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plIz woc jP speliN, ispeSali unstrest vQalz n kombinESanz wiH H letD
"R". "x" iz not pranQnst "er". HAt iz Just iNgliS speliN.


îœ"  
îœ"îœ" 
îœ"îœ`.
herasi iz H lFfblUd v riliJanz
.
   

îœ".
it iz fET HAt bigets heratiks.
.
   îœ"
  
îœ"îœ`
HX R nO herasIz in a ded riliJan.
--/ 
--/AndrE sMRes
...
  
  
  
 
îœ"  
 

--/ îœ"îœ"
it iz H kustamXi fEt v nV trMHz t bigin Az herasIz n t end Az
sMpDstiSanz. --/tomas huksli
...
  îœ'  
 
îœ" îœ' ,
 
îœ'   
îœ" 
 . --/
îœ"
if it wx an Rt t OvDkum herasi wiH fFD, H eksikjMSanDz wUd bI H mOst
lXnid doktDz on xT. --/mRtin lMTD

veri intrestiN!
Fv karektid jP speliN.

febrMXi ariJinali hAd 29 dEz.
.
but H /rOmAnz tUk wun from it t giv t JMlF (P "JalF"), sO HAt JalF, nEmd AftD (P in mF dFalekt: "YftD") /JMlias sIzD, wUd not bI infCiD t , Ygast nEmd AftD (YftD) /Ygustas sIzD.
.
--/lin JAnsan...9

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2) I am not at all sure that "Androcles" was being reasonable in writing words which end in consonantal sonorants ("button", "bottom", "bottle", "butter") with Ado+letter. Of course in the case of "butter" we have a ligature Array to write the pair with, but in the other cases I think the Ado should be abolished. I am considering making this change on the wiki, and hence in "Alice". If anyone would like to persuade me otherwise, please feel free.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In my opinion, you should keep the ados. Without "ado", the resulting combination of letters looks like a consonant cluster, when it isn't. Under a phonemic analysis, the schwa (ado-vowel) is there and will be pronounced by some speakers under some circumstances, and omitted by others, in others. The reason most of us pronounce a schwa in "happen" but usually not in "button" has to do only with the places of articulation of the consonants /p/ and /t/ in relation to /n/. The underlying phonemic structure is the same in each case.

A further problem: if we were to spell "lessen" as loll-egg-so-nun, adding the "-ing" ending would suddenly require "ado" to magically spring up from nowhere (loll-egg-so-ADO-nun-if-hung) because the standard pronunciation of "lessening" is three syllables, not two ("lessning"). Whether the second syllable contains a phonetically realised schwa, or whether it's simply a syllabic "n" is immaterial. Syllabic consonants in English are a phonetic realisation of a phonemic schwa-consonant sequence.

I believe following the cannon in this regard makes for a more "correctly spelled" text. Feel free to drop them if you want to save a few letters, or you want a more colloquial approach ... but if you omit "ado" where most of us pronounce a syllabic consonant, you may as well spell functional words with weak forms as they'd actually be pronounced in the sentence, not as their stressed pronunciation. (For example, if you spell "lessen" and "lesson" as loll-egg-so-nun, you may as well spell the "at" in "I'm at work" as ado-tot, and "for" in "It's for you" as fee-array.)

Reply | Forward Message #2836 of 2838 < Prev | Next >

Re: heresy





plIz woc jP speliN, ispeSali unstrest vQalz n kombinESanz wiH H letD

"R". "x" iz not pranQnst "er". HAt iz Just iNgliS speliN.[Or eNgliS?]



îœ"  

îœ"îœ" 

îœ"îœ`.

herasi iz H lFfblUd v riliJanz

.

   



îœ".

it iz fET HAt bigets heratiks.

.

   îœ"îœ


  

îœ"îœ`

HX R nO herasIz in a ded riliJan.

--/ 

--/AndrE sMRes

...

  

  

  

 

îœ"îœ—îœžîœ™îœ…îœ îœ  

 



--/ îœ"îœ"

it iz H kustamXi fEt v nV trMHz t bigin Az herasIz n t end Az

sMpDstiSanz. --/tomas huksli

...

  îœ'  

 

îœ" îœ'
,

 

îœ' îœŠîœ îœŽ 

îœ" 

 . --/

îœ"

if it wx an Rt t OvDkum herasi wiH fFD, H eksikjMSanDz wUd bI H mOst

lXnid doktDz on xT. --/mRtin lMTD





Fri Sep 4, 2009 9:06 pm



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Forward Message #2836 of 2838 < Prev | Next >

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heresy

heresi - 273.. . heresi iz H lFfblUd v reliJionz. . it iz fET HAt begets
heretiks. . Her R nO heresIz in a ded reliJion. --/AndrE suares ... it
iz H kustomari... r.teklund

Aug 22, 2009

1:44 pm

Re: heresy

plIz woc jP speliN, ispeSali unstrest vQalz n kombinESanz wiH H letD
"R". "x" iz not pranQnst "er". HAt iz Just iNgliS speliN. ... daru_andu

Sep 4, 2009

9:07 pm



Re: 29 dEz



veri intrestiN!

Fv karektid jP speliN.

febrMXi ariJinali hAd 29 dEz.

.

but H /rOmAnz tUk wun from it t giv t JMlF (P "JalF"), sO HAt JalF, nEmd
AftD (P

in mF dFalekt: "YftD") /JMlias sIzD, wUd not bI infCiD t , Ygast nEmd
AftD

(YftD) /Ygustas sIzD.

.

--/lin JAnsan...9

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''\
'''

Re: Alice and the Shavian wiki



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2) I am not at all sure that

"Androcles" was being reasonable in writing words which end in
consonantal

sonorants ("button", "bottom", "bottle", "butter") with Ado+letter. Of
course

in the case of "butter" we have a ligature Array to write the pair with,
but in

the other cases I think the Ado should be abolished. I am considering
making

this change on the wiki, and hence in "Alice". If anyone would like to
persuade

me otherwise, please feel free.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In my opinion, you should keep the ados. Without "ado", the resulting

combination of letters looks like a consonant cluster, when it isn't.
Under a

phonemic analysis, the schwa (ado-vowel) is there and will be pronounced
by some

speakers under some circumstances, and omitted by others, in others. The
reason

most of us pronounce a schwa in "happen" but usually not in "button" has
to do

only with the places of articulation of the consonants /p/ and /t/ in
relation

to /n/. The underlying phonemic structure is the same in each case.

A further problem: if we were to spell "lessen" as loll-egg-so-nun,
adding the

"-ing" ending would suddenly require "ado" to magically spring up from
nowhere

(loll-egg-so-ADO-nun-if-hung) because the standard pronunciation of
"lessening"

is three syllables, not two ("lessning"). Whether the second syllable
contains a

phonetically realised schwa, or whether it's simply a syllabic "n" is

immaterial. Syllabic consonants in English are a phonetic realisation of
a

phonemic schwa-consonant sequence.

I believe following the cannon in this regard makes for a more
"correctly

spelled" text. Feel free to drop them if you want to save a few letters,
or you

want a more colloquial approach ... but if you omit "ado" where most of
us

pronounce a syllabic consonant, you may as well spell functional words
with weak

forms as they'd actually be pronounced in the sentence, not as their
stressed

pronunciation. (For example, if you spell "lessen" and "lesson" as

loll-egg-so-nun, you may as well spell the "at" in "I'm at work" as
ado-tot, and

"for" in "It's for you" as fee-array.)





'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

TANk jM fOr jUr respons.

.

F waz beginiN t TiNk HAt everiwun in His grMp hAd given up ekspresiN
Hemselvz in H /rId\SY leterz.

.

F nO HAt som jMz Hem wen rFtiN wiH a pen Or pensil but F TYt HAt nIrli
everiwun desFded HAt tFpiN Hem waz Just tM inkonvenient--n bekYz v
komplEnts /johM stopd alQiN AniTiN eksept /itAliAn leterz in H mesaJ
sekSon--diskontinjMiN Her ric-tekst fIcur, eksept in H fFlz sekSon.

.

sins /britiS, /YstrElian, n /AmerikAn spIc R suc diferent lANgwaJez,
several jIrz agO F desided t nO loNger jMz H kombinESonz, but rAHer t
restrikt mFself t Just H OriJinal 40.

.

HIz 40 enEbel mI t kom fErli klOs t H prOnunsiESonz HAt R nAcural t mI;
eksept HAt F fFnd \R\ Izier t jMz HAn \or\.

.

F Am unEbel t tolerEt H /meriAm webster pronunsiESon v "utlAntik", but F
agrI wiH Her "Atlas" n "AtlAntean"; nOr dM F understAnd wF HE pronQns
"emfatik" Az "imfatik".

.

it seemz HAt mF hIriN iz les diskriminEtiN HAn jUrz: wOrker n wurkar dM
not sQnd Yl HAt diferent t mI.

.

n rAHer HAn "stAndard" speliN F prefer t spel mF On sQndz--HOz HAt sQnd
nAcural t mI.

.

At lIst HAt wE it iz mOr obvius hQ vErId Qr dFalekts R.

.

okEZonali somwun koments on mF speliN, but Ani koments abQt H
substans--H kontent-- v mF mesaJez iz veri, veri, ekstrImli rEr.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' /lin.

Hello,

Someone at

mgj971101@...

contacted me through this group, but my reply met with an
"Undeliverable Address" response.

try again,
dshep

...for maintenance. It was rather a memory hog because it cached all the transliterations while rendering. I could easily turn this off, but it would become very slow.

Ways forward: I would actually like to do the rendering in a separate script, so I wasn't writing it in MediaWiki and therefore PHP any more; I'd like it if it could render text taken from other sources than its own wiki, such as simple.wikipedia.org and en.wikisource.org; I'd like it if it could take pronunciations from another, less perfect source such as CMUdict where they weren't already supplied, except in wiki-building mode, and if it could make some attempt at automatic disambiguation. This is a medium-sized rewrite, though, but this may be a good excuse for it.

Three things I am considering in the meantime:

1. Who are the audience? There's the few but determined people who go to the Shavian wiki because they want to build a lexicon. I know a lot about that audience. But there are also people who want to read texts in Shavian or one of the other alphabets, or who want to transliterate text into Shavian or one of the other alphabets (even if only for a joke), or to learn about the alphabets. I'm not sure who or how many these people are, or how best to cater for them, or how best to attract the people who would like to know about the site but don't. For example, would people be better served having Shavian in one column and conventional spelling in the other, or would they prefer all Shavian all the way through? Would people like to be able to read Wikipedia in Shavian? It could easily be done once the transliteration script had been made separate from the wiki.

2. How do we store disambiguation information? At the moment we do this inline in the texts. I would like to find a way of separating the disambiguation data from the text itself, so that we could keep pristine copies of (say) the contents of en.wikisource and just add disambiguation notes to override automatic disambiguation (e.g. "read 'number' as nun+up+mime+array, not nun+up+mime+bib+array") in a separate place. (I'm talking about the back end here, not the user interface.) We could of course use character or lexeme offsets, but then we should consider what would happen if the text got updated. One possible option, which I tried with the "existing" system, is to store the position as the nth occurrence of a particular word.

3. How can we be most efficient? Caching makes everything faster, obviously, but also gives us a huge memory footprint. It would be possible to download the lexicon to a local copy every so often to make things faster. I'm also toying with the idea of storing each document as a series of word records, rather than as a single record, and doing the lookup on the database side using a left outer join.

Your thoughts are, as ever, welcomed.

I am currently writing a basic introduction to the Shavian alphabet. I want to include some basic aides-memoire to the shapes of the letters. Do you have any which help you, no matter how obvious?

I'm thinking of pointing out, among other things:

* the voiced/unvoiced consonant pairings
* obvious ligatures like IAN, YEW, and all the x+ROARs
* IF and OAK look like i and o
* TOT looks vaguely like t
* JUDGE is a ligature of TOT and SURE (and similarly for CHURCH)
* EAT is a double IF with a joining stroke, and is pronounced as a long IF
* ICE is a ligature of IF and ASH, which is also how it's pronounced
* AGE is a ligature of IF and EGG, which is also how it's pronounced
* LOLL and ROAR point (L)eft and (R)ight
* LOLL and ROAR can spell "roll" which looks like a ball rolling
* MIME and NUN can spell "moon" which looks like a mountain at night between clouds
* MIME and NUN can also spell "gnome" which looks like a little person
* YEA can spell "yay" which looks kind of like someone cheering with their arms in the air
* But WOE goes downwards, in a woeful kind of way
* HAHA is deep, like a ditch (a haha)
* VOW (which is paired with FEE) looks like an f
* VOW+ON, as in "volcano", make a curve like a mountain
* EGG+FEE, as in "eft", make a curve like a lizard
* AIR looks like a cloud
* EAR looks vaguely like an ear
* VOW looks like the curve of the arch of a viaduct
* KICK looks vaguely like a key
* PEEP looks vaguely like a pipe

I know some of these are tenuous, but they've helped me. Any more that you don't mind me including? I'd especially like to hear mnemonics about how to distinguish ASH.

Thomas

There has been a sudden surge of interest in an Ubuntu translation. Anyone else interested in helping out should join the group at
https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-en-shaw

Thank you!

Philip: do you think it might be possible to delegate ubuntu.shavian.org for a home page for this?

Thomas

I've written a gentle introduction to the Shavian alphabet, aimed approximately at middle-grade readers. The full text is at http://shavian.org.uk/learn/ , but not all the pictures have yet been added.

I would like to know what you think!

Thomas

Battle for Wesnoth is a popular free turn-based fantasy strategic game
developed by a worldwide community of volunteers. It's considered one of
the most polished free games available. It's under heavy active development
and available for Windows, MacOSX, and most Linux-based operating systems
(including Ubuntu).

http://www.wesnoth.org/

The next stable release, version 1.8, is being released in about a month
with full Shavian English translations thanks to the Ubuntu Shavian
Translation Team. A 7k version of the Andagii unicode-shavian font will be
included so anyone should be able to play in Shavian just by selecting it
from the list of available languages.

This may be a great way to practice using Shavian and can help spread it to
a larger audience!

We could use some help; many of the campaigns have a list of unique words
(mostly proper names) that need to be transliterated by hand. Anyone
familiar with the Shaw alphabet who has a text editor can help, it's really
quite easy. Generally only 5%-20% of the translated phrases contain a
unique word, though a campaign involving dwarves may contain a larger
number.

http://www.wesnoth.org/gettext/index.lang.php?lang=en@shaw&version=trunkshows
our progress. As you can see we have the game itself, the tutorial,
and several whole campaigns translated already - but there's much more to
go.

Volunteers get their name in the credit roll. Send me an off-list email and
I'll help you get started!