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Hi Steve
I noticed a discrepancy.
It appears that this I.T.A. Orthography has 42 Phonograms, whereas the
original Pitman's I.T.A. had 44 letters.
Is this a revised version of the original I.T.A. Alphabet?
Regards, Paul V.

At 02:11 PM 12/4/04, you wrote:

>Sound-Spellers:
>
>Does anyone here have any trouble figuring out New Spelling and the i/t/a?
>It is quite similar to many of the orthographies posted on Saundspel.
>The authors of these new alpabets often say they were not influenced by
>New Spelling. This is probably true since except for a few sound signs -
>the basic code is based on the most frequent spelling patterns in written
>English. It is a consensus alphabet according to a 1980 study by Traeger.
>
>I would like to add at least 3 other ways to spell the vowels and 1 other
>way to spell consonants in the chart. Along with the frequencies. Tom
>could calculate this for each sound sign except schwa. See
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Steve%20Bett/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/Polyvalence.htm>
>Polyvalence
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Steve%20Bett/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/uu-29ways.htm>/u:/
>18 ways
>
> The initial teaching alphabet or i/t/a
>
>37df79.jpg
>The i/t/a is based on the consensus alphabet for English. By using
>ligatures on the key caps, it manages to retain the look of a digrahic
>code with uni-graphs.
>
>A ae-Mae, a-at
>E ee-eve, e-end
> I ie-eye, i-it /aI/
>O oe-oat, o-odd
>au au-taut, au-cost, moss
> a aa-ah, ar-are
>U uu-boot, u-up, ue-feud
> oo-foot (fwt)
>ur ur-urge, *er-surfer
>oi oi-oyster,
>ou ou-out
>
>wh when
>dh then th thin
>ng ng-king Traeger, 1980
>
>SB: I think the consensus is conditioned by familiarity with New
>Spelling. In 1881, E. Jones published in the Spelling Experimenter a
>slightly different set of choices: A vowel not followed by a consonant has
>its long or name sound. Jones' scheme was similar to ALC Soundspel: open
>vowels ay e y o u oy aw ow
>
>The i/t/a studies in the 1960's showed that just transcribing the basal
>reader accelerated literacy in the phonemic code. i/t/a students
>completed 4 transcribed readers twice as fast as students in the control
>group. The basal reader approach was designed to teach word-signs not
>sound-signs. It would not be unexpected that as much as 40% of the
>students never over-learned the sound-signs. While students learned word
>patterns, as much as 40% of the i/t/a students never over-learned the
>i/t/a sound signs.
>
>Any simple code can be over-learned in 3 months and with this foundation
>the more difficult polyvalent code can be learned quicker. ... After one
>year in the accelerated WTR program, the students in one study were
>reading at a 3rd grade level. The bicodal approach allowed them to skip 2
>years of schooling.
>
>New pages on the i/t/a at <http://www.foolswisdom.com>www.foolswisdom.com:
>
>
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Steve%20Bett/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/ita1.htm>ita-1
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Steve%20Bett/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/ita-eval.htm>i/t/a-evaluation
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Steve%20Bett/My%20Documents/My%20Webs/ita-radio.htm>ita-radio
>
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Paul,

If you go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ita1.htm
I think you will find the answer to your question.

The i.t.a. has 44 phonograms for 42 phonemes.
My chart merges the duplicates k/c, z/mirrored z,
If you subtract these two duplicate ways of representation
your phonogram inventory goes from 44 to 42.

So it is a revision of the chart below, but not a revision of the orthography.

Pitman's Original Chart

Hi Steve,

I noticed a discrepancy.
It appears that this I.T.A. Orthography has 42 Phonograms, whereas the
original Pitman's I.T.A. had 44 letters. Is this a revised version of the original
I.T.A. Alphabet?

Regards, Paul V.

At 02:11 PM 12/4/04, you wrote:

Sound-Spellers:

Does anyone here have any trouble figuring out New Spelling and the i/t/a? It
is quite similar to many of the orthographies posted on Saundspel.

The authors of these new alpabets often say they were not influenced by New
Spelling. This is probably true since except for a few sound signs - the basic
code is based on the most frequent spelling patterns in written English. It
is a consensus alphabet according to a 1980 study by Traeger.

I would like to add at least 3 other ways to spell the vowels and 1 other way
to spell consonants in the chart. Along with the frequencies. Tom could
calculate this for each sound sign except schwa. See Polyvalence /u:/ 18 ways

i/t/a©
42 Phonemes - 44 Phonograms - redundant k/c and z/z
www.foolswisdon.com/~sbett/ita-alfa2.jpg


The i/t/a is based on the consensus alphabet for English. By using ligatures
on the key caps, it manages to retain the look of a digrahic code with
uni-graphs.

A ae-Mae, a-at
E ee-eve, e-end
I ie-eye, i-it /aI/
O oe-oat, o-odd
au au-taut, au-cost, moss
a aa-ah, ar-are
U uu-boot, u-up, ue-feud
oo-foot (fwt)
ur ur-urge, *er-surfer
oi oi-oyster,
ou ou-out

wh when
dh then th thin
ng ng-king Traeger, 1980

SB: I think the consensus is conditioned by familiarity with New Spelling.
In 1881, E. Jones published in the Spelling Experimenter a slightly different
set of choices: A vowel not followed by a consonant has its long or name sound.
Jones' scheme was similar to ALC Soundspel: open vowels ay e y o u oy aw ow

The i/t/a studies in the 1960's showed that just transcribing the basal
reader accelerated literacy in the phonemic code. i/t/a students completed 4
transcribed readers twice as fast as students in the control group. The basal
reader approach was designed to teach word-signs not sound-signs. It would not be
unexpected that as much as 40% of the students never over-learned the
sound-signs. While students learned word patterns, as much as 40% of the i/t/a
students never over-learned the i/t/a sound signs.

Any simple code can be over-learned in 3 months and with this foundation the
more difficult polyvalent code can be learned quicker. ... After one year in
the accelerated WTR program, the students in one study were reading at a 3rd
grade level. The bicodal approach allowed them to skip 2 years of schooling.

New pages on the i/t/a at http://www.foolswisdom.com/:

ita-1 i/t/a-evaluation ita-radio


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett

Hugh,

Where do you get that idea?
The moderator can banish people and some have exercised that ability.
One group banished a member for posting too many messages.
I banish people who post off topic messages (spam).

I think it would be a good idea for you to select a co-moderator.
See if you can find someone to volunteer.

I told Dshep that I didn't think that it was possible for him to be banished
from the Shavian group since there is no moderator.

--Steve
Steve - I still get the feeling you think of me as an autocratic overlord of
the shawalphabet group, with powers to banish people I don't like. YOU can
be a moderator at the click of a mouse. Let me know if you want to be and
I'll make you one. Then you can banish ME if you like. :)


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
sbett@... 512-302-3014 www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel-The Phonology Forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

Steve



At present Philip Newton is a second moderator. He can do most everything I
can. If we want to nominate a third, let's do it.



I don't expect there to be ANY circumstances where members would be banned
from this group, unless they are obviously spammers. The old group
functioned perfectly without any other sorts of bans, so that's exactly how
this one can work too. This basically means, the only thing I care to do as
a moderator to do is keep the vault organized (the last group's vault was a
complete mess) - I'll leave censorship of free speech to the government!



Hugh B



_____

From: stbetta@... [mailto:stbetta@...]
Sent: 04 January 2005 07:41
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] RE: [shavian] Re: more on mapping



Hugh,



Where do you get that idea?
The moderator can banish people and some have exercised that ability.

One group banished a member for posting too many messages.
I banish people who post off topic messages (spam).



I think it would be a good idea for you to select a co-moderator.

See if you can find someone to volunteer.



I told Dshep that I didn't think that it was possible for him to be banished
from the Shavian group since there is no moderator.



--Steve

Steve - I still get the feeling you think of me as an autocratic overlord of
the shawalphabet group, with powers to banish people I don't like. YOU can
be a moderator at the click of a mouse. Let me know if you want to be and
I'll make you one. Then you can banish ME if you like. :)




Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
sbett@... 512-302-3014
<file:///C:\Documents%2520and%2520Settings\Steve%2520Bett\My%2520Documents\M
y%2520Webs\www.foolswisdom.com\~sbett> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel-The Phonology Forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel



_____

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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

Hi Steve

I quess that makes sense.
Although, I would have just called them letters instead of
Phonograms. In my opinion
The original chart with 44 letters was clearer.
The only problem was both of the a letters in the Diagram,
are described as be pronounced as "ah".
I am presuming that the rounder one is a broad "a" and the regular
looking "a" is pronounced like the "a" in Cat.
What are their equivalent Keyboard letters.
Please confirm?
What letter would you use to write a Schwa?

Regards, Paul V.


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Paul,
>
> If you go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ita1.htm
> I think you will find the answer to your question.
>
> The i.t.a. has 44 phonograms for 42 phonemes.
> My chart merges the duplicates k/c, z/mirrored z,
> If you subtract these two duplicate ways of representation
> your phonogram inventory goes from 44 to 42.
>
> So it is a revision of the chart below, but not a revision of the
orthography.
>
> Pitman's Original Chart
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I noticed a discrepancy.
> It appears that this I.T.A. Orthography has 42 Phonograms, whereas
the
> original Pitman's I.T.A. had 44 letters. Is this a revised version
of the original
> I.T.A. Alphabet?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> At 02:11 PM 12/4/04, you wrote:
>
> Sound-Spellers:
>
> Does anyone here have any trouble figuring out New Spelling and the
i/t/a? It
> is quite similar to many of the orthographies posted on Saundspel.
>
> The authors of these new alpabets often say they were not
influenced by New
> Spelling. This is probably true since except for a few sound
signs - the basic
> code is based on the most frequent spelling patterns in written
English. It
> is a consensus alphabet according to a 1980 study by Traeger.
>
> I would like to add at least 3 other ways to spell the vowels and 1
other way
> to spell consonants in the chart. Along with the frequencies. Tom
could
> calculate this for each sound sign except schwa. See
Polyvalence /u:/ 18 ways
>
> i/t/a©
> 42 Phonemes - 44 Phonograms - redundant k/c and z/z
> www.foolswisdon.com/~sbett/ita-alfa2.jpg
>
>
> The i/t/a is based on the consensus alphabet for English. By using
ligatures
> on the key caps, it manages to retain the look of a digrahic code
with
> uni-graphs.
>
> A ae-Mae, a-at
> E ee-eve, e-end
> I ie-eye, i-it /aI/
> O oe-oat, o-odd
> au au-taut, au-cost, moss
> a aa-ah, ar-are
> U uu-boot, u-up, ue-feud
> oo-foot (fwt)
> ur ur-urge, *er-surfer
> oi oi-oyster,
> ou ou-out
>
> wh when
> dh then th thin
> ng ng-king Traeger, 1980
>
> SB: I think the consensus is conditioned by familiarity with New
Spelling.
> In 1881, E. Jones published in the Spelling Experimenter a slightly
different
> set of choices: A vowel not followed by a consonant has its long or
name sound.
> Jones' scheme was similar to ALC Soundspel: open vowels ay e y o u
oy aw ow
>
> The i/t/a studies in the 1960's showed that just transcribing the
basal
> reader accelerated literacy in the phonemic code. i/t/a students
completed 4
> transcribed readers twice as fast as students in the control
group. The basal
> reader approach was designed to teach word-signs not sound-signs.
It would not be
> unexpected that as much as 40% of the students never over-learned
the
> sound-signs. While students learned word patterns, as much as 40%
of the i/t/a
> students never over-learned the i/t/a sound signs.
>
> Any simple code can be over-learned in 3 months and with this
foundation the
> more difficult polyvalent code can be learned quicker. ... After
one year in
> the accelerated WTR program, the students in one study were reading
at a 3rd
> grade level. The bicodal approach allowed them to skip 2 years of
schooling.
>
> New pages on the i/t/a at http://www.foolswisdom.com/:
>
> ita-1 i/t/a-evaluation ita-radio
>
>
> Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
> Austin, Texas
> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett

Hi Hugh
I have a lot to learn about the Web-site, but
I wouldn't mind becoming an apprentice moderator.
Right now, I have trouble moderating my own opinions, much
less moderate the extreme opinions of the other fanatics.

Every day, when I roll out of the right side of my bed,
before I arise from the prone position, I thank G-d for letting
me survive another night, and vow that I will not be a fanatic,
no matter what the provocation, but before the day is half done,
I have lost my cool, and am thinking strongly about the benefits of
random euthanasia. (too hard to determine blame)
But with time and practise, I expect to moderate discussions with the
best of them.
Please consider my application, if ever, Philip becomes really
disenheartened by the
incessent bickering that has become our lot.

Fond REGARDS, Paul V.

_____________________attached_________________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> Steve
> At present Philip Newton is a second moderator. He can do most
everything I
> can. If we want to nominate a third, let's do it.
>
> I don't expect there to be ANY circumstances where members would be
banned
> from this group, unless they are obviously spammers. The old group
> functioned perfectly without any other sorts of bans, so that's
exactly how
> this one can work too. This basically means, the only thing I care
to do as
> a moderator to do is keep the vault organized (the last group's
vault was a
> complete mess) - I'll leave censorship of free speech to the
government!
>
>
>
> Hugh B
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: stbetta@a... [mailto:stbetta@a...]
> Sent: 04 January 2005 07:41
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] RE: [shavian] Re: more on mapping
>
>
>
> Hugh,
>
>
>
> Where do you get that idea?
> The moderator can banish people and some have exercised that
ability.
>
> One group banished a member for posting too many messages.
> I banish people who post off topic messages (spam).
>
>
>
> I think it would be a good idea for you to select a co-moderator.
>
> See if you can find someone to volunteer.
>
>
>
> I told Dshep that I didn't think that it was possible for him to be
banished
> from the Shavian group since there is no moderator.
>
>
>
> --Steve
>
> Steve - I still get the feeling you think of me as an autocratic
overlord of
> the shawalphabet group, with powers to banish people I don't like.
YOU can
> be a moderator at the click of a mouse. Let me know if you want to
be and
> I'll make you one. Then you can banish ME if you like. :)
>
>
>
>
> Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
> Austin, Texas
> sbett@l... 512-302-3014
> <file:///C:\Documents%2520and%2520Settings\Steve%2520Bett\My%
2520Documents\M
> y%2520Webs\www.foolswisdom.com\~sbett> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
> retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
> moderator of Saundspel-The Phonology Forum
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date:
30/12/2004

Of course Paul - you spend far more time in this group and in the forum than
I do.

No application necessary - you're hired :) Moderator privileges assigned.

Hugh B

> -----Original Message-----
> From: paul vandenbrink [mailto:pvandenbrink@...]
> Sent: 05 January 2005 21:07
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shawalphabet] On the benefits of Moderation
>
>
>
> Hi Hugh
> I have a lot to learn about the Web-site, but
> I wouldn't mind becoming an apprentice moderator.
> Right now, I have trouble moderating my own opinions, much
> less moderate the extreme opinions of the other fanatics.
>
> Every day, when I roll out of the right side of my bed,
> before I arise from the prone position, I thank G-d for letting
> me survive another night, and vow that I will not be a fanatic,
> no matter what the provocation, but before the day is half done,
> I have lost my cool, and am thinking strongly about the benefits of
> random euthanasia. (too hard to determine blame)
> But with time and practise, I expect to moderate discussions with the
> best of them.
> Please consider my application, if ever, Philip becomes really
> disenheartened by the
> incessent bickering that has become our lot.
>
> Fond REGARDS, Paul V.
>
> _____________________attached_________________________________
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
> <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > Steve
> > At present Philip Newton is a second moderator. He can do most
> everything I
> > can. If we want to nominate a third, let's do it.
> >
> > I don't expect there to be ANY circumstances where members would be
> banned
> > from this group, unless they are obviously spammers. The old group
> > functioned perfectly without any other sorts of bans, so that's
> exactly how
> > this one can work too. This basically means, the only thing I care
> to do as
> > a moderator to do is keep the vault organized (the last group's
> vault was a
> > complete mess) - I'll leave censorship of free speech to the
> government!
> >
> >
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: stbetta@a... [mailto:stbetta@a...]
> > Sent: 04 January 2005 07:41
> > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] RE: [shavian] Re: more on mapping
> >
> >
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> >
> >
> > Where do you get that idea?
> > The moderator can banish people and some have exercised that
> ability.
> >
> > One group banished a member for posting too many messages.
> > I banish people who post off topic messages (spam).
> >
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a good idea for you to select a co-moderator.
> >
> > See if you can find someone to volunteer.
> >
> >
> >
> > I told Dshep that I didn't think that it was possible for him to be
> banished
> > from the Shavian group since there is no moderator.
> >
> >
> >
> > --Steve
> >
> > Steve - I still get the feeling you think of me as an autocratic
> overlord of
> > the shawalphabet group, with powers to banish people I don't like.
> YOU can
> > be a moderator at the click of a mouse. Let me know if you want to
> be and
> > I'll make you one. Then you can banish ME if you like. :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
> > Austin, Texas
> > sbett@l... 512-302-3014
> > <file:///C:\Documents%2520and%2520Settings\Steve%2520Bett\My%
> 2520Documents\M
> > y%2520Webs\www.foolswisdom.com\~sbett> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
> > retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
> > moderator of Saundspel-The Phonology Forum
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date:
> 30/12/2004
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ita1.htm

Paul,

Paul wrote:
The original chart with 44 letters was clearer.
The only problem was both of the a letters in the Diagram,
are described as be pronounced as "ah".
I am presuming that the rounder one is a broad "a" and the regular looking
"a" is pronounced like the "a" in Cat.
What are their equivalent Keyboard letters.
Please confirm?
What letter would you use to write a Schwa?

Regards, Paul V.



The first "ah" should be ash. /æ/, the second is /ä/.
This may have been my mistake since it appears that Pitman's keyword was
"apple"
In my chart I used add.

There is no digital i/t/a font so there is not keyboard issue.
New Spelling did not have a unique symbol for schwa and neither does the
i/t/a.

ago was spelled agoe.
sofa spawas spelled soefa spa

i/t/a transcription IPA broad transcription




Typically, the unstressed vowel is spelled the same way as it is in tradspel.

Pitman listed the unaffected sound signs first and then the ones that are
modified.
I listed the phonograms in alphabetical order.
You say you prefer Pitman's arrangement.
There has been no research as to which one is better for readers and writers.

I like to separate vowels and consonants as in this chart for Spanglish:

www.foolwisdom.com/~sbett/spanglish.htm



Do you like this arragement?

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:

> Paul,

> If you go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ita1.htm
> I think you will find the answer to your question.

> The i.t.a. has 44 phonograms for 42 phonemes.
> My chart merges the duplicates k/c, z/mirrored z,
> If you subtract these two duplicate ways of representation
> your phonogram inventory goes from 44 to 42.

> So it is a revision of the chart below, but not a revision of the
orthography.

> Pitman's Original Chart

> Hi Steve,

> I noticed a discrepancy.
> It appears that this I.T.A. Orthography has 42 Phonograms, whereas the
> original Pitman's I.T.A. had 44 letters. Is this a revised version
of the original I.T.A. Alphabet?
>
> Regards, Paul V.

-------
Does anyone here have any trouble figuring out New Spelling and the
i/t/a? It is quite similar to many of the orthographies posted on Saundspel.

The authors of these new alpabets often say they were not
influenced by New Spelling. This is probably true since except for a few
sound
signs - the basic code is based on the most frequent spelling patterns in
written
English. It is a consensus alphabet according to a 1980 study by Traeger.

I would like to add at least 3 other ways to spell the vowels and 1
other way to spell consonants in the chart. Along with the frequencies. Tom
could calculate this for each sound sign except schwa. See Polyvalence.htm


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:

> Certainly no one in this group have been
> deterred, because we are actively interested,
> perhaps even fascinated by Shavian, and need
> no encouragement. I was thinking of everyone
> else, whether they be indifferent, amused, or
> hostile to the idea of learning a new alphabet,
> and who obviously haven't. The number of people
> today who can read or write a sentence in
> Shavian could probably fit into a small room.

People who are that hostile about it probably won't learn enough of it to notice it's
inconsistencies.

> For others to be interested, to actually
> overcome the inertia that such an undertaking
> would entail, that is, to exert a little
> effort for which there is no immediate benefit,
> the Shaw alphabet has to shown to be, it seems
> to me, as something really, really appealing,
> without any feature that anyone could readily
> identify as a fault and use as an excuse for
> dismissing the whole idea. Wasn't there an
> election in the United States recently? Was
> not the slightest inconsistency in the two
> opponents' positions or records used as proof
> of undeniable perfidy and unsuitability of
> holding office? That is what I have meant by
> making it as foolproof as possible, by removing
> the obvious flaws that critics will happily point
> out to impede diffusion, not as an exercise
> in perfection for perfection's sake. The members
> of this group are enthusiasts, which is not to
> be taken as criticism, but as a reminder that
> such an attitude encourages blind spots. Others
> will not be as enthusiastic, nor as forgiving,
> and will need much persuasion — and what better
> persuasion than that provided by a working
> demonstration a well-nigh flawless alternative
> alphabet?

Oh, don't get me started on the election...
Anyway, a more accurate comparison with the election would have British spelling vs.
American spelling, with reforms as the Libertarian, Independent, Green, Pot party, and
other forgotten candidates. (If I left out your party, it's because those are the ones I
thought of at the moment, and the list was long enough already).

> > Oil and Out have more or less unique shapes,
> > not related to other vowels like most of the
> > the other diphthongs are.
>
> This could be because they are the only two
> that are diphthongs by everybody's definition.

Good point.

> > Air and Err include the roar/ray shape
> > ligatured to vowel letters that don't exist
> > by themselves. Why is this? No one complains
> > about these oddities. I only grumble silently
> > about them. If we're going to fix up Shavian,
> > let's not just reverse some letters. Let's
> > stamp out all these illogical features and
> > make an entirely new alphabet.
>
> They were meant to be ligatures of the 'egg' and
> 'ado' letters with the 'r', but given an extra little
> twist so that there would be no confusion with 'array'.
> It was a clever idea but one that spoils the scale of
> these letters, I think.

This is another point that could stand some reform. Still, it's a difference of opinion,
and one opinion is as good as another, I suppose.

> > You also have to keep in mind that most students
> > of Shavian don't know the difference between
> > voiced and voiceless sounds, or the other sounds
> > that Read represented featurally. The logic there
> > won't help them any until they learn these things.
>
> But good teachers do, if the Shaw alphabet could
> ever be introduced into the schools in some form or
> fashion. And even the self-taught shall eventually
> stumble upon this important feature when using Shavian,
> and marvel at its conception.

I guess there just aren't many good teachers. In any case, we have to approach this
from the point-of-view that everyone learning Shavian is basically self-taught or
taught by someone who is. It'll be a long time before Shavian makes it into schools.

> > And despite what some will say, few of us really
> > have a good understanding of our phonemes.
> > We simply recognize them in speech as different
> > sounds, usually without knowing or caring much
> > about their relationships and such technicalities.
> > This, of course, is no reason to throw out the
> > logic. The logic is good. But again we're faced
> > with little more than a difference of opinions.
> > Who's right? Who's to say?
>
> So true. But haven't you learned a lot more about the
> technicalities of language, or at least speech, simply
> by using Shavian? I would think this should be an
> English-teacher's dream, to be able to present a system
> of writing that automatically improves one's grasp of
> the mechanics of language.

I certainly have learned a lot, and it wasn't until after I did that I notice the problems
in Shavian. I guess by this point, we won't want to give up something we've spent so
long learning. I try to think about those who haven't learned Shavian yet, but I'm not
really sure if these reforms would make any difference.

> > If it were so easy, Shavian would probably already be
> > a lot more popular than it is.
>
> Yes it would be. But it isn't, and something is needed.
> Something convincing.

It's hard to convince people that the spellings they know (or don't know) are so
unsatisfactory. The Shavian version of Androcles and the Lion was supposed to be
the convincing demonstration of the superiority of Shavian that we need, but it's just
too obscure. What we need is something very popular that demonstrates the
benefits.

> > Is it really that sophisticated that Read, who
> > wrote quite a bit in Shavian and proto-Shavian
> > as he was designing it, might have noticed that
> > the coastlines were somewhat indistinct and wished
> > to alter them a bit? Maybe. But Read was certainly
> > aware of the coastlines, and emphasized their
> > importance in the Quikscript manual.
>
> It certainly is an intriguing notion.

Maybe it's just a happy mistake. Still, we must weigh that against logic. I don't know
which I prefer.

> > Well, I meant to say that tall and deep consonants
> > are rarely mixed in the same cluster.
>
> Although there are instances of mixed clusters,\beautiful\,
> Gwendolyn, for example, the above appears to be true
>
> > > consonant clusters as suffixes (these do have a
> > > tendency to couple in pairs of similar height,
> > > except for the anomaly ng+k, which is yet another
> > > reason for.....oh, never mind):
>
> > /N/ is tall, and so is /k/. This cluster, then agrees
> > with the statement I made earlier. When /N/ and /g/ come
> > together, it's typically (in most dialects) in a medial
> > position, where there is a syllable break between them.
>
> Got a little confused there. Such are the perils of late-night
> ruminations.

I'm confused too, but that's normal for me. Now, where was I going with that?
When we do have the cluster /Ng/, there is always a syllable break between them,
which I think justifies the difference in their height. When I talk about clusters, I'm
generally referring only to the consonants in the same syllable. Clusters that are
formed when syllables meet can deviate from the height rule and often do.

> > It may be interesting to note that when Tolkien
> > wrote in Elvish for the cover page of LotR, he
> > wrote /rINg/ (7Tb if you have a Tengwar font)
> > rather than /rIN/ (7Tg) as I would pronounce it.
> > I'm not sure if he made the distinction anywhere
> > else (I don't see it, at least), so it may have
> > just been his Tengwar mode and not his pronunciation.
>
> I believe that is because Tolkien was originally a professor
> of Anglo-Saxon literature, and that is the way our forebears
> are supposed to have spoken.

Yes, I forgot this. I forget a lot.

> > Consonants that regularly form clusters with either
> > voiced or voiceless consonants are typically short.
> > If this were carried through logically to all the
> > other letters, /w/ and /j/ should be short as well,
> > except that they don't form these clusters quite as
> > often.
>
> I wonder perhaps if this was the reason Read chose to have
> short consonants at all. Most clusters may well be with
> either \l\ or \r\, and there would have been many more
> double-talls and double-deeps, had only vowels been short.
>
> > And I defy you to find any words that begin
> > with /dw/, /kj/ or /sj/.
>
> Dwell and dwelling — good strong words, been around a
> long time; some people are named Dwight as in Dwight
> D. Eisenhower, as well as Dwayne; I've heard Dweeb as
> a slang attribute, and Frank Zappa actually named one
> of his children Dweezil (OK, that's a little special).
>
> There there's cute /kjut/, cue, cube, que, cure; and suit
> /sjut/, sue, assume. The intrusion of the palatal before
> the vowel can be slight or absent in the speech of many,
> but I think everyone distinguishes cute from coot.

I think you're right. Some of these get reduced in my accent, like suit /sut/, sue /su/,
assume /@sum/, and I take the /j/ to be a part of the vowel. I believe this is the
reason for the ligature Yew.

> > Also note that when <r> precedes a consonant,
> > it's always a vowel and doesn't belong on a list
> > of consonant clusters.
>
> Well, not in rhotic speech. Words such as 'hard,' 'shark,'
> and the like can have very pronounced 'r's in the mouths
> of some; it's often the tip-off of an American accent when
> speaking some other language.

In non-rhotic speech, this R changes the vowel and is otherwise not pronounced. But
also in rhotic speech, the R simply modifies the vowel. The vowel is rhotic because
the tongue is curled upward, and the R is not a distinct sound.

> > Yes, I forgot these two. But by all rights, the
> > 'w' and 'y' there should both be short, as should
> > /N/ by the above logic, and perhaps /h/ since it
> > doesn't have a voiced counterpart. Do we see any
> > other tall consonants without an associated short
> > one? Only the ligature Yew.
>
> Having them short would have been an improvement, then all
> the sonorants would be of similar height.

I believe this was probably Read's intent, but if so I'm not sure why he didn't follow
through with it.

> > And in my accent at least, a lone medial consonant
> > usually goes with the first syllable if it's voiceless
> > and with the next if it's voiced, though, I have a
> > tendency to double such medial consonants so that
> > there's one in each syllable.
>
> How would you spell them in Shavian?
> \fidal, pUpat, dAdi\ or \fiddal, pUppat, dAddi\?

Since there is no important distinction here, I would just write them once. Thus
\fidal\, \pupat\ (maybe \pupet\), \dAdI\ or \dAdi\.
Though I often double consonants in speech, the distinction is rarely important. The
only minimal pair I can think of is "coolly" and "Kuli" (a city in Botswana), which I
would spell \kMlli\ and \kUli\. In cases like these, the doubled L is actually dark L
(farther back in the mouth) that glides into a light L (farther forward). This occurs
anywhere there is a syllable break between two Ls, and I think it's important to write
both of them. This probably isn't necessary with other consonants, though.

Regards,
Joe

Thanks, Hugh
This is an undeserved honor.
I am now OFFICIALLY a moderate on any and all Shavian issues.
I was expecting a somewhat longer apprenticeship period.
But now I guess I have to get my act together, and figure out how to
manage a Yahoo Group.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. What is bounced? Hard Bounced? Soft bounced.
____________________attached_______________________________



--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> Of course Paul - you spend far more time in this group and in the
forum than
> I do.
>
> No application necessary - you're hired :) Moderator privileges
assigned.
>
> Hugh B
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: paul vandenbrink [mailto:pvandenbrink@s...]
> > Sent: 05 January 2005 21:07
> > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [shawalphabet] On the benefits of Moderation
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Hugh
> > I have a lot to learn about the Web-site, but
> > I wouldn't mind becoming an apprentice moderator.
> > Right now, I have trouble moderating my own opinions, much
> > less moderate the extreme opinions of the other fanatics.
> >
> > Every day, when I roll out of the right side of my bed,
> > before I arise from the prone position, I thank G-d for letting
> > me survive another night, and vow that I will not be a fanatic,
> > no matter what the provocation, but before the day is half done,
> > I have lost my cool, and am thinking strongly about the benefits
of
> > random euthanasia. (too hard to determine blame)
> > But with time and practise, I expect to moderate discussions
with the
> > best of them.
> > Please consider my application, if ever, Philip becomes really
> > disenheartened by the
> > incessent bickering that has become our lot.
> >
> > Fond REGARDS, Paul V.
> >
> > _____________________attached_________________________________
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
> > <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > > Steve
> > > At present Philip Newton is a second moderator. He can do most
> > everything I
> > > can. If we want to nominate a third, let's do it.
> > >
> > > I don't expect there to be ANY circumstances where members
would be
> > banned
> > > from this group, unless they are obviously spammers. The old
group
> > > functioned perfectly without any other sorts of bans, so that's
> > exactly how
> > > this one can work too. This basically means, the only thing I
care
> > to do as
> > > a moderator to do is keep the vault organized (the last group's
> > vault was a
> > > complete mess) - I'll leave censorship of free speech to the
> > government!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: stbetta@a... [mailto:stbetta@a...]
> > > Sent: 04 January 2005 07:41
> > > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] RE: [shavian] Re: more on mapping
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hugh,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Where do you get that idea?
> > > The moderator can banish people and some have exercised that
> > ability.
> > >
> > > One group banished a member for posting too many messages.
> > > I banish people who post off topic messages (spam).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think it would be a good idea for you to select a co-
moderator.
> > >
> > > See if you can find someone to volunteer.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I told Dshep that I didn't think that it was possible for him
to be
> > banished
> > > from the Shavian group since there is no moderator.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Steve
> > >
> > > Steve - I still get the feeling you think of me as an
autocratic
> > overlord of
> > > the shawalphabet group, with powers to banish people I don't
like.
> > YOU can
> > > be a moderator at the click of a mouse. Let me know if you
want to
> > be and
> > > I'll make you one. Then you can banish ME if you like. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
> > > Austin, Texas
> > > sbett@l... 512-302-3014
> > > <file:///C:\Documents%2520and%2520Settings\Steve%2520Bett\My%
> > 2520Documents\M
> > > y%2520Webs\www.foolswisdom.com\~sbett>
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
> > > retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
> > > moderator of Saundspel-The Phonology Forum
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date:
> > 30/12/2004
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >