Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

And I think they would get the whole hearted support of all active
memebers.

--Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:

> Yes, if you look closely you will see that what Paul has posted is
> one of
> the first postings ever made in the old Shavian group. One of the
> 'gems' we
> definitely want to preserve at all costs. I suppose, correct me if
> I'm wrong
> Paul, that the idea was to "bring some of the old stuff into the new
> archive"?
>
>
>
> If I'm right in my assumption: no need to do it. I'm looking into
> ways of
> importing messages from one group to another, to mean that we don't
> have to
> rely on the old group for the message history. I doubt Yahoo would
> have any
> serious objections to the idea (if they could find any reason against
> they'd
> be being plain stubborn); after all it doesn't involve closing the
> old group
> or otherwise affecting it at all, therefore not at all "violating the
> rights
> of the administrator" (who wouldn't care anyway because he's been
> missing
> for nearly five years, before Yahoo even took eGroups over). It only
> involves a straight copy and paste of messages at their end.
>
>
>
> Hugh B
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com

Paul, Lionel, and others,

How many of these errors were included on the errata sheet?

I know that altho they caught it, there was no admission or correction for
the
clerical errors made in building the symbol-sound correspondence chart.

The spelling society used to send out free copies of Androcles & the Lion with
a 15 pound membership fee. We had 100 copies at one time. Now they are gone.

There are used copies of the book available thru Amazon or Barnes & Noble
for about $6.

I edit the Journal of the Simplified Spelling Society and I remember over ten
corrections being made to one page that contained two transcriptions of a
short paragraph of text. Sometimes the writer makes the error. Sometimes the
typesetter makes the error. It is extremely difficult to proof read if you are
not an expert in the transcription system.

After ten corrections and rewrites, I bet there were still a few errors we
did not catch.

When people send in articles written in an unknown or unfamiliar writing
system, it is next to impossible to proof read.

The spelling society wants to adopt a house style. I have said that the only
way this would be managable would be for people to submit a standard version
of their articles which could be run thru a spelling converter.

We have spelling converters for Unifon, Soundspel, IPA, and Truespel.
None of them are perfect yet.
I would be glad to build a converter for Shavian or Quickscript if there was
a demand for it.

It is a great learning device.
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/converters.htm


--Steve

Hi Lionel
I am surprised that there were so many typo's in just the first 13
pages, but I would be even more surprised if there were none.
Creating an entire Play in a new phonetic alphabet is a time
counsuming and painstaking process, that would inevitatably resault
in a few inconsequential errors. I just wish more copies of the Bi-
Alphabetic Androcles and the Lion were available.
Regards, Paul V.


From: "Lionel Ghoti" <ghoti@d...>
Date: Wed Mar 24, 1999 9:47 am
Subject: [shavian] Errors in Androcles

On a related matter, I said in my previous message that I thought
any major errors in the reading key could easily have been
corrected before _Androcles_ was published.

But that has made
me think of a number of errors in the Shavian text of _Androcles_
which I have spotted, which should have been picked up as
glaring mistakes by anyone copy-editing or proof-reading the
text of _Androcles_, as long as they were adequately familiar
with the alphabet, and as long as they weren't in a terrible hurry.

http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/den/shavian/errors.html

I assume the errors were duplicated in the Penguin paperback
edition. If someone with a paperback _Androcles_ cannot find
them, could you please let me know?

Here are some errors from the first few pages of _Androcles_:

Page 32, line 7 Roman: "pull" Error: pul Should be: pUl
Compare: page 32, line 6

Page 36, line 11 Roman: "good-looking" Error: /gUd-lUkiN
[Unnecessary namer dot]

Page 36, line 13 Roman: "centurion" Error: /sentjUDian
[Unnecessary namer dot] Compare: page 38, line 9

Page 44, line 4 Roman: "Lavinia" Error: /ravinia
Should be: /lavinia Compare: page 44, line 1


If there are such daft errors in just the first 13 Shavian pages of
_Androcles_, how highly should we regard the book as a model
of the Shavian alphabet?

Hey everyone!

My name is Bob Techau (TEE-SHAW). I am new to reaiding
Shavian. I have a passion for learning different languages, and I love
learning about different writing systems. For the past couple of
years, I wanted an alphabet in which worked as efficiently as short
hand. I tried learning short hand, I found it to be much to
complicated for usage in the English language. Then, I discovered the
Shavian alphabet on Yahoo! Linguistics page. I have found it to be
extremely useful. The roman alphabet works ok for english, but I kind
of think that we should have a secondary alphabet (similar to japan's
Kana) that is a Syllabary alphabet. Anyhow, I would like some practice
with reading, so if everyone have the shavian fonts, lets practice
together! LOL

Yahoo! ID: bob_number_2

Thanks for reading!
Bobb

FÖNETIK ŸLFABET
Mike Nasau mikenassau@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/mikenassau/Diacrits.htm
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/fonetik-alfabet.htm
foUnetik aUf&bet in IPA
foh-NET-ik owl-fuh-bet Dr. Seuss
fOnetik AUlfabet - Shaw fOnetik qlfcbet - Unifon
The phonology above is somewhat suspect. Webster would pronouince the words
fuh-NET-ik ALF-uh-bet Dr. Seuss
f&'net-ik 'alf-&-bet Webster
in Webster's notation www.m-w.com
fanetik Alfabet - Shaw fcnetik alfcbet - Unifon
There need not be a debate about the pronunciation - check the dictionary.
Debates should be limited to the rare cases where dictionaries disagree.
This short excursion into phonemic representation points up
two problems: People do not agree about pronunciation or the most
appropriate code to represent it.
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/dictionary-key.htm

There are hundreds of ways to regularize English. The first task for any
proposed phonetic alphabet is to explain why it is superior to the ones already
available in most dictionaries. Why is Fönetik better than IPA or Webster's
diacritic scheme? Why is it better than these two alternatives?
Ther àr hundreds uv wáyz tú regyúlàríz Énglish. TH nótáshen
Ther är hundredz uv wëz tu reyülarïz Ïnglish. Fönetik nötëshun

Der or hundredz uv wAz tU regyUlarIz EngliS.
DER OR HUNDREDS UV WAZ TU REGYULARIZ ENGLIS. Unifon
Three other proposals for regularizing English are found at the bottom of the
page. All such proposals are more phonemic than traditional spelling,
however, they are rarely 100% phonemic. To duplicate the speed at which written
Spanish is acquired, the notation needs to be about 85% phonemic. Spanglish
achieves a rating of about 86% and Unifon about 99%. My guess is that Nasau's
Fönetik is close to Unifon in terms of phonemicity.
Using this alphabet, when you hear a word, you will know how to spell it, and
when you see a word, you will know how to pronounce it (except for stress).
This makes teaching and learning to read and write much easier than the present
orthography. Only familiar letters are used, with either an Umlaut (two dots)
or a Macron (a short line) over some vowels to make enough symbols for the
twelve different vowel sounds of English.

Saundspellers,

There is a keyboard standard for Shavian.
Not a particularly readable one [see below] but a standard.
The Unifon keyboard allows easier word recognition.

Is there a preferred font?
Has anyone done a comparative study of the various attempts to digitize the
shaw font?
I used to think that Lionspaw was quite adequate.
Now I hesitate to designate the font in a Shaw transcription.
--Steve
Phil Newton wrote ['99 archive]: I claim the privilege of answering the
query on how to pronounce "dour" and "doer", "boor" and "booer". I was born in
Germany of a British father and German mother and acquired traits of an American
accent through school; however, I dare say I can speak British well enough if
occasion demands, since that is the accent I spoke when I was a child (and
even now, when I'm around my father).

I pronounce "dour" and "boor" (and "poor") with the "oo" in "wool"
(and in one syllable), whereas "doer" and "booer" (and, if you
want, "pooer") have the "oo" in "ooze" (and have two syllables).
Hence, I suppose I would write "dour" as dead+wool+array and "doer"
as dead+ooze+err.

Cheers,
Philip
TS SAMPA Webster Shavian Unifon
dour dUr dU& du&r daur dUD dCcr
boor bUr bU& bur <boer> bUr bCr
boar boUr b&U& bOr
poor pUr pU& pur pOr pUD pCr pCcr/pOr
poorer pU&r pu&r pUD? Pcrcr
doer dU&r du&r dUD dCcr

Unifon converter: www.unifon.org Webster: www.m-w.com

Rosetta Stone for 3 codes and 2 keyboards

http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian16.gif

Tricodal Transcription:
H /lPd iz mF SepDd; keyboard Shaw
Dc /lxrd iz mI Sepcrd keyboard Unifon
D3 *L^RD IZ MÍ SEP3RD simulated display Unifon
Ð Lord iz mý shepèrd - ANCI FANCI
All three transcriptions are equally phonemic or nearly so. AF can get a
little sloppy since the unstressed e and a are not always marked. The last one
{AF} retains traditional upper case letters and traditional digraphs such as sh
and ch. The first two notations are unigraphic. Unifon also has unigraphic
diphthongs.

F SAl nyt wYnt. keyboard Shaw
I Sal not wxnt. keyboard Unifon
Í shal nöt [nät] wont - ANCI FANCI

hI mEkaT mI t lF dQn in grIn pAscDz: keyboard Shaw
hE mAkcT mE tU lI dqn in grEn pasCcrz: keyboard Unifon
hé máketh mé tú lý daun in grén pascherz: - ANCI FANCI

hI lIdaT mI bIsFd H stil wYtDz.
hE lEdcT mE bEsId D stil wxtcr.
hé lédeth mé bésýd ð stil woter. [schwi = é unstressed & short]

hI rIstPaT mF sOl:
hE rEstxT mI sOl:
hé restoth mý sól:

hI lIdaT mI in H pAHz v rFcasnas
hE lEdcT mE in Dc paDz uv rIKcsncs
hé lédeth mé in ðè paðz uv rýchesnes

fP hiz nEmz sEk. keyboard Shaw
fOr hiz nAmz sAk. keyboard Unifon
for hiz námz sák. - ANCI FANCI

ANCI FANCI uses Latin 1 characters available on the International Keyboard.

Hi Bob T.
Welcome to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum.
We not only discuss and teach people how to use the Shaw Alphabet
better, but we have a number of links to different facilities to
give your more background to the Shaw Alphabet.
All of these facilities can be accessed by going to
www.shavian.org
From there you can download various Shaw Fonts, and there is an
IKONBOARD where you can post messages in Shavian.
On the Ikonboard option, is an option to download the preferred font
for the Ikonboard.
If you like I can start a new topic their to get you going.
Or you can just reply to any of the ongoing posts in the Shaw
portion of the Ikonboard forum.
Take a look. I will put something out there for you to reply to.
It will saw Bob T. in the Topic Line.
Let me know if you any trouble finding it.
Let me know if you have any other questions.

Always nice to another person join the Shavian Alphabet Forum.
Regards, Paul V.

__________________________attached________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Bobb(y) Techau"
<bob_number_2@h...> wrote:
> Hey everyone!
> My name is Bob Techau (TEE-SHAW). I am new to reaiding
> Shavian. I have a passion for learning different languages, and I
love > learning about different writing systems. For the past couple
of years, I wanted an alphabet in which worked as efficiently as
shorthand. I tried learning short hand, I found it to be much to
complicated for usage in the English language. Then, I discovered the
> Shavian alphabet on Yahoo! Linguistics page. I have found it to be
> extremely useful. The roman alphabet works ok for english, but I
kind
> of think that we should have a secondary alphabet (similar to
japan's
> Kana) that is a Syllabary alphabet. Anyhow, I would like some
practice
> with reading, so if everyone have the shavian fonts, lets practice
> together! LOL
> Thanks for reading!
> Bobb

Hi Bob
When you go www.shavian.org you will see the new Shaw Forum
where you can write in the Shavian Script. It is called
NEW Hugh Birkenhead's Shavian Forums and it takes you to this URL

http://www.shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob T.
> Welcome to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum.
> We not only discuss and teach people how to use the Shaw Alphabet
> better, but we have a number of links to different facilities to
> give your more background to the Shaw Alphabet.
> All of these facilities can be accessed by going to
> www.shavian.org
> From there you can download various Shaw Fonts, and there is an
> IKONBOARD where you can post messages in Shavian.
> On the Ikonboard option, is an option to download the preferred
font
> for the Ikonboard.
> If you like I can start a new topic their to get you going.
> Or you can just reply to any of the ongoing posts in the Shaw
> portion of the Ikonboard forum.
> Take a look. I will put something out there for you to reply to.
> It will saw Bob T. in the Topic Line.
> Let me know if you any trouble finding it.
> Let me know if you have any other questions.
>
> Always nice to another person join the Shavian Alphabet Forum.
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> __________________________attached________________________
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Bobb(y) Techau"
> <bob_number_2@h...> wrote:
> > Hey everyone!
> > My name is Bob Techau (TEE-SHAW). I am new to reaiding
> > Shavian. I have a passion for learning different languages, and I
> love > learning about different writing systems. For the past
couple
> of years, I wanted an alphabet in which worked as efficiently as
> shorthand. I tried learning short hand, I found it to be much to
> complicated for usage in the English language. Then, I discovered
the
> > Shavian alphabet on Yahoo! Linguistics page. I have found it to be
> > extremely useful. The roman alphabet works ok for english, but I
> kind
> > of think that we should have a secondary alphabet (similar to
> japan's
> > Kana) that is a Syllabary alphabet. Anyhow, I would like some
> practice
> > with reading, so if everyone have the shavian fonts, lets practice
> > together! LOL
> > Thanks for reading!
> > Bobb

In Stage Irish accent...
If I'd-a noon you were koomin', I'd-a lit a foyer in de foyer foyer.

So, beyond the standard pronunciations, there are accents, and other
localizations that indicate speech communities, presenting
challenges to sound font solutions.

Does anyone remember Lionel and his Ghoti Fish program? It maps
sound samples (wavs) onto a shavian keyboard....a talking
typewriter. How well it maps to IPA I dunno.

Anyone know who what where is Lionel Ghoti?

Cheers All
Dan

An older person of hard working British extraction intimately familar
with the Shavian Alphabet, Kingsley Read and George Bernard Shaw.
Apparently a Computer Hacker of the old school. Technically competent
on the Internet.
He seems to have created this forum and rallied a number of like
minded souls to support and nuture the Shaw Alphabet on the Internet.
Gone, but not departed.
Hats off, to Mister Fish.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I suspect Dr Richmond, knows more. Care to chip in a facts, sir.
____________________attached_______________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "alkunha" <helloworld@o...>
wrote:
>
> In Stage Irish accent...
> If I'd-a noon you were koomin', I'd-a lit a foyer in de foyer foyer.
>
> So, beyond the standard pronunciations, there are accents, and
other
> localizations that indicate speech communities, presenting
> challenges to sound font solutions.
>
> Does anyone remember Lionel and his Ghoti Fish program? It maps
> sound samples (wavs) onto a shavian keyboard....a talking
> typewriter. How well it maps to IPA I dunno.
>
> Anyone know who what where is Lionel Ghoti?
>
> Cheers All
> Dan

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Wed Mar 31, 1999 2:58 pm
Subject: [shavian] Abbreviations

hF evDIwun

hQ R abrIviESanz t bI rendDd in /SEvWn? Az H /SEvWn letDz kPaspondiN
t H /iNliS letDz, P Az H iniSal letDz v H wxdz speld in /SEvWn? fP
agzympl, asVm "UHM" iz H abrIviESan fP H "/unwoSt /hVman /mAsiz". iz
H /SEvWn abrIviESan "/uhm" (P "/u/h/m") fP "/unwoSt /hVman /mAsiz"
P "/V/h/m" fP "UHM"?

wot abQt Akranimz HAt R prOnQnst Az wxdz? iz CMOS "/k/m/o/s"
fP "/komplimentDi /metal /oksFd on /Silikon" or "/sImos" fP "see-
moss"? (n hQ meni nEmD dots?)

jUDz /SEvWnli,
/filip

How are abbreviations to be rendered in Shavian? As the Shavian
letters corresponding to the English letters, or as the initial
letters of the words spelled in Shavian? For example, assume "UHM"
is the abbreviation for the "Unwashed Human Masses". Is the Shavian
abbreviation "up-haha-mime" for "Unwashed Human Masses" or "yew-haha-
mime" for "UHM"?

What about acronyms that are pronounced as words? Is CMOS "kick-mime-
on-so" for "Complementary Metal Oxide on Silicon" or "so-eat-mime-on-
so" for "see-moss"? (And how many namer dots?)

Yours Shavianly,

Philip