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dshep, I have two words for you:

Vowel... Shift...

--Star, the Happy Housewyf

==========


"By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
-- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest


http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



----- Original Message ----
From: dshep <dshep@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 11:01:08 PM
Subject: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation


--- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com, PV wrote:

> Anyway, as for the difference between the English w-sound and the wh-
> sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> word.

No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where, why!!! Common, important words all; all begin with /hw/, and all are clearly differentiated.

I, and i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now, through considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank granted me by a grateful citizenry) confuse, even without context, whether with weather, which with witch, whine/wine, white/wight, whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail, why/wye, whir/were, what/watt, or where/
were(wolf). There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
I must confess––as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable occurrence) to be allowed to be cranky about something, which may be an unavoidable indulgence as one, ah, matures––that, yes, the pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to me odd indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?

In the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a soft, pleasant voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It was he who last week gave the now famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by his inflammatory remarks which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want to say them. Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one does not oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the speech of others. Most everyone at one time or another has had this experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non, monsieur. Mais certainment non. Écoutez et répétez après moi…" until finally you get within striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is for this reason i believe that some Americans do not hear the difference between war and wore, and do not hear the short-o of the what/pot group of words, sometimes assuming, even
asserting, it does not exist.

Oh, if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes when you shall wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation; and they yours.

wondringly,
dshep



____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Dshep, I THANK YOU!

Within the last year, I was told that an elementary school teacher of
tender years (by our standards) engaged in teaching her students to read
actually told them the "h" in words beginning with "wh" was SILENT! I
almost had a coronary. Not only is she clueless that there are millions
of people who, in fact, pronounce both letters and that dictionaries
still list both pronunciations, but she is passing her ignorance of the
language on to the next generation, and, in the process, hurrying up the
demise of "wh," which, I fear, shall occur in the coming decades.
Nevertheless, we of the Old Farts Club remain stalwart in our resistance
to the change and hoist our banner high.

I must admit that one of my attractions to Quikscript was the addition
of "wh" to the alphabet, whose absence in Shavian I lamented.

Paige

dshep wrote:
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/post?postID=vDhPdanfaU7LN4eLUVr4CFi8PKHaO15yiRDHHuJ7yk_GcoLc62oofroQSetuNYJupD7lDjW1ot_tmdAadx131wUJ>,
> PV wrote:
>
> /> Anyway, as for the difference between the English w-sound and the wh-/
> /> sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is indeed very rare at the beginning
> of a /
> /> word./
> /
> /
> /
> No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where, why!!! Common,
> important words all; all begin with /hw/, and all are clearly
> differentiated.
>
> I, and i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have
> now, through considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a
> rank granted me by a grateful citizenry) confuse, even without
> context, whether with weather, which with witch, whine/wine,
> white/wight, whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail,
> why/wye, whir/were, what/watt, or where/
> were(wolf). There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the
> moment.
> I must confess��as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable
> occurrence) to be allowed to be cranky about something, which may be
> an unavoidable indulgence as one, ah, matures��that, yes, the
> pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to me odd
> indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?
>
> In the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!)
> in a soft, pleasant voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers.
> It was he who last week gave the now famous Pastor Wright the
> opportunity to explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by his
> inflammatory remarks which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he
> would want to say them. Of course, part of the problem, if it is a
> problem, is that if one does not oneself use a particular sound, one
> simply does not hear it in the speech of others. Most everyone at one
> time or another has had this experience: "But that's what I said! Ah
> non, monsieur. Mais certainment non. �coutez et r�p�tez apr�s moi�"
> until finally you get within striking distance or your instructor
> gives up in desperation. It is for this reason i believe that some
> Americans do not hear the difference between war and wore, and do not
> hear the short-o of the what/pot group of words, sometimes assuming,
> even asserting, it does not exist.
>
> Oh, if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time
> comes when you shall wonder about your grandchildren's pronunciation;
> and they yours.
>
> wondringly,
> dshep
>
> /
>

What does this mean?

confounded,
dshep


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> dshep, I have two words for you:
>
> Vowel... Shift...
>
> --Star, the Happy Housewyf
>
> ==========
>
>
> "By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
> -- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest
>
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: dshep <dshep@...>
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 11:01:08 PM
> Subject: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com, PV wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as for the difference between the English w-sound and the wh-
> > sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> > word.
>
> No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where, why!!! Common, important words all; all
begin with /hw/, and all are clearly differentiated.
>
> I, and i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now, through
considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank granted me by a grateful
citizenry) confuse, even without context, whether with weather, which with witch,
whine/wine, white/wight, whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail,
why/wye, whir/were, what/watt, or where/
> were(wolf). There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
> I must confess��as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable occurrence) to be allowed
to be cranky about something, which may be an unavoidable indulgence as one, ah,
matures��that, yes, the pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to
me odd indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?
>
> In the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a soft, pleasant
voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It was he who last week gave the now
famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by
his inflammatory remarks which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want
to say them. Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one does not
oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the speech of others. Most
everyone at one time or another has had this experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non,
monsieur. Mais certainment non. �coutez et r�p�tez apr�s moi�" until finally you get
within striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is for this reason i
believe that some Americans do not hear the difference between war and wore, and do not
hear the short-o of the what/pot group of words, sometimes assuming, even
> asserting, it does not exist.
>
> Oh, if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes when you shall
wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation; and they yours.
>
> wondringly,
> dshep
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>

Our language is constantly evolving. The last major change was the vowel shift of the 12-1600's. Of course, the change only took 400 years, but it was the result of the globalization (known-worldization) of English. What you're showing is yet another great change, a consonant shift and a minor vowel shift which will end...where?

Just a thought.
--Star

==========


"By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
-- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest


http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



----- Original Message ----
From: dshepx <dshep@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 1:29:51 AM
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: keyword pronunciation


What does this mean?

confounded,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com,
--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds @...> wrote:
>
> dshep, I have two words for you:
>
> Vowel... Shift...
>
> --Star, the Happy Housewyf
>
> ==========
>
>
> "By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
> -- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest
>
>
> http://www.livejour nal.com/users/ wodentoad
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: dshep <dshep@...>
> To: shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 11:01:08 PM
> Subject: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com, PV wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as for the difference between the English w-sound and the wh-
> > sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> > word.
>
> No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where, why!!! Common, important words all; all
begin with /hw/, and all are clearly differentiated.
>
> I, and i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now, through
considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank granted me by a grateful
citizenry) confuse, even without context, whether with weather, which with witch,
whine/wine, white/wight, whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail,
why/wye, whir/were, what/watt, or where/
> were(wolf). There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
> I must confess��as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable occurrence) to be allowed
to be cranky about something, which may be an unavoidable indulgence as one, ah,
matures��that, yes, the pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to
me odd indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?
>
> In the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a soft, pleasant
voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It was he who last week gave the now
famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by
his inflammatory remarks which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want
to say them. Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one does not
oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the speech of others. Most
everyone at one time or another has had this experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non,
monsieur. Mais certainment non. �coutez et r�p�tez apr�s moi�" until finally you get
within striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is for this reason i
believe that some Americans do not hear the difference between war and wore, and do not
hear the short-o of the what/pot group of words, sometimes assuming, even
> asserting, it does not exist.
>
> Oh, if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes when you shall
wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation; and they yours.
>
> wondringly,
> dshep
>
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Isn't English wonderful? No regular conjugation, random spelling rules, and a pronunciation that can be like someone speaking Mandarin to someone who only speaks Cantonese. Or worse, Swahili to Tagalog, or Italian to Romanian.

I am all for a /wh/ or /hw/ letter. I'll post my example, which has Lol (elle, loo, whatever) and Oak, just for reference, then Yea, Woe, and A letter I designated Which, as the /hw/ letter. This is, of course, taken from Read's own idea used in QS, but *not* the QS form. I'd also like to take kind of an informal poll of we few shaw fans of the sounds we absolutely have to have to make this into American as well as still reflecting the speech of King George V.

I would say that the only addition needed is the /hw/ sound.

--Star

==========


"By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
-- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest


http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



----- Original Message ----
From: pgabhart <pgabhart@...>
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:20:16 AM
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation


Dshep, I THANK YOU!

Within the last year, I was told that an elementary school teacher of
tender years (by our standards) engaged in teaching her students to
read actually told them the "h" in words beginning with "wh" was
SILENT! I almost had a coronary. Not only is she clueless that there
are millions of people who, in fact, pronounce both letters and that
dictionaries still list both pronunciations, but she is passing her
ignorance of the language on to the next generation, and, in the
process, hurrying up the demise of "wh," which, I fear, shall occur in
the coming decades. Nevertheless, we of the Old Farts Club remain
stalwart in our resistance to the change and hoist our banner high.

I must admit that one of my attractions to Quikscript was the addition
of "wh" to the alphabet, whose absence in Shavian I lamented.

Paige

dshep wrote:
--- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com,
PV wrote:

> Anyway, as for the difference between
the English w-sound and the wh-
> sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is
indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> word.

No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where,
why!!! Common, important words all; all begin with /hw/, and all are
clearly differentiated.

I, and
i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now,
through considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank
granted me by a grateful citizenry) confuse, even without context,
whether with weather, which with witch, whine/wine, white/wight,
whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail, why/wye, whir/were,
what/watt, or where/
were(wolf).
There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
I
must confess––as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable
occurrence) to be allowed to be cranky about something, which may be an
unavoidable indulgence as one, ah, matures––that, yes, the
pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to me odd
indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?

In
the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a
soft, pleasant voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It was
he who last week gave the now famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to
explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by his inflammatory remarks
which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want to say them.
Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one does
not oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the
speech of others. Most everyone at one time or another has had this
experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non, monsieur. Mais certainment
non. Écoutez et répétez après moi…" until finally you get within
striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is for
this reason i believe that some Americans do not hear the difference
between war and wore, and do not hear the short-o of the what/pot group
of words, sometimes assuming, even asserting, it does not exist.

Oh,
if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes
when you shall wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation;
and they yours.

wondringly,
dshep





____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, --- Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

...   ...   ...
> I am all for a /wh/ or /hw/ letter. I'll post my example, which> has
Lol (elle, loo, whatever) and Oak, just for reference, then > Yea,
Woe, and A letter I designated Which, as the /hw/ letter. > This is,
of course, taken from Read's own idea used in QS, but > *not* the QS
form. I'd also like to take kind of an informal poll > of we few shaw
fans of the sounds we absolutely have to have > to make this into
American as well as still reflecting the speech > of King George V.
>
> I would say that the only addition needed is the /hw/ sound.
>
> --Star

Well, i would ask for the continued possibility of
distinguishing or/oar and merry/marry, which i do now by avoiding
the Shavian letters /P/,  /X/ and /x/, using instead /or/ and
/Or/, plus /er/ and /Ar/ respectively. Both Shaw and HRH GV
made these distinctions as did James Murray (OED 1) and Henry
Fowler (COD 1+), so i feel i am in good company.  
dshep

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: pgabhart pgabhart@...
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:20:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation
>
>
> Dshep, I THANK YOU!
>
> Within the last year, I was told that an elementary school teacher of
> tender years (by our standards) engaged in teaching her students to
> read actually told them the "h" in words beginning with "wh" was
> SILENT! I almost had a coronary. Not only is she clueless that there
> are millions of people who, in fact, pronounce both letters and that
> dictionaries still list both pronunciations, but she is passing her
> ignorance of the language on to the next generation, and, in the
> process, hurrying up the demise of "wh," which, I fear, shall occur in
> the coming decades. Nevertheless, we of the Old Farts Club remain
> stalwart in our resistance to the change and hoist our banner high.
>
> I must admit that one of my attractions to Quikscript was the addition
> of "wh" to the alphabet, whose absence in Shavian I lamented.
>
> Paige
>
> dshep wrote:
> --- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com,
> PV wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as for the difference between
> the English w-sound and the wh-
> > sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is
> indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> > word.
>
> No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where,
> why!!! Common, important words all; all begin with /hw/, and all are
> clearly differentiated.
>
> I, and
> i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now,
> through considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank
> granted me by a grateful citizenry) confuse, even without context,
> whether with weather, which with witch, whine/wine, white/wight,
> whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail, why/wye,
whir/were,
> what/watt, or where/
> were(wolf).
> There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
> I
> must confess––as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable
> occurrence) to be allowed to be cranky about something, which may be
an
> unavoidable indulgence as one, ah, matures––that, yes, the
> pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to me odd
> indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?
>
> In
> the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a
> soft, pleasant voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It
was
> he who last week gave the now famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to
> explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by his inflammatory remarks
> which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want to say
them.
> Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one
does
> not oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the
> speech of others. Most everyone at one time or another has had this
> experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non, monsieur. Mais
certainment
> non. Écoutez et répétez après moi…" until finally you
get within
> striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is
for
> this reason i believe that some Americans do not hear the difference
> between war and wore, and do not hear the short-o of the what/pot
group
> of words, sometimes assuming, even asserting, it does not exist.
>
> Oh,
> if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes
> when you shall wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation;
> and they yours.
>
> wondringly,
> dshep

________________________________________________________________________\
____________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>

Paige wrote:
>
> Within the last year, I was told that an elementary
> school teacher of tender years (by our standards)
> engaged in teaching her students to read actually
> told them the "h" in words beginning with "wh" was
> SILENT! I almost had a coronary.

You seem surprised. I remember when I was in
elementary school back in the 1960s, that we were
also told that the h in such words was silent. I suspect
the vast majority of elementary school teachers tell
their students the same thing. Unless specially trained,
they honestly don't know.

Some of my friends from high school went on to
become elementary school teachers. We remained
friends through college. As I recall, they were not
primarily trained in what to teach but how to teach,
i.e. child psychology, behavior, developing unit
lesson plans, and such.

--Ph. D.

*blink, blink* Maybe it's just too early in the morning, but I think I missed that class in code breaking school. OED 1? COD 1+?

Anyway, while (/hw/) the /w/hw/ distinction is clearer, the oar/or distinction is not. I don't see it as up/ado either. I worry about introducing too much to the system and creating a Chinese debacle where every word has it's own special character. Or/oar is so minor, it would be, to me, like spelling the s-i-m sounds in cymbal and symbol differently. Merry/marry are already accounted for with Air and Err (Urge or Her), since that distinction is clearer. There has to be a line in the sand, and I draw it at or/oar, as there would be *no* way to explain it to the non-linguist or even myself in a convincing way, and would only slow down writing: Bore? Boar? And which do I use for Lore? Core? War?

I posted the photo I took of the /hw/ sound in the handwritten shaw folder of the photos section.

As an aside, I believe I've mentioned this before, but I have gone back and done some more handwriting, and I've come to the conclusion that, while counterintuitive on paper, while being hand written, the hung/haha problem is not a problem. Writing words like "her" or "help" or, yes, even "hung" seem to flow better with the letter forms as they are. I'm not starting the fight again, I'm just offering a handwriter's point of view.

Early,
--Star

==========


"By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, you shall be avenged!"
-- Dr. Lazarus, Galaxy Quest


http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad



----- Original Message ----
From: dshepx <dshep@...>
To: shawalphabet@...m
Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 10:25:45 PM
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: keyword pronunciation



--- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com,
--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@ ...> wrote:


... ... ...

> I am all for a /wh/ or /hw/ letter. I'll post my example, which
> has Lol (elle, loo, whatever) and Oak, just for reference, then
> Yea, Woe, and A letter I designated Which, as the /hw/ letter.
> This is, of course, taken from Read's own idea used in QS, but
> *not* the QS form. I'd also like to take kind of an informal poll
> of we few shaw fans of the sounds we absolutely have to have
> to make this into American as well as still reflecting the speech
> of King George V.
>
> I would say that the only addition needed is the /hw/ sound.
>
> --Star

Well, i would ask for the continued possibility of distinguishing
or/oar and merry/marry, which i do now by avoiding the Shavian
letters /P/, /X/ and /x/, using instead /or/ and /Or/, plus /er/ and
/Ar/ respectively. Both Shaw and HRH GV made these distinctions
as did James Murray (OED 1) and Henry Fowler (COD 1+), so i feel
i am in good company.

dshep


> ----- Original Message ----
> From: pgabhart pgabhart@...
> To: shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:20:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] re: keyword pronunciation
>
>
> Dshep, I THANK YOU!
>
> Within the last year, I was told that an elementary school teacher of
> tender years (by our standards) engaged in teaching her students to
> read actually told them the "h" in words beginning with "wh" was
> SILENT! I almost had a coronary. Not only is she clueless that there
> are millions of people who, in fact, pronounce both letters and that
> dictionaries still list both pronunciations, but she is passing her
> ignorance of the language on to the next generation, and, in the
> process, hurrying up the demise of "wh," which, I fear, shall occur in
> the coming decades. Nevertheless, we of the Old Farts Club remain
> stalwart in our resistance to the change and hoist our banner high.
>
> I must admit that one of my attractions to Quikscript was the addition
> of "wh" to the alphabet, whose absence in Shavian I lamented.
>
> Paige
>
> dshep wrote:
> --- In shawalphabet@ yahoogroups. com,
> PV wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as for the difference between
> the English w-sound and the wh-
> > sound. The un-voiced wh-sound is
> indeed very rare at the beginning of a
> > word.
>
> No, no, no! Not rare at all: what, when, where,
> why!!! Common, important words all; all begin with /hw/, and all are
> clearly differentiated.
>
> I, and
> i daresay anyone of my generation, would never, ever (i have now,
> through considerable effort, attained the status of Old Fart, a rank
> granted me by a grateful citizenry) confuse, even without context,
> whether with weather, which with witch, whine/wine, white/wight,
> whit/wit, whee/wee, when/wen, whey/way, whale/wail, why/wye, whir/were,
> what/watt, or where/
> were(wolf).
> There are probably a few more that i don't recall at the moment.
> I
> must confess––as it is a reasonable request (or inevitable
> occurrence) to be allowed to be cranky about something, which may be an
> unavoidable indulgence as one, ah, matures––that, yes, the
> pronunciation of wheat and wheel as weet and weel sounds to me odd
> indeed. What the hell is a weel? Is it real?
>
> In
> the United States one may hear these words pronounced (properly!) in a
> soft, pleasant voice by the popular PBS commentator Bill Moyers. It was
> he who last week gave the now famous Pastor Wright the opportunity to
> explain hwat exactly the good pastor meant by his inflammatory remarks
> which may cost Obama the presidency, and hwy he would want to say them.
> Of course, part of the problem, if it is a problem, is that if one does
> not oneself use a particular sound, one simply does not hear it in the
> speech of others. Most everyone at one time or another has had this
> experience: "But that's what I said! Ah non, monsieur. Mais certainment
> non. Écoutez et répétez après moi…" until finally you get within
> striking distance or your instructor gives up in desperation. It is for
> this reason i believe that some Americans do not hear the difference
> between war and wore, and do not hear the short-o of the what/pot group
> of words, sometimes assuming, even asserting, it does not exist.
>
> Oh,
> if you find such grumbling to be annoying, wait till the time comes
> when you shall wonder about your grandchildren' s pronunciation;
> and they yours.
>
> wondringly,
> dshep


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On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> Merry/marry are already accounted for with Air and Err (Urge or Her), since
> that distinction is clearer.

Not for me, since "air" is the sound in "Mary" but not in "merry" or
"marry", and "err" doesn't occur in any of the three words. (If it did
occur in a similar word, it might be spelled "murry", perhaps meaning
someone who tends to murr a lot, whatever that might mean.)

> There has to be a line in the sand, and I draw
> it at or/oar, as there would be *no* way to explain it to the non-linguist
> or even myself in a convincing way, and would only slow down writing: Bore?
> Boar?

Presumably because you don't make the distinction in your speech! (I
don't, either, and was rather surprised when I first learned that
there are people for whom "horse" and "hoarse" are not perfect
rhymes.)

> And which do I use for Lore? Core? War?

You'd have to look it up in a dictionary, if Shavian made those
distinctions -- just like people with pen/pin mergers do now, or those
with cot-caught mergers, etc. etc.

Or use spelling clues: Wikipedia says (s.v.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_r#Horse-hoarse_merger>)
-

"For the most part, the NORTH words are spelled with or followed by a
consonant (fork, horse, morning, north, York); the words or, for and
nor and all words spelled with war or quar (quarter, war, warm, warn)
also belong to this group. The FORCE words are usually spelled with
oar (board, coarse, hoarse), oor (door, floor), ore (bore, core,
more), and our (course, mourn, pour), and also many words with or
followed by another vowel (boring, glory)."

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Hi Star! Nice to see you Raven here again ... ;-)

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> Isn't English wonderful? No regular conjugation, random spelling
rules, and a pronunciation that can be like someone speaking Mandarin
to someone who only speaks Cantonese. Or worse, Swahili to Tagalog,
or Italian to Romanian.
>
> I am all for a /wh/ or /hw/ letter. I'll post my example, which has
Lol (elle, loo, whatever) and Oak, just for reference, then Yea, Woe,
and A letter I designated Which, as the /hw/ letter. [...]

Which to me seems to spell L-O-Y-W-Wh ... what English word is
that ...? I'm sorely puzzled! :-( Wholly swallowed by a black
hole ...


> I'd also like to take kind of an informal poll of we few shaw fans
of the sounds we absolutely have to have to make this into American
as well as still reflecting the speech of King George V.

If we *must* elect a representative Englishman, I'd much rather the
Shavian script reflect the pronunciation of, say, Michael Parkinson,
(or even David Beckham) than of a royal who came to power about 80
years ago! But surely the spirit of Shavian is that *all* varieties
of English speakers can spell their own speech as simply as possible -
not just some privileged Englishmen and Americans? Shaw's instincts
seem to me to have been thoroughly democratic.


> I would say that the only addition needed is the /hw/ sound.
>
> --Star

I'd say we need more than that: we need a letter for each distinct
phoneme in any distinct speech variety of English. This might well
see us adding letters for sounds unique to, say, Indian English,
Aboriginal English or Filipino English - provided those sounds occur,
within that English variety, in such contexts that its speakers
actually need a different letter to distinguish it from any other
letter. For example, we find that the cot/caught merger influences
many American speakers to the point they only need one vowel letter
between the 'c' and the 't', with the result that 'cot' and 'caught'
have become homophones for them; however, for most British &
Commonwealth English speakers, the words are not homophones.

(There is, of course, an essential sacrifice made by the speaker of
any dialect with such a merger in choosing Shavian: the two words can
no longer be distinguished in writing by their appearance, as all
their history has been stripped away.)

However, when it comes to /wh/, I'm not convinced that it IS
necessary. Is there anything amiss in analysing it as the
sequence /h/ plus /w/? Thinking back to the Great Vowel Shift
reminds me that many (almost all?) English /wh/ words originate in
Proto-Indo-European (PIE) /kw/ words. Traces of this origin
for "wheel" are evident in the Greek "cyclos" which later gave us, by
another path, "cycle". So I see this latest /wh/ -> /w/ shift as
just the final step in the gradual erosion of the initial velar
stop: /kw/ -> /hw/ -> /w/. For those of us with more conservative
(less evolved?) speech habits, we of course want to represent that
remaining aspiration in our own speech. But I'm not at all sure
that "wh" is anything different in pronunciation than /hw/. Are you?


Regards,
Yahya (also Raven)