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--Thomas (2009.08.02) wrote (about 'Alice')
> 'If anyone would like to persuade me otherwise, please feel free."

Here is my take on this, though I don't know if it will persuade anyone:

Words such as 'button', 'bottle' etc. do not it is true contain a clearly distinguishable vowel in the final syllable; however, the pronunciation of these and similar words is still a two-step process: but-n. bot-l. If this is printed, in Shavian or the current alphabet,  as butn and botl, the final part looks like a consonant cluster such as, say, tr, bl, str, or any of the others--all of which are pronounced as a single sound: trap, black, stripe, flaps, spots, strength, etc. The impression given by the lack of a spacer is that somehow these too should be pronounced as a single sound, which in fact is impossible. Inserting, or rather, retaining the weak schwa vowel only indicates that these words consist of two syllables (or one and a half).

On the other hand there is a linguistic precedence for not doing so. The language the Aztecs spoke is always referred to as 'Nahautl', a three-syllable word. Our word for chocolate come from this language, where it is usually spelled 'chocolatl' (four syllables, with penultimate stress).

So, what it comes down to is what is to be considered more important: to demonstrate that the word in question is multi-syllable or to underscore the absence of a discernable vowel in a word-ending. If you have made the effort to bring this work into existence the decision should be yours. It might however be advisable to include in an introduction some note about this and the elimination of apostrophes in contractions.

good luck,
dshep

 

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 22:59, Thomas Thurman<tthurman@...> wrote:
> 2) I am not at all sure that "Androcles" was being reasonable in writing words which end in consonantal sonorants ("button", "bottom", "bottle", "butter") with Ado+letter.  Of course in the case of "butter" we have a ligature Array to write the pair with, but in the other cases I think the Ado should be abolished.  I am considering making this change on the wiki, and hence in "Alice".  If anyone would like to persuade me otherwise, please feel free.

That sounds fine to me in the case of /dn/ /tn/ as well as
combinations with /l/ as the second element, but I don't think that
"bottom" has a syllabic /m/ -- at least, not if /t/ is [t]. (If it's a
glottal stop, then I can imagine a syllabic /m/ after it.) I could
imagine a syllabic /m/ after a /p/ (homorganic nasal after stop) but I
can't think of a word that has a /pm/ combination off the top of my
head (the first word I thought of was "Clapham" but that has a schwa
in the final syllable, at least for, unlike -- say -- the German word
"Klappen", which is roughly [klapm=] for me; the -n assimilates to the
-p- and becomes syllabic [m=]). Nor can I think of a word with /kN/ or
/gN/, perhaps because final unstressed /N/ is usually preceded by /I/
in the -ing ending, rather than preceded by schwa.

As for "butter", I'd use the "array" ligature to indicate that there
is a rhotic component in rhotic 'lects and just a vowel in non-rhotic
lects.

> 3) GBS disliked using apostrophes within words such as "don't" in the Latin alphabet; it seems misplaced to keep them in the Shavian alphabet.  I am proposing removing them in the wiki, and hence in "Alice".  If anyone would like to persuade me otherwise, please feel free.

That seems fine to me. They're not pronounced, after all. Also get rid
of the apostrophes in possessives (John's; bottles') and in words such
as "o'clock".

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Apostrophes still seem useful to me. They represent a missing letter or
two in contractions. My understanding of their use in possessives is
that they represent the missing "e" in the genitive case ending, which
we stopped pronouncing quite awhile ago. I believe marking possessives
this way may help to avoid occasional ambiguity. Besides, it gives
nit-pickers a chance to rail against people who can't keep the
relatively simple rules for the apostrophe's use in their heads. :-)

Paige

Philip Newton wrote:
>
>
>
> > 3) GBS disliked using apostrophes within words such as "don't" in
> the Latin alphabet; it seems misplaced to keep them in the Shavian
> alphabet. I am proposing removing them in the wiki, and hence in
> "Alice". If anyone would like to persuade me otherwise, please feel free.
>
> That seems fine to me. They're not pronounced, after all. Also get rid
> of the apostrophes in possessives (John's; bottles') and in words such
> as "o'clock".
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@... <mailto:philip.newton%40gmail.com>>
>
>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 18:24, pgabhart<pgabhart@...> wrote:
>
> I believe marking possessives this way may
> help to avoid occasional ambiguity.

We do just fine without them in speech.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

rI: ir = not



wOrds R irelevAnt t prEr..

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

/JIzus blesd H pUr bekYz HE wer jMZjMali sinsIr n pFus; hI kondemd H ric
bekYz HE wer jMZjMali wonton n ireliJus.

.

hI wUd Ikwali kondem H ireliJus pYper n komend H konsekrEted n wOrSipful
mAn v welT.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''.

Further reflections upon the fate of swallowed syllables:

What about huntn an' fishn?

I have been led to believe that anyone who pronounces
huntin' as hunt-ing is not permitted to enter the woods
with a gun.

just wundrin'
dshep

If any of you use reddit.com, would you mind going to http://www.reddit.com/r/shavian/ and asking with the feedback button for it to be reinstated? They seem to think it's a spam thing.

Thomas

I don't use it, but I sent a note.

--Star

=========She's channeling the power of a god, you dolt. I'm wresting arcane energies from the very fabric of the universe. It's completely different!
--Mage Raistlin Majere, Dragonlance: the Movie


My LJ: http://wodentoad.livejournal.com
Or: http://community.livejournal.com/housewyfs_home/


>
>From: Thomas Thurman <tthurman@...>
>To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:54:10 PM
>Subject: [shawalphabet] Reddit
>
>
>If any of you use reddit.com, would you mind going to http://www.reddit. com/r/shavian/ and asking with the feedback button for it to be reinstated? They seem to think it's a spam thing.
>
>>Thomas
>
>
> > >

.Ygust 21st: y! hQ tFm flFz.

.

hIr wI R agAn komemOrEtiN H beginiN v H 4T epokal revelESon: H birT v
/JIzus:

.

Yl HAt nFt /mEri waz restles sO HAt nFHer v Hem slept muc.

.

bF H brEk v dE H pANz v cFldbirT wer wel in evidens, n At nMn, Ygust 21,
7 bI sI, wiH H help n kFnd ministrESonz v wimen felO trAvelerz, /mEri
waz deliverd v a mEl cFld.

.

/JIzus v /nAzareT waz bOrn intM H wOrld....

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

/lin JAnsen k\v

.

Consociation111@...

heresi - 273..

.

heresi iz H lFfblUd v reliJionz.

.

it iz fET HAt begets heretiks.

.

Her R nO heresIz in a ded reliJion.

--/AndrE suares

...

it iz H kustomari fEt v nM trMHz t begin Az heresIz n t end Az
sMperstiSonz. --/tomas huksli

...

if it wer An Rt t Overkom heresi wiH fFr, H eksekjMSonerz wUd bI H mOst
lerned doktOrz on erT. --/martin lMTer

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Consociation111@...





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