Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Hi DaShep
I am idealistic. I would like to use the entire Shavian Alphabet,
but a number of the distinctions are either beyond me, or are so
vague as to make me uncertain a good part of the time.
I used to be vague about Ado and Up, but now I can tell them apart.

But I want to be consistent more than anything else in how I use the
Shavian Alphabet to represent what I say and How I say it.
So my pragmatic side comes to the fore and I limit my usage of
certain Shavian Letters.
In particular, Ian, On and Err(Urge).
I am starting to use Err a little bit, but it is better to (put) err
on the side of caution.
Urrh, sorry bad pun, but you get my point.
Language is some what mallable, and so very hard to capture exactly.
Still, I think the Shaw Alphabet and its variants are the best
things out there.

Regards, Paul V.
______________________attached_____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
>
> dshep wrote:
>
> >For myself i just use the [a] no matter what as that avoids
that
> problem.
>
> Actually I don't. In the contest between philosophical
standpoints
> and pragmatic execution I generally allow pragmatics to prevail,
> without thinking about it overly much. So I notice that when
writing
> anything I use [i] to end such words as happy, silly, funny etc.
Not
> quite the /ee/ sound of [I] but close enough as far as my speech
is
> concerned. Moreover this choice also avoids what might be
perceived
> as stress distortion in simple words.
>
> generally philosophically impaired,
> dshep
>

regordiN: 153 memori


mF pErents wer jMniversiti lFbrErianz, sO F begAn SelviN bUks akOrdiN t
H /dMi desimal klAsifikESon sistem wen F waz abQt in H 7T grEd.

. . . . .

H sistem divFdz Yl hjMmAn noleJ intM 10 klAses: JenerAlitIz, filosofi,
reliJon, sOSial sFens, lANgwaJ, sFens, teknoloJi, orts, literacur, n
histori.

. . . . .

Ic klAs hAz 10 diviZonz; Ic diviZon hAz 10 subdiviZonz kYld sekSonz. a
pikcur kolekSon wUd Hen begin wiH 1,000 fFl fOlderz.

. . . . .

mOst lFbrErianz kwikli memorFz H 100 diviZonz n mOr grAdjMali lern H 900
sekSonz eksperienSiali Az HE retrIv pEtronz rekwests. fOr ekzAmpel, a
juN lEdi wonts t cMz a nEm fOr her bEbi. H number on H spFn v HAt buk
wUd bI 929. 920 iz bFografi.

. . . . .

mF memori meTod iz t kreEt a mOSon pikcur sIn v a person dMiN somTiN F
kAn asOsiEt wiH HAt portikjMlar diviZon. F selekted a komIdian, /Jimi
durAnti fOr diviZon 20. 020 iz lFbrEri teknoloJi. H sIn F viZMalFz iz a
litel girl AskiN wEr SI kAn fFnd a pikcur v a buterflF. hI tEks her t a
Self v ensFklOpediaz fOr juN pIpel n SOz her hQ t lUk it up Alfabetikli
in H \bI\ voljUm.



bAk in a fjM minuts SI eksplEnz HAt her tIcer hAz asFnd Ic stMdent t rFt
a 7 t 10 paragrAf pAper n H subJekt SI cOz waz 'H buterflF TiOri v
relativiti'. SI nIdz t SO hQ HAt insekt relEts in som wE t filosofi n
ort, t reliJon, sFens,n sOsFeti, lANgwaJ, literacur, n sO fOrT.



AkSMali, mF komIdian, /Jimi, iz Onli number 20, n viZMali relEted t Just
10 fOlderz: 020, 120, 220 n on TrM 920. mF ful kAst v kErAkterz inklMdz
99 oHerz, Ic v wic YlsO relAts t 10 fOlderz.

. . . . .

bUt jMziN H kAtalog kompjMter /Jimi kwikli givz her 7 bUk Or fOlder
numberz: 026, speSial subJekts--H /gMgel imaJez (9,000,000 buterflF
pikcurz); 129 n 398: simbol v sOl destini; 423: etimoloJi v 'buter' flF;
558: kYz n efekt TiOri v mIteOroloJist, profesOr /lOrenz abQt hQ H
'buterflF efekt' in /sQT amerika kAn triger tOrnEdOz in /teksas; 638,
insekts in Agrikulcur.

. . . . .

but, Az it turnd Qt, bUk number 704, Jeneral speSial, kombFnd Yl HIz
vErId referensez in Just a fjM pEJez, everiTiN SI nIded t rFt her SOrt
esE.

***********************

To err or not to err. That is the question.

Or rather, does one err by pronouncing "err" to rhyme with "where"?

Most dictionaries insist that it should rhyme with "her". Probably all
your teachers did so as well.

However, go back a bit and you shall find in "John Walker's Critical
Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language"
(London, 1824) an earlier opinion.

John Walker (1732-1807), originally an actor and thus concerned with
enunciation, set out in his work to complement Samuel Johnson's great
dictionary of 1755 by offering guidance to clear pronunciation, which
Johnson had declined to provide. The 1824 edition cited above is
available for download from the University of Toronto at

http://www.archive.org/details/walkerscriticalp00walkrich

Walker's entry for "err" states that it is to be pronounced with "the
short e of met, let, get", as are all related words such as "errant,
erratick, erroneous, errata, errour" (spellings as in the original). All
these related words are still pronounced with the short e, only the
stem word itself has undergone an incomplete or imperfect change.

So there, this should reinforce the assertion that the widespread
pronunciation of this and other words used in America is not an
"errour" but merely a retention of earlier usage, namely 18th-century
English. Other examples illustrated in this dictionary are "ask" with
"the short a, as in fat, mat, marry", and "either" pronounced with
"the long e, as in me". Furthermore it would appear that the "r" is
always sounded. He does however include what he calls "the short
broad o, as in not, hot, got". The differences that now exist between
BritSpeak and that of the former colonies mostly developed after the
separation, when the latest fashions from London were more easily
resisted, not to say ignored.

Here is a brief biography from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica:

JOHN WALKER (1732-1807), English actor, philologist and lexicographer,
was born at Colney Hatch, Middlesex, on the 18th of March 1732. Early
in life he became an actor, his theatrical engagements including one
with
Garrick at Drury Lane, and a long season in Dublin. In 1768 he left the
stage. After some experience in conducting a school at Kensington he
commenced to teach elocution, and in this found his principal employment
for the rest of his life. In 1775 he published his Rhyming
Dictionary, which
achieved a great success and has been repeatedly reprinted, and in 1791
his Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, which achieved an even greater
reputation, and has run into some forty editions. He was the friend
of the
leading literary men of his time, including Johnson and Burke. He
died in
London on the 1st of August 1807.

ever erringly,
dshep

Hallo all,

Dshep, thanks for your wonderfully informative post!

I had long wondered whether there was some objective evidence
favouring the "ee-ther" or the "eye-ther" pronunciation of "either",
and you have now cleared that up for me. Our teachers tended to
favour "eye-ther", and my guess is that's how a certain Germanic
princess might have been tempted to pronounce it, following the rule
we learnt in German class: "'ie' sounds like 'e' and 'ei' sounds
like 'eye'". However it came about, by mid-C20 in Australia, "ee-
ther" was thought to be an uncultured variant pronunciation, and so
deprecated.

Fascinating to learn that "ask" should rhyme with "mass". We never
heard this in school, only "ahsk", and got in trouble if caught
singing songs with an "American" accent! But so many good songs from
Britain or America don't even rhyme if sung with a purely Australian
accent - could we help it? Art always won.

"the short broad o, as in not, hot, got" certainly persists here -
there's no "cot-caught merger" in Oz. In fact, when I hear an actor
on American TV say "got", the vowel is just like I'd say in "gut",
but longer, and of course the final "t" differs too, sounding more
like an inaspirate "d".

Which brings me to a question: do you, or any Shavian users you know,
bother marking purely phonetic features, such as the aspiration of
stops: e.g. "You bet(h)!" or "I don't(h) ...". (Personally, I'm
happy to stop at the phonemic level; perhaps, in writing a play, I'd
appreciate the ability to indicate a character's pronunciation more
precisely, as being, well, characteristic.)

Regards,
Yahya


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@...> wrote:
>
> To err or not to err. That is the question.
>
> Or rather, does one err by pronouncing "err" to rhyme with "where"?
>
> Most dictionaries insist that it should rhyme with "her". Probably
all
> your teachers did so as well.
>
> However, go back a bit and you shall find in "John Walker's Critical
> Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language"
> (London, 1824) an earlier opinion.
>
> John Walker (1732-1807), originally an actor and thus concerned with
> enunciation, set out in his work to complement Samuel Johnson's
great
> dictionary of 1755 by offering guidance to clear pronunciation,
which
> Johnson had declined to provide. The 1824 edition cited above is
> available for download from the University of Toronto at
>
> http://www.archive.org/details/walkerscriticalp00walkrich
>
> Walker's entry for "err" states that it is to be pronounced
with "the
> short e of met, let, get", as are all related words such as "errant,
> erratick, erroneous, errata, errour" (spellings as in the
original). All
> these related words are still pronounced with the short e, only the
> stem word itself has undergone an incomplete or imperfect change.
>
> So there, this should reinforce the assertion that the widespread
> pronunciation of this and other words used in America is not an
> "errour" but merely a retention of earlier usage, namely 18th-
century
> English. Other examples illustrated in this dictionary are "ask"
with
> "the short a, as in fat, mat, marry", and "either" pronounced with
> "the long e, as in me". Furthermore it would appear that the "r" is
> always sounded. He does however include what he calls "the short
> broad o, as in not, hot, got". The differences that now exist
between
> BritSpeak and that of the former colonies mostly developed after the
> separation, when the latest fashions from London were more easily
> resisted, not to say ignored.
>
> Here is a brief biography from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica:
>
> JOHN WALKER (1732-1807), English actor, philologist and
lexicographer,
> was born at Colney Hatch, Middlesex, on the 18th of March 1732.
Early
> in life he became an actor, his theatrical engagements including
one
> with
> Garrick at Drury Lane, and a long season in Dublin. In 1768 he left
the
> stage. After some experience in conducting a school at Kensington he
> commenced to teach elocution, and in this found his principal
employment
> for the rest of his life. In 1775 he published his Rhyming
> Dictionary, which
> achieved a great success and has been repeatedly reprinted, and in
1791
> his Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, which achieved an even greater
> reputation, and has run into some forty editions. He was the
friend
> of the
> leading literary men of his time, including Johnson and Burke. He
> died in
> London on the 1st of August 1807.
>
> ever erringly,
> dshep
>

Hi Philip T.

I used to a Librarian of sorts, myself.
So I also shelved books for a number of years.
I am guessing that 153 is the Dewey Decimal number for
books on the process of Memory.
You have an interesting mnemonic method for remembering the
Dewey Decimal System for cataloging books.

I had less success in Cataloging new books into the right
number. Some Publishers do provide that information in the
Publication Data under the Copyright information at the
beginning of the book. But sadly, not all.
As I recall
Fiction, at least the stuff I could read was all found
in the 800's. In particular from 810 to the middle of
the 820's.
800 Literature & rhetoric
810 American literature
820 English & Old English literatures
The DDS always seemed to be a little biased towards the
Non-Fictional
books.
It always seemed strange not to call the Non-Fictional books
the Factual books, but then probably the Encyclopedias would feel
somewhat diminished.
Anyway thanks for the information about taping into the Factual
books. I use the DDS system all the time whenever my memory or
Google fail me.
The Encyclopedias of Britania come in later to say I told you so,
but seem to falling into disrepute for providing New Information.
Still you can't go to far wrong with Wikipedia.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Google seems to accept phonetic spelling more often than not.
__________________attached_____________________
In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "filip tripelo"
<jeneralitez@...> wrote:
>
> regordiN: 153 memori
>
>
> mF pErents wer jMniversiti lFbrErianz, sO F begAn SelviN bUks
akOrdiN t
> H /dMi desimal klAsifikESon sistem wen F waz abQt in H 7T grEd.
>
> . . . . .
>
> H sistem divFdz Yl hjMmAn noleJ intM 10 klAses: JenerAlitIz,
filosofi,
> reliJon, sOSial sFens, lANgwaJ, sFens, teknoloJi, orts, literacur,
n
> histori.
>
> . . . . .
>
> Ic klAs hAz 10 diviZonz; Ic diviZon hAz 10 subdiviZonz kYld
sekSonz. a
> pikcur kolekSon wUd Hen begin wiH 1,000 fFl fOlderz.
>
> . . . . .
>
> mOst lFbrErianz kwikli memorFz H 100 diviZonz n mOr grAdjMali lern
H 900
> sekSonz eksperienSiali Az HE retrIv pEtronz rekwests. fOr
ekzAmpel, a
> juN lEdi wonts t cMz a nEm fOr her bEbi. H number on H spFn v HAt
buk
> wUd bI 929. 920 iz bFografi.
>
> . . . . .
>
> mF memori meTod iz t kreEt a mOSon pikcur sIn v a person dMiN
somTiN F
> kAn asOsiEt wiH HAt portikjMlar diviZon. F selekted a
komIdian, /Jimi
> durAnti fOr diviZon 20. 020 iz lFbrEri teknoloJi. H sIn F viZMalFz
iz a
> litel girl AskiN wEr SI kAn fFnd a pikcur v a buterflF. hI tEks
her t a
> Self v ensFklOpediaz fOr juN pIpel n SOz her hQ t lUk it up
Alfabetikli
> in H \bI\ voljUm.
>
>
>
> bAk in a fjM minuts SI eksplEnz HAt her tIcer hAz asFnd Ic stMdent
t rFt
> a 7 t 10 paragrAf pAper n H subJekt SI cOz waz 'H buterflF TiOri v
> relativiti'. SI nIdz t SO hQ HAt insekt relEts in som wE t
filosofi n
> ort, t reliJon, sFens,n sOsFeti, lANgwaJ, literacur, n sO fOrT.
>
>
>
> AkSMali, mF komIdian, /Jimi, iz Onli number 20, n viZMali relEted
t Just
> 10 fOlderz: 020, 120, 220 n on TrM 920. mF ful kAst v kErAkterz
inklMdz
> 99 oHerz, Ic v wic YlsO relAts t 10 fOlderz.
>
> . . . . .
>
> bUt jMziN H kAtalog kompjMter /Jimi kwikli givz her 7 bUk Or fOlder
> numberz: 026, speSial subJekts--H /gMgel imaJez (9,000,000 buterflF
> pikcurz); 129 n 398: simbol v sOl destini; 423: etimoloJi
v 'buter' flF;
> 558: kYz n efekt TiOri v mIteOroloJist, profesOr /lOrenz abQt hQ H
> 'buterflF efekt' in /sQT amerika kAn triger tOrnEdOz in /teksas;
638,
> insekts in Agrikulcur.
>
> . . . . .
>
> but, Az it turnd Qt, bUk number 704, Jeneral speSial, kombFnd Yl
HIz
> vErId referensez in Just a fjM pEJez, everiTiN SI nIded t rFt her
SOrt
> esE.
>
> ***********************
>

Hi Yahaya

Interesting, as it is to consider the vagaries between Austrian and
Pommey Pronunciations, I would like to stay with a solid Phonemic
orientation.
Shavian was specically planned to avoid the use of Diacritics.

As Shavian focuses on the voiced/unvoiced distinction,
I would not oppose the addition of a new Letter for an un-voiced
w-sound (wh in Roman)
or even a Glottal stop Letter for words like Hawai'i or Uh'Oh.
But I can hardly champion the idea.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples of English words or
phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?
_____________________attached_____________________


P.S. Dshep, Thanks for clarifying the better pronunciation for
Either. Both Ee-ther and Eye-ther run rampant in Canadian
pronunciation, and it used to drive me nuts.
Also thanks for your wonderful post giving the simple American
accent a little more credibility. Just because the Brits
have by far the best Dictionaries nowadays, doesn't mean they make
their Accent pre-eminent. Hear. Hear.
________________________attached____________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@...> wrote:
> I had long wondered whether there was some objective evidence
> favouring the "ee-ther" or the "eye-ther" pronunciation
of "either",
> and you have now cleared that up for me. Our teachers tended to
> favour "eye-ther", and my guess is that's how a certain Germanic
> princess might have been tempted to pronounce it, following the
rule
> we learnt in German class: "'ie' sounds like 'e' and 'ei' sounds
> like 'eye'". However it came about, by mid-C20 in Australia, "ee-
> ther" was thought to be an uncultured variant pronunciation, and
so
> deprecated.
>
> Fascinating to learn that "ask" should rhyme with "mass". We
never
> heard this in school, only "ahsk", and got in trouble if caught
> singing songs with an "American" accent! But so many good songs
from
> Britain or America don't even rhyme if sung with a purely
Australian
> accent - could we help it? Art always won.
>
> "the short broad o, as in not, hot, got" certainly persists here -
> there's no "cot-caught merger" in Oz. In fact, when I hear an
actor
> on American TV say "got", the vowel is just like I'd say in "gut",
> but longer, and of course the final "t" differs too, sounding more
> like an inaspirate "d".
>
> Which brings me to a question: do you, or any Shavian users you
know,
> bother marking purely phonetic features, such as the aspiration of
> stops: e.g. "You bet(h)!" or "I don't(h) ...". (Personally, I'm
> happy to stop at the phonemic level; perhaps, in writing a play,
I'd
> appreciate the ability to indicate a character's pronunciation
more
> precisely, as being, well, characteristic.)
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@...m, dshep <dshep@> wrote:
> >
> > To err or not to err. That is the question.
> >
> > Or rather, does one err by pronouncing "err" to rhyme
with "where"?
> >
> > Most dictionaries insist that it should rhyme with "her".
Probably
> all
> > your teachers did so as well.
> >
> > However, go back a bit and you shall find in "John Walker's
Critical
> > Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language"
> > (London, 1824) an earlier opinion.
> >
> > John Walker (1732-1807), originally an actor and thus concerned
with
> > enunciation, set out in his work to complement Samuel Johnson's
> great
> > dictionary of 1755 by offering guidance to clear pronunciation,
> which
> > Johnson had declined to provide. The 1824 edition cited above is
> > available for download from the University of Toronto at
> >
> > http://www.archive.org/details/walkerscriticalp00walkrich
> >
> > Walker's entry for "err" states that it is to be pronounced
> with "the
> > short e of met, let, get", as are all related words such
as "errant,
> > erratick, erroneous, errata, errour" (spellings as in the
> original). All
> > these related words are still pronounced with the short e, only
the
> > stem word itself has undergone an incomplete or imperfect change.
> >
> > So there, this should reinforce the assertion that the widespread
> > pronunciation of this and other words used in America is not an
> > "errour" but merely a retention of earlier usage, namely 18th-
> century
> > English. Other examples illustrated in this dictionary are "ask"
> with
> > "the short a, as in fat, mat, marry", and "either" pronounced
with
> > "the long e, as in me". Furthermore it would appear that the "r"
is
> > always sounded. He does however include what he calls "the short
> > broad o, as in not, hot, got". The differences that now exist
> between
> > BritSpeak and that of the former colonies mostly developed after
the
> > separation, when the latest fashions from London were more easily
> > resisted, not to say ignored.
> >
> > Here is a brief biography from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica:
> >
> > JOHN WALKER (1732-1807), English actor, philologist and
> lexicographer,
> > was born at Colney Hatch, Middlesex, on the 18th of March 1732.
> Early
> > in life he became an actor, his theatrical engagements including
> one
> > with
> > Garrick at Drury Lane, and a long season in Dublin. In 1768 he
left
> the
> > stage. After some experience in conducting a school at
Kensington he
> > commenced to teach elocution, and in this found his principal
> employment
> > for the rest of his life. In 1775 he published his Rhyming
> > Dictionary, which
> > achieved a great success and has been repeatedly reprinted, and
in
> 1791
> > his Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, which achieved an even
greater
> > reputation, and has run into some forty editions. He was the
> friend
> > of the
> > leading literary men of his time, including Johnson and Burke.
He
> > died in
> > London on the 1st of August 1807.
> >
> > ever erringly,
> > dshep
> >
>

Paul Vandenbrink asks >>P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples
of English words or
phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?<<

Well, most of the Hawaiian islands have the 'okina - Hawai'i,
Moloka'i, Kaho'olawe, Lâna'i, O'ahu, Kaua'i, Ni'ihau, Ka'ula, and
Lo'ihi (that leaves Maui, Nihoa, and Mokumanamana).

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN (born in Honolulu)
**********************************
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM, paul vandenbrink
<vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> Hi Yahaya
>
> Interesting, as it is to consider the vagaries between Austrian and
> Pommey Pronunciations, I would like to stay with a solid Phonemic
> orientation.
> Shavian was specically planned to avoid the use of Diacritics.
>
> As Shavian focuses on the voiced/unvoiced distinction,
> I would not oppose the addition of a new Letter for an un-voiced
> w-sound (wh in Roman)
> or even a Glottal stop Letter for words like Hawai'i or Uh'Oh.
> But I can hardly champion the idea.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples of English words or
> phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?
> _____________________attached_____________________
>
>
> P.S. Dshep, Thanks for clarifying the better pronunciation for
> Either. Both Ee-ther and Eye-ther run rampant in Canadian
> pronunciation, and it used to drive me nuts.
> Also thanks for your wonderful post giving the simple American
> accent a little more credibility. Just because the Brits
> have by far the best Dictionaries nowadays, doesn't mean they make
> their Accent pre-eminent. Hear. Hear.
> ________________________attached____________________________
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@...> wrote:
> > I had long wondered whether there was some objective evidence
> > favouring the "ee-ther" or the "eye-ther" pronunciation
> of "either",
> > and you have now cleared that up for me. Our teachers tended to
> > favour "eye-ther", and my guess is that's how a certain Germanic
> > princess might have been tempted to pronounce it, following the
> rule
> > we learnt in German class: "'ie' sounds like 'e' and 'ei' sounds
> > like 'eye'". However it came about, by mid-C20 in Australia, "ee-
> > ther" was thought to be an uncultured variant pronunciation, and
> so
> > deprecated.
> >
> > Fascinating to learn that "ask" should rhyme with "mass". We
> never
> > heard this in school, only "ahsk", and got in trouble if caught
> > singing songs with an "American" accent! But so many good songs
> from
> > Britain or America don't even rhyme if sung with a purely
> Australian
> > accent - could we help it? Art always won.
> >
> > "the short broad o, as in not, hot, got" certainly persists here -
> > there's no "cot-caught merger" in Oz. In fact, when I hear an
> actor
> > on American TV say "got", the vowel is just like I'd say in "gut",
> > but longer, and of course the final "t" differs too, sounding more
> > like an inaspirate "d".
> >
> > Which brings me to a question: do you, or any Shavian users you
> know,
> > bother marking purely phonetic features, such as the aspiration of
> > stops: e.g. "You bet(h)!" or "I don't(h) ...". (Personally, I'm
> > happy to stop at the phonemic level; perhaps, in writing a play,
> I'd
> > appreciate the ability to indicate a character's pronunciation
> more
> > precisely, as being, well, characteristic.)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Yahya
> >
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@> wrote:
> > >
> > > To err or not to err. That is the question.
> > >
> > > Or rather, does one err by pronouncing "err" to rhyme
> with "where"?
> > >
> > > Most dictionaries insist that it should rhyme with "her".
> Probably
> > all
> > > your teachers did so as well.
> > >
> > > However, go back a bit and you shall find in "John Walker's
> Critical
> > > Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language"
> > > (London, 1824) an earlier opinion.
> > >
> > > John Walker (1732-1807), originally an actor and thus concerned
> with
> > > enunciation, set out in his work to complement Samuel Johnson's
> > great
> > > dictionary of 1755 by offering guidance to clear pronunciation,
> > which
> > > Johnson had declined to provide. The 1824 edition cited above is
> > > available for download from the University of Toronto at
> > >
> > > http://www.archive.org/details/walkerscriticalp00walkrich
> > >
> > > Walker's entry for "err" states that it is to be pronounced
> > with "the
> > > short e of met, let, get", as are all related words such
> as "errant,
> > > erratick, erroneous, errata, errour" (spellings as in the
> > original). All
> > > these related words are still pronounced with the short e, only
> the
> > > stem word itself has undergone an incomplete or imperfect change.
> > >
> > > So there, this should reinforce the assertion that the widespread
> > > pronunciation of this and other words used in America is not an
> > > "errour" but merely a retention of earlier usage, namely 18th-
> > century
> > > English. Other examples illustrated in this dictionary are "ask"
> > with
> > > "the short a, as in fat, mat, marry", and "either" pronounced
> with
> > > "the long e, as in me". Furthermore it would appear that the "r"
> is
> > > always sounded. He does however include what he calls "the short
> > > broad o, as in not, hot, got". The differences that now exist
> > between
> > > BritSpeak and that of the former colonies mostly developed after
> the
> > > separation, when the latest fashions from London were more easily
> > > resisted, not to say ignored.
> > >
> > > Here is a brief biography from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica:
> > >
> > > JOHN WALKER (1732-1807), English actor, philologist and
> > lexicographer,
> > > was born at Colney Hatch, Middlesex, on the 18th of March 1732.
> > Early
> > > in life he became an actor, his theatrical engagements including
> > one
> > > with
> > > Garrick at Drury Lane, and a long season in Dublin. In 1768 he
> left
> > the
> > > stage. After some experience in conducting a school at
> Kensington he
> > > commenced to teach elocution, and in this found his principal
> > employment
> > > for the rest of his life. In 1775 he published his Rhyming
> > > Dictionary, which
> > > achieved a great success and has been repeatedly reprinted, and
> in
> > 1791
> > > his Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, which achieved an even
> greater
> > > reputation, and has run into some forty editions. He was the
> > friend
> > > of the
> > > leading literary men of his time, including Johnson and Burke.
> He
> > > died in
> > > London on the 1st of August 1807.
> > >
> > > ever erringly,
> > > dshep
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Bob R.
Thanks for the information.
I was just in Hawai'i and I noticed a number of Hawaiian Loan words
to English are pronounced there with an embedded Glottal stop.
The Letter for a Glottal Stop is called 'okina in Hawaiian.
I do not know how familar peoplae are with these words?
But here we go.

Lu'au Feast and Party with Dancing in the Hula style
Kama'aina Local resident of Hawai'i
Ah'ah rough-surface volcanic rock, usually razor sharp
Ka'una Hawaiian priest, wizard, or shaman.
Also used in the slang expression "big kahuna"
mu'umu'u Moomoo for short. A full colored robe or dress
Uk'ulele A small guitar-like musical instrument

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Some people pronounce O'ahu O-wah-hoo, with out the Glottal
stop. Is that an acceptable pronunciation?
______________________attached__________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Richmond"
<RSRICHMOND@...> wrote:
>
> Paul Vandenbrink asks >>P.S. Does anyone know any other good
examples
> of English words or
> phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?<<
>
> Well, most of the Hawaiian islands have the 'okina - Hawai'i,
> Moloka'i, Kaho'olawe, Lâna'i, O'ahu, Kaua'i, Ni'ihau, Ka'ula, and
> Lo'ihi (that leaves Maui, Nihoa, and Mokumanamana).
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN (born in Honolulu)
> **********************************
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM, paul vandenbrink
> <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> > Hi Yahaya
> >
> > Interesting, as it is to consider the vagaries between Austrian
and
> > Pommey Pronunciations, I would like to stay with a solid
Phonemic
> > orientation.
> > Shavian was specically planned to avoid the use of Diacritics.
> >
> > As Shavian focuses on the voiced/unvoiced distinction,
> > I would not oppose the addition of a new Letter for an un-voiced
> > w-sound (wh in Roman)
> > or even a Glottal stop Letter for words like Hawai'i or Uh'Oh.
> > But I can hardly champion the idea.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples of English words
or
> > phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?
> > _____________________attached_____________________
> >
> >
> > P.S. Dshep, Thanks for clarifying the better pronunciation for
> > Either. Both Ee-ther and Eye-ther run rampant in Canadian
> > pronunciation, and it used to drive me nuts.
> > Also thanks for your wonderful post giving the simple American
> > accent a little more credibility. Just because the Brits
> > have by far the best Dictionaries nowadays, doesn't mean they
make
> > their Accent pre-eminent. Hear. Hear.
> > ________________________attached____________________________
> >
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@> wrote:
> > > I had long wondered whether there was some objective evidence
> > > favouring the "ee-ther" or the "eye-ther" pronunciation
> > of "either",
> > > and you have now cleared that up for me. Our teachers tended
to
> > > favour "eye-ther", and my guess is that's how a certain
Germanic
> > > princess might have been tempted to pronounce it, following
the
> > rule
> > > we learnt in German class: "'ie' sounds like 'e' and 'ei'
sounds
> > > like 'eye'". However it came about, by mid-C20 in
Australia, "ee-
> > > ther" was thought to be an uncultured variant pronunciation,
and
> > so
> > > deprecated.
> > >
> > > Fascinating to learn that "ask" should rhyme with "mass". We
> > never
> > > heard this in school, only "ahsk", and got in trouble if
caught
> > > singing songs with an "American" accent! But so many good
songs
> > from
> > > Britain or America don't even rhyme if sung with a purely
> > Australian
> > > accent - could we help it? Art always won.
> > >
> > > "the short broad o, as in not, hot, got" certainly persists
here -
> > > there's no "cot-caught merger" in Oz. In fact, when I hear an
> > actor
> > > on American TV say "got", the vowel is just like I'd say
in "gut",
> > > but longer, and of course the final "t" differs too, sounding
more
> > > like an inaspirate "d".
> > >
> > > Which brings me to a question: do you, or any Shavian users
you
> > know,
> > > bother marking purely phonetic features, such as the
aspiration of
> > > stops: e.g. "You bet(h)!" or "I don't(h) ...". (Personally,
I'm
> > > happy to stop at the phonemic level; perhaps, in writing a
play,
> > I'd
> > > appreciate the ability to indicate a character's pronunciation
> > more
> > > precisely, as being, well, characteristic.)
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Yahya
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshep <dshep@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > To err or not to err. That is the question.
> > > >
> > > > Or rather, does one err by pronouncing "err" to rhyme
> > with "where"?
> > > >
> > > > Most dictionaries insist that it should rhyme with "her".
> > Probably
> > > all
> > > > your teachers did so as well.
> > > >
> > > > However, go back a bit and you shall find in "John Walker's
> > Critical
> > > > Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English
Language"
> > > > (London, 1824) an earlier opinion.
> > > >
> > > > John Walker (1732-1807), originally an actor and thus
concerned
> > with
> > > > enunciation, set out in his work to complement Samuel
Johnson's
> > > great
> > > > dictionary of 1755 by offering guidance to clear
pronunciation,
> > > which
> > > > Johnson had declined to provide. The 1824 edition cited
above is
> > > > available for download from the University of Toronto at
> > > >
> > > > http://www.archive.org/details/walkerscriticalp00walkrich
> > > >
> > > > Walker's entry for "err" states that it is to be pronounced
> > > with "the
> > > > short e of met, let, get", as are all related words such
> > as "errant,
> > > > erratick, erroneous, errata, errour" (spellings as in the
> > > original). All
> > > > these related words are still pronounced with the short e,
only
> > the
> > > > stem word itself has undergone an incomplete or imperfect
change.
> > > >
> > > > So there, this should reinforce the assertion that the
widespread
> > > > pronunciation of this and other words used in America is
not an
> > > > "errour" but merely a retention of earlier usage, namely
18th-
> > > century
> > > > English. Other examples illustrated in this dictionary
are "ask"
> > > with
> > > > "the short a, as in fat, mat, marry", and "either"
pronounced
> > with
> > > > "the long e, as in me". Furthermore it would appear that
the "r"
> > is
> > > > always sounded. He does however include what he calls "the
short
> > > > broad o, as in not, hot, got". The differences that now
exist
> > > between
> > > > BritSpeak and that of the former colonies mostly developed
after
> > the
> > > > separation, when the latest fashions from London were more
easily
> > > > resisted, not to say ignored.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a brief biography from the 1911 Encyclopædia
Britannica:
> > > >
> > > > JOHN WALKER (1732-1807), English actor, philologist and
> > > lexicographer,
> > > > was born at Colney Hatch, Middlesex, on the 18th of March
1732.
> > > Early
> > > > in life he became an actor, his theatrical engagements
including
> > > one
> > > > with
> > > > Garrick at Drury Lane, and a long season in Dublin. In 1768
he
> > left
> > > the
> > > > stage. After some experience in conducting a school at
> > Kensington he
> > > > commenced to teach elocution, and in this found his
principal
> > > employment
> > > > for the rest of his life. In 1775 he published his Rhyming
> > > > Dictionary, which
> > > > achieved a great success and has been repeatedly reprinted,
and
> > in
> > > 1791
> > > > his Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, which achieved an even
> > greater
> > > > reputation, and has run into some forty editions. He was the
> > > friend
> > > > of the
> > > > leading literary men of his time, including Johnson and
Burke.
> > He
> > > > died in
> > > > London on the 1st of August 1807.
> > > >
> > > > ever erringly,
> > > > dshep
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Paul,

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink" wrote:
>
> Hi Yahaya

Interesting - the Malays always introduce an extra vowel between
consonants they can't pronounce together, and they too called me
"Ya-ha-ya" rather than "Yah-ya".


> Interesting, as it is to consider the vagaries between Austrian ...

That'd be "Australian";, ie of the sixth continent; "Austria" is
a tiny European nation of great historic significance. Fact, if I
weren't Australian, I wouldn't mind being Austrian, since any country
that can produce the music of the Mozarts, Beethoven and the
Strausses can't be all bad!

> and Pommey Pronunciations, I would like to stay with a solid
Phonemic
> orientation.
> Shavian was specically planned to avoid the use of Diacritics.
>
> As Shavian focuses on the voiced/unvoiced distinction,
> I would not oppose the addition of a new Letter for an un-voiced
> w-sound (wh in Roman)

You've lost me here - is the distinction between English "w" and "wh"
purely one of voicing? Say the sentence: "Well, the wheel's all
white" and attend to your w's. What do you notice? I have:

- 1 - no voice for the w of "well", and no aspiration, but just lip
rounding prior to the (voiced) vowel e;

- 2 - no voice for the wh of "wheel", but aspiration and lip rounding
prior to the (voiced) vowel ee; and similar features in "white".

But I can't think of a minimal pair to support the contention
that "w" and "wh" are distinct phonemes in Aussie English.

Oh yes, one more thing: - 2 - above is a polite lie, since that's
only the pronunciation I use in formal speech. In everyday register,
the "wh" sound, for me, has been completely supplanted by "w". I
also see little evidence that younger Australians even have the "wh"
sound at all. Declining standards? Or just natural language
evolution?


> or even a Glottal stop Letter for words like Hawai'i or Uh'Oh.
> But I can hardly champion the idea.

Why ever not? If you believe your English needs those letters, then
any worthwhile exercise in the Shavian spirit would gladly supply
them.


> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples of English words or
> phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?

Glottal stop ... it's not a common feature in Oz, except when we take
off the Cockney pronunciation of e.g. "bottle" as "bo'l". How about
compound words whose second component starts with a vowel, such
as "add-on", "carry-on", "up-and-up", "under-arm" and "two-up"? We
tend to elide the break implied by the hyphen, so that, e.g., "carry-
on" begins to sound rather like "carrion".


> _____________________attached_____________________
>
>
> P.S. Dshep, Thanks for clarifying the better pronunciation for
> Either. Both Ee-ther and Eye-ther run rampant in Canadian
> pronunciation, and it used to drive me nuts.
> Also thanks for your wonderful post giving the simple American
> accent a little more credibility. Just because the Brits
> have by far the best Dictionaries nowadays, doesn't mean they make
> their Accent pre-eminent. Hear. Hear.
> ________________________attached____________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@> wrote:
> > I had long wondered whether there was some objective evidence
> > favouring the "ee-ther" or the "eye-ther" pronunciation
> of "either",
> > and you have now cleared that up for me. Our teachers tended to
> > favour "eye-ther", and my guess is that's how a certain Germanic
> > princess might have been tempted to pronounce it, following the
> rule
> > we learnt in German class: "'ie' sounds like 'e' and 'ei' sounds
> > like 'eye'". However it came about, by mid-C20 in Australia, "ee-
> > ther" was thought to be an uncultured variant pronunciation, and
> > so deprecated.
> >
> > Fascinating to learn that "ask" should rhyme with "mass". We
> > never heard this in school, only "ahsk", [...]

I've revised my view since reading Walker's Table of vowels in his
Preface; his description of the "short Italian a" and matching French
examples suggest (but don't prove) to me that the sound he intends is
closer to "ah" than "ae" (as begins "apple"). Using those
conventions, I'd have to write "maess" for "mass" and "ahsk"
for "ask". But it seems to me that Fowler simply fails to
distinguish the two vowels.

Another problem with his vowel table is that his diphthong for "ou",
as in "pound" or "you", starts with his "o3". This produces a sound
("so-und") utterly unlike any English accent I've ever heard, and I
think he's just wrong. In place of the "o3" he should have used
an "a" - but which one? That would be the "ah" variety, I think, in
cultured speech, followed by "u" (as in "cup") - perhaps with a
semivowel glide "w" intervening. Brits trying to emulate an Aussie
accent sometimes follow a broad "ae" sound with the same "u", and
although the tendency they lampoon does exist, the result is
ludicrous. But better they pick on us than on the Irish; we haven't
got a terrorist Republican Army, but we have got thick skins, so can
just grin while we take the Ashes off 'em again ...

However, Fowler's "o3" seems to work fine together with "i" as
in "pin" to make the "oi" diphthong.


Regards,
Yahya

Hi Yahya
Sorry for my miss-spellings.
How exactly would you spell your name in Shavian?
Would it be "jyhajy" or "jAhajA"?

Anyway, as for the difference between the English w-sound and
the wh-sound.
The un-voiced wh-sound is indeed very rare at the beginning of a
word. (i.e. well, while, whoosh, why, Juan) and becoming rarer.
However, I do hear it quite consistently after a Q-sound.
(i.e. quick, queen, quote)
In fact, the w-sound after any un-voiced consonant seems to be
the unvoiced wh-sound. (i.e. twirl, twist, swift, swindle)
If a w-sound follows a regular voiced consonant it is the real deal.
The regular voiced w-sound. (i.e. Dwayne, Gwendolyn, Language,
distinguish)

I agrree that a real minimal pairs to support the contention
that "w" and "wh" are distinct phonemes in English, are hard to find.
For example.
Which kind of witch are you?
And whether the weather will improve.
Both are not clearly differentiated.

As to the Glottal Stop, it is fairly commonly pronounced in English
at the begining of those words that begin with a distinct Vowel
sound,
especially when it is needed to create a clear boundary between two
words. For example, it is added to distinguish between the phrase
"Some Ice" and "Some mice". If you say both these phrases over and
over you will feel the extra little Glottal Stop, which is found
only in the first phrase. But outside of this useful function, it is
remarkable uncommon.

The question is really whether such an additional letter for the
Glotal Stop would be used enough to make up for adding an additional
complication to the Shavian Alphabet.

I expect that if and when I was ready to provide a fully improved
Shaw Alphabet, I would add this among other improvements.

Thanks for the additional Glottal Stop examples. It occurs to me if
"under-arm" has a Glottal stop, so might "sidearm".
"two-up" seems like 2 distinct words like "blow up".
I'd write it "tV up"
There seems to some reduplication in "7-Up". I would pronounce it
sev-an-nup, myself.

Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached_____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya" <yahya@...> wrote:
> Interesting - the Malays always introduce an extra vowel between
> consonants they can't pronounce together, and they too called me
> "Ya-ha-ya" rather than "Yah-ya".
>
> > Interesting, as it is to consider the vagaries between
Austrian ...
>
> That'd be "Australian";, ie of the sixth continent; "Austria" is
> a tiny European nation of great historic significance. Fact, if I
> weren't Australian, I wouldn't mind being Austrian, since any
country
> that can produce the music of the Mozarts, Beethoven and the
> Strausses can't be all bad!
>
> > and Pommey Pronunciations, I would like to stay with a solid
> Phonemic
> > orientation.
> > Shavian was specically planned to avoid the use of Diacritics.
> >
> > As Shavian focuses on the voiced/unvoiced distinction,
> > I would not oppose the addition of a new Letter for an un-voiced
> > w-sound (wh in Roman)
>
> You've lost me here - is the distinction between English "w"
and "wh"
> purely one of voicing? Say the sentence: "Well, the wheel's all
> white" and attend to your w's. What do you notice? I have:
>
> - 1 - no voice for the w of "well", and no aspiration, but just
lip
> rounding prior to the (voiced) vowel e;
>
> - 2 - no voice for the wh of "wheel", but aspiration and lip
rounding
> prior to the (voiced) vowel ee; and similar features in "white".
>
> But I can't think of a minimal pair to support the contention
> that "w" and "wh" are distinct phonemes in Aussie English.
>
> Oh yes, one more thing: - 2 - above is a polite lie, since that's
> only the pronunciation I use in formal speech. In everyday
register,
> the "wh" sound, for me, has been completely supplanted by "w".
> I also see little evidence that younger Australians even have
> the "wh"
> sound at all. Declining standards? Or just natural language
> evolution?
>
>
> > or even a Glottal stop Letter for words like Hawai'i or Uh'Oh.
> > But I can hardly champion the idea.
>
> Why ever not? If you believe your English needs those letters,
then
> any worthwhile exercise in the Shavian spirit would gladly supply
> them.
>
>
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > P.S. Does anyone know any other good examples of English words
or
> > phrases with an embedded Glottal Stop?
>
> Glottal stop ... it's not a common feature in Oz, except when we
take
> off the Cockney pronunciation of e.g. "bottle" as "bo'l". How
about
> compound words whose second component starts with a vowel, such
> as "add-on", "carry-on", "up-and-up", "under-arm" and "two-up"?
We
> tend to elide the break implied by the hyphen, so that,
e.g., "carry-
> on" begins to sound rather like "carrion".