this sistum rilee meen for it tù com tù this?
>

Ramses Oudt wrote:

"But Kingsley Read didn't wanted to replace the current latin alphabet,
just give
people the possibility to write quicker if they wanted."

The foregoing is not an accurate statement. Read was well aware that
TO, or as he terms it "Orthodox," would continue with us for a very long
time, even if a new and improved alphabet were to be adopted. The
Quikscript manual stated:

"But let us be realistic. No better alphabet will suddenly displace
Orthodox, its text-books, its libraries and its newspapers. If it is
ever relegated to second place, that will be done by gradual experience
of advantages not to be missed. The first advance will necessarily be
_in handwriting_. Without any substantial outlay a new script can be
tried in schools, using the old pen and much less paper. Whatever the
system chosen, teachers will need no elaborate manual, and children will
need none. But let us recognize that Orthodox remains with us and that
any new alphabet in addition to it must be of marked service to the
grown community as well as to first-year schoolchildren."

However, this does not imply that he did not see the need for Orthodox
to be gradually phased out. Note that he said "If it (Orthodox) is
ever relegated to second place..." which implies that he thought it
should be.

And on the inside of the front cover of the manual, he noted:

"Is it not time for schools to teach a much simpler script with simpler
spelling, as well as our present cumbersome way of writing?"

I believe schools still teach Roman Numerals, but no one attempts
calculation with them. A similar situation could arise with an improved
alphabet. It would be taught to school children first. Later on, after
having learned to read, they could be introduced to TO. Although with
the advent of computers, I can foresee that in the future any TO text
could be fairly easily tranliterated into the improved alphabet, and
most people probably would not want to be bothered with continuing to
learn to read an outdated script with so many difficulties.

Paige



.




>
>

Hi Hugh,

If I saw that article I either missed it or forgot about it. But
thanks for reminding me. It's good to that there are some general
approaches to Shavian Thinking that other people come up with that
are either similiar or identical independently.

Best of Regards,

Carl

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
>
>
> Remember "Cut Shavian", an almost identical 38-letter subset
brought to the
> list's attention in 2003?
>
>
>
> 1. peep
> 2. bib
> 3. tot
> 4. dead
> 5. kick
> 6. gag
> 7. fee
> 8. vow
> 9. thigh
> 10. they
> 11. so
> 12. zoo
> 13. sure
> 14. measure
> 15. church
> 16. judge
> 17. yea - yonder, piano, million
> 18. woe - suede, suite
> 19. hung - think, linger, thankyou
> 20. ha-ha
> 21. loll
> 22. roar - car, traitor, marry, fervour
> 23. mime
> 24. nun
> 25. if
> 26. eat - queasy, sillier, seemly
> 27. egg
> 28. age
> 29. ash
> 30. eye
> 31. ado - us, murmurous, among, girder, offal, utter
> 32. oak
> 33. wool
> 34. ooze - superfluous
> 35. out
> 36. oil
> 37. ah - on, psalm, hot, part, palmolive
> 38. awe - paw, wrought, core, call, hawthorn
>
>
>
> Hugh B
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of carl easton
> Sent: 26 August 2006 22:53
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: Shavian 38
>
>
>
> Hi Star,
>
>
>
> Sorry for the Confusion. I should have told you guys, that I was
making a
> sub-set of Shavian. Suitable to parallel the Deseret Alphabet,
which has 38
> Letters. However, I modified the Phoneme Assignment of the
Deseret Alphabet
> to better suit, my Utahn Dialect of the English Language. Just
like in
> Shavian; Deseret has three "ah" phonemes (ah, awe, on), and there
is only
> two in Utahn (ah and awe). Also in the Deseret Alphabet there is
no, "oil"
> phoneme. So, I reassigned the "on" letter as meaning "oil". And
with
> Deseret there is no "ado" so I reassigned the "up" letter
with "ado".
>
>
>
> As for the rhotics, Utahn is a Rhotic Dialect. But since there is
no
> Compound letters in Deseret, so I had to by default omit the
ligatures. And
> in case you were wondering Star, I can write Fluently with all 48
Shavian
> letters, even if I don't precisely pronounce them all. Shavian 38
is a
> little pet project of mine for a possible Conlang I'll be
inventing.
>
>
>
> Best of Regards,
>
>
>
> Carl
>
> Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> Uh, Carl? I see an intrinsic issue with cutting down to 38 out of
48,
> and that being that Shaw specifically said that there should be
more
> than 40 letters, if I recall correctly. Why not cut it down to 26
> letters and... well, maybe not. But the point being that English
is a
> complex language, and paring down an alphabet seems like regression
> back to the ill suited TO.
>
> Most of the ones that you mentioned, while suited for you, are not
> suited for others. I find myself using the rhotics because, as we
all
> learned when reading, a vowel + R combination makes a different
sound
> than a simple vowel, and it makes reading faster and easier at
least
> for me. The on/ah problem is going to persist for some, and not for
> others, I think it's dependant on how varied your own vowel usage
is,
> and the up/ado problem is going to persist for those who can't
figure
> out stress. That's just going to happen, and if you want to learn
how
> to use the alphabet the way it was created, granted there are some
> issues, but I find those are in a lack of letters, not in an
> overabundance.
>
> I could be wrong, I could be crazy. You pick.
> --Star
>
> ==========
>
> "Better wizards than you have lost buttocks, you know!"
> --Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody
>
> http://www.livejour <http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad>
> nal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
>
> I just wanted to say hi to you all as a new member from the
Netherlands.
>
> I joined this group as I'm interested in the Shavian alphabet for
some time now and learned it my self. I also created a version of
Shavian to be able to make notes in Dutch and as I can say I really
enjoy being able to write Shavian.
>
> You will see me posting more in the groups the upcoming time.


Hi Ramses, and welcome!

Is your name really "Ramses"? - Get oudt a here! ;-)

But seriously .... How long did it take you to learn Shavian, to the
point you could use it fairly fluently for writing English?

Also, I'd be fascinated to hear more details of your Dutch Shavian; in
particular:
1. How many vowel phonemes does your dialect of Dutch require?
2. How many vowel phonemes does Standard Dutch require?
3. Does each standard Shavian symbol have the same value in Dutch as
in English?
4. How many new symbols have you created, if any?
5. If you have created new symbols, what are the principles
underlying their construction and shapes?

Regaards,
Yahya

Hi again!

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
>
...
> I also found it easy to write Shavian, took me about two weeks to
get the basics and use the system in meetings for taking notes. But
remember: you already know how the language you're noting works so
that part of learning can be ignored, you only have to learn new
characters and have to learn how to properly use them.

Two weeks? That's great! Did you use any particular tools or
exercises, or do you have any tricks for making the learning task
easier? For example, did you carry a "cheat sheet" with a table of
the alphabet? A list of common words?

Regards,
Yahya

Of course I used a 'cheat sheet' for when I forgot the proper
character for the thing I wanted to write down. But a great training
for me was to simply write down my thoughts in a kind of diary. That
way I used a heck lot of different words.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi again!
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
> >
> ...
> > I also found it easy to write Shavian, took me about two weeks to
> get the basics and use the system in meetings for taking notes. But
> remember: you already know how the language you're noting works so
> that part of learning can be ignored, you only have to learn new
> characters and have to learn how to properly use them.
>
> Two weeks? That's great! Did you use any particular tools or
> exercises, or do you have any tricks for making the learning task
> easier? For example, did you carry a "cheat sheet" with a table of
> the alphabet? A list of common words?
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

Hi Yahya,

Yes, my name is really Ramses ;).

It took me 2 to 3 weeks to fluently use Shavian. But I used it
intensive (used it in very long meetings) and I'm best with Shavian
when I write Dutch with it.

Your other questions:
1. I don't speak a dialect of Dutch. I speak - what they call -
Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands (ABN, General Civilized Dutch (roughly
translated)) or Algemeen Nederlands (General Dutch, same as ABN)
2. Maybe the best answer for your question is this site:
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm
3. No, for example we don't have the soft G (okay, people in the south
of the Netherlands pronounce the G softly, but not me) so I used the
IPA table and a Dutch transliteration of Quikscript to 'translate'
Shavian for the Dutch language.
4. None, I even had symbols left as Dutch has less vowel phonemes. I
did used one symbol for the 'en' sound which can be trabnslated to
'and'. But lots of words also have that sound so that it would be
handy to have it in the alphabet.
5. See answer 4.

Ramses

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
> >
> > I just wanted to say hi to you all as a new member from the
> Netherlands.
> >
> > I joined this group as I'm interested in the Shavian alphabet for
> some time now and learned it my self. I also created a version of
> Shavian to be able to make notes in Dutch and as I can say I really
> enjoy being able to write Shavian.
> >
> > You will see me posting more in the groups the upcoming time.
>
>
> Hi Ramses, and welcome!
>
> Is your name really "Ramses"? - Get oudt a here! ;-)
>
> But seriously .... How long did it take you to learn Shavian, to the
> point you could use it fairly fluently for writing English?
>
> Also, I'd be fascinated to hear more details of your Dutch Shavian; in
> particular:
> 1. How many vowel phonemes does your dialect of Dutch require?
> 2. How many vowel phonemes does Standard Dutch require?
> 3. Does each standard Shavian symbol have the same value in Dutch as
> in English?
> 4. How many new symbols have you created, if any?
> 5. If you have created new symbols, what are the principles
> underlying their construction and shapes?
>
> Regaards,
> Yahya
>

Hi Ramses,

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
>
> Of course I used a 'cheat sheet' for when I forgot the proper
character for the thing I wanted to write down. But a great training
for me was to simply write down my thoughts in a kind of diary. That
way I used a heck lot of different words.

A diary sounds like an excellent idea! It requires you to write a
little every day, thus getting the necessary practice.

When I was studying Teeline (shorthand), I was also attending
university lectures, so I took lecture notes in Teeline. That meant
that I HAD to be able to read them back if I was to study
effectively, and so learning was very quick indeed.

Thanks for the reply.

Regards,
Yahya

Hi Ramses,

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
>
> Hi Yahya,
>
> Yes, my name is really Ramses ;).

One of my favourite Pharaohs! Do you know the books by Christian
Jacq?


> It took me 2 to 3 weeks to fluently use Shavian. But I used it
> intensive (used it in very long meetings) and I'm best with Shavian
> when I write Dutch with it.
>
> Your other questions:
> 1. I don't speak a dialect of Dutch. I speak - what they call -
Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands (ABN, General Civilized Dutch (roughly
translated)) or Algemeen Nederlands (General Dutch, same as ABN)
> 2. Maybe the best answer for your question is this site:
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm

Thanks, that's very clear.


> 3. No, for example we don't have the soft G (okay, people in the
south of the Netherlands pronounce the G softly, but not me) so I
used the IPA table and a Dutch transliteration of Quikscript
to 'translate' Shavian for the Dutch language.

OK, so perhaps I goofed and didn't express myself clearly. What I
meant to ask was:
3. Does each standard Shavian symbol *that you use for Dutch* have
the same value in Dutch as in English?


> 4. None, I even had symbols left as Dutch has less vowel phonemes.
I did used one symbol for the 'en' sound which can be trabnslated
to 'and'. But lots of words also have that sound so that it would be
handy to have it in the alphabet.
> 5. See answer 4.

No especial need for graphical ingenuity, then.


> Ramses
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" wrote:
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Ramses Oudt" wrote:
> > >
> > > I just wanted to say hi to you all as a new member from the
> > Netherlands.
> > >
> > > I joined this group as I'm interested in the Shavian alphabet
for some time now and learned it my self. I also created a version
of Shavian to be able to make notes in Dutch and as I can say I
really enjoy being able to write Shavian.
> > >
> > > You will see me posting more in the groups the upcoming time.
> >
> >
> > Hi Ramses, and welcome!
> >
> > Is your name really "Ramses"? - Get oudt a here! ;-)
> >
> > But seriously .... How long did it take you to learn Shavian, to
the point you could use it fairly fluently for writing English?
> >
> > Also, I'd be fascinated to hear more details of your Dutch
Shavian; in particular:
> > 1. How many vowel phonemes does your dialect of Dutch require?
> > 2. How many vowel phonemes does Standard Dutch require?
> > 3. Does each standard Shavian symbol have the same value in
Dutch as in English?
> > 4. How many new symbols have you created, if any?
> > 5. If you have created new symbols, what are the principles
> > underlying their construction and shapes?

Regards,
Yahya