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-----Original Message-----
From: Joe [mailto:wurdbendur@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:46 AM
To: Shaw Alphabet
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] The Schwer, the answer


On 1/18/05 3:54 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

> So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
> represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
> Primary accented syllable.
>
> 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
> it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable then
> that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
> with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)
>
> 4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.
>
> It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".
>
> Any dissenters?

I may be a dissenter, but I don't think these rules will always work.

I agree (with Joe) -- especially rule 1. For example, I'd spell "wandered"
"wondDd": an example of a syllable that ends in a consonant yet takes Array,
not Urge. Similarly for other past participles in -ered.

That's the only exception I can think of off the top of my head, though,
since other examples either end in "er" with the next consonant belonging to
the next syllable and/or the syllable is stressed and so it's Urge for me.

So your rule 1 may work if you add endings in -ered as an explicit
exception, though it's not the way I'd formulate it.

Cheers,
/filip

> So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
> represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
> Primary accented syllable.
>
> 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
> it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable then
> that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
> with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)
>
> 4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.
>
> It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".
>
> Any dissenters?

I may be a dissenter, but I don't think these rules will always work.

I agree (with Joe) -- especially rule 1. For example, I'd spell "wandered"
"wondDd": an example of a syllable that ends in a consonant yet takes Array,
not Urge. Similarly for other past participles in -ered.



That's the only exception I can think of off the top of my head, though,
since other examples either end in "er" with the next consonant belonging to
the next syllable and/or the syllable is stressed and so it's Urge for me.



So your rule 1 may work if you add endings in -ered as an explicit
exception, though it's not the way I'd formulate it.



Cheers,

/filip

I can think of other examples of syllables that take D but end in a
consonant:

o mItDd

o brOkDd

o mItDd

o lIvDd

o kuvDd

o etc

Also:

o pEpDz

o sxvDz

o kuvDz

o bruHDz

o lIvDz

o etc

And:

o tAvDn

o lAntDn

The final consonant doesn't just have to be d or t. There are far too many
exceptions. So this rule sadly isn't quite right.

Hugh B

All of these examples have effectively demonstrated that this is an matter
of stress. What we need, then, is a simple rule for determining stress.
All of these words have two syllables with the first stressed. This is
common for words of this form. So, we can generalize that in two-syllable
words, the fist syllable can have x, and the second will usually take D.
This rule at least has fewer exceptions.
Linguist, Noam Chomski, devised a rule with very few exceptions, but it¹s a
bit too complicated for practical use. A simplified rule says that the
stress is as far from the end of a word as possible, but only up to three
syllables. This explains the stressed-unstressed pattern of these short
words.
This is at least a good guideline. The exceptions just have to be
memorized.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

On 1/19/05 8:56 AM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:
> I can think of other examples of syllables that take D but end in a consonant:
> o mItDd
> o brOkDd
> o mItDd
> o lIvDd
> o kuvDd
> o etc
> Also:
> o pEpDz
> o sxvDz
> o kuvDz
> o bruHDz
> o lIvDz
> o etc
> And:
> o tAvDn
> o lAntDn
> The final consonant doesn¹t just have to be d or t. There are far too many
> exceptions. So this rule sadly isn¹t quite right.
> Hugh B

Hi Hugh & Phil

I can't confirm that all your examples would pronounce the vowel of
the second syllable as an Array. Maybe the stress and the syllable
boundaries are somewhat different for the American pronunciation.
In particular, I would spell
papers as > pE-pxz rhymnes with purrs > pxz
diapers as > dF-pxz
brothers as > bru-Hxz
liver as > lI-vxz
delivers > da-li-vxz
bounders > boun-dxz

Still, thanks for finding some valid exceptions to the rule.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should
be
> > represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept
of a
> > Primary accented syllable.
> >
> > 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a
Consonant
> > it is written with an Err/Urge.
> >
> > 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word
and
> > that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an
Err/Urge.
> >
>
> I agree (with Joe) -- especially rule 1. For example, I'd
spell "wandered"
> "wondDd": an example of a syllable that ends in a consonant yet
takes Array,
> not Urge. Similarly for other past participles in -ered.
>
>
>
> That's the only exception I can think of off the top of my head,
though,
> since other examples either end in "er" with the next consonant
belonging to
> the next syllable and/or the syllable is stressed and so it's Urge
for me.
>
>
>
> So your rule 1 may work if you add endings in -ered as an explicit
> exception, though it's not the way I'd formulate it.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> /filip
>
> I can think of other examples of syllables that take D but end in a
> consonant:
>
> o mItDd
>
> o brOkDd
>
> o mItDd
>
> o lIvDd
>
> o kuvDd
>
> o etc
>
> Also:
>
> o pEpDz
>
> o sxvDz
>
> o kuvDz
>
> o bruHDz
>
> o lIvDz
>
> o etc
>
> And:
>
> o tAvDn
>
> o lAntDn
>
> The final consonant doesn't just have to be d or t. There are far
too many
> exceptions. So this rule sadly isn't quite right.
>
> Hugh B

I¹ve mentioned before that I don¹t distinguish the sounds represented in
Shavian by the letter X. I can¹t usually tell them apart when I hear them,
but I¹d like to at least distinguish them in my writing. Is there any
guideline I can follow for this?
I spell both ³Mary² and ³merry² as mXi. I suspect that if I were
distinguish these sounds, they should be mArI and meri, respectively. Is
this correct?
I know the issue of separate letters for these has been discussed before,
but I found it a bit hard to follow since I don¹t use the sounds in
question.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

Paul,

I think that your phonemic spelling (if it is General American) should be
derived from a dictionary key such as the one at www.m-w.com.

papers = 'pAp&rz [unstressed schwa or D] pEpDz
purrs = p'&rz [stressed schwa or x] pxz
diapers = 'dIp&rz [unstressed schwa or D] dFpDz
diverse divers = di'v&rs 'dIv&rz = dFvxrs dFvDz
reverse-rivers-driver = ri'v&rs 'riv&rz 'drIv&r = rivxs rivDz drFvD

PV: I can't confirm that all your examples would pronounce the vowel of
the second syllable as an Array. Maybe the stress and the syllable
boundaries are somewhat different for the American pronunciation.
In particular, I would spell

SB: I doubt it. To make such a claim you should at least identify one case.
My guess is that stress differences in various dialects of English are
rather rare.
I think that relative stress is a key feature of English.
You can pronounce all syllables with equal stress, but it doesn't
sound right.
It also obscures noun-verb differences in words like rebel, object,
....

SB: If you are trying to match a dictionary key, all of your spellings are
wrong.


NO papers as > pE-pxz rhymnes with purrs > pxz
NO diapers as > dF-pxz
NO brothers as > bru-Hxz
NO liver as > lI-vxz
NO delivers > da-li-vxz
NO bounders > boun-dxz

Still, thanks for finding some valid exceptions to the rule.

HB:
> > So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
> > represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
> > Primary accented syllable.

> > 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
> > it is written with an Err/Urge.

SB: A consonant ending tells you nothing about stress and the key difference
between
array and Urge is a stress difference.

> > 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> > that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.

SB: The most common distinction in tradspel is to use ur for the stressed
/3`/ and
er for the unstressed /@`/

SB: surfer is a good key word: sxfD

SB: However, there are plenty of exceptions: murmur mxmD herder hxdD

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:40:35 -0500, Joe <wurdbendur@...> wrote:
> I've mentioned before that I don't distinguish the sounds represented in
> Shavian by the letter X. I can't usually tell them apart when I hear them,
> but I'd like to at least distinguish them in my writing. Is there any
> guideline I can follow for this?

I believe it was Hugh who suggested www.dictionary.com -- the
pronunciations in their pronunciation guide (key:
http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html), based
apparently on the "American Heritage Dictionary", map fairly well to
Shavian. (For example, they distinguish between the sound in "pot" and
that in "caught" and that in "father".)

> I spell both "Mary" and "merry" as mXi. I suspect that if I were
> distinguish these sounds, they should be mArI and meri, respectively. Is
> this correct?

I believe not -- mArI is "marry"; mXI is "Mary"; and merI is "merry"
(with the choice of i ~ I at the end up to you; using the AHD
pronunciation at dictionary.com, it would be "I", which is also my
personal preference).

I pronounce those as [m&ri], [mE@ri], and [mEri], respectively (using
ASCII IPA) -- the difference between "marry" and "merry" is in the
vowel (the vowels of "mat" and "met", respectively), and "Mary" has,
for me, the same "eh-uh" diphthong as in "air". So, "ma(t)-ree",
"meh-uh-ree", and "me(t)-ree", roughly.

> I know the issue of separate letters for these has been discussed before,
> but I found it a bit hard to follow since I don't use the sounds in
> question.

*nods*

I'm biassed since my 'lect maps to "Standard"(?) Shavian fairly well,
but I imagine that there are two possibilities in this situation:
attempt to write "standard" Shavian (which will require memorising
which word is spelled which way for a fair number of words containing
phonemes that have merged in your speech), or choosing one way to
represent that merged phoneme and writing the way you speak. For
example, if you pronounce "Mary" and "merry" the same, you could spell
them both "merI" or both "mXI". Some things may look weird to people
who distinguish the phonemes (e.g. reading "awn" for "on" when someone
who uses "awe" for both "cot" and "caught" sounds), but they should
still be understandable.

Apologies for not using Shavian letters in this post; it's easier when
I'm at work because of the different email client there.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Joe,

I think the key is to use a dictionary key as your guide rather than your own
dialect.
Many people do not distinguish merry marry Mary. Webster: merE, marE, merE

Mary = 'mer-E, 'mar-E, 'mA-rE IPA: mEri, m{ri, meIri

I think the AIR symbol may have been invented to represent an ambiguous
pronunciation.

If you don't want to pick one of the pronunciations above, then use mXF

Read was originally trying to combine eh-ih-r in one symbol which he would
call AIR.
The transposition error obscured this.
I’ve mentioned before that I don’t distinguish the sounds represented in
Shavian by the letter X. I can’t usually tell them apart when I hear them, but I’
d like to at least distinguish them in my writing. Is there any guideline I
can follow for this?
I spell both “Mary” and “merry” as mXi. I suspect that if I were
distinguish these sounds, they should be mArI and meri, respectively. Is this correct?
I know the issue of separate letters for these has been discussed before, but
I found it a bit hard to follow since I don’t use the sounds in question.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

PV: Scott, While I would prefer a single letter, you do seem to be confusing
the 2 different pronunciations.
Perhaps we can agree onanother of list of words where the sounds
actually do seem to be different.

PV: You can check on Dictionary.com
1. ur = urge, term, firm, word, heard, gird, bird, stirred, turn, earn,
nervous
2. ur + er = butter, murder, girder, murmur, further, gangster, talker,
Earl, or (er)angatan, earth, urbane, surfer, murmur, water, corner

SB: The dictionary doesn''t make a distinction between one and two syllable
words or between closed and open syllables.. The distinction is one of stress.
If the ER sound is stressed it is /3`/ or x x.
If the ER sound is unstressed, it is /@`/ or D D.

orangatang = a'rANgatAN

I don't care for a ligature across a syllable boundary.
What is the consensus here?


PV: Don't you find it interesting that most cases of sound 1, occur in
closed syllables?

Sound 1 and 2 are usually the same.



Regards, Paul V.

--- stbetta@a... wrote:
SB:
> The options are either to merge the two sounds /3/ and /@/ as in a
Webster notation
> &r'bAn, '&rban, &'rang&tang, 's&rf&r
> or we find key words that keeps them distinct as in the IPA.

> urbane @r'beIn DbEn,
urban '3rb@n xban,
orangatant @'rang@tang arANgatAn,
surfer 's3rf@r sxfD

Paul, Here are the requested exampbles of the sound in URGE that is not in a
closed syllable.

curtain Webster 'k&rt&n IPA 'k3rt@n ENgliS kurtan Shaw kxtin
occur Webster: &'k&r IPA @'k3` ENgliS akur Shaw akx
acre Webster Ák&r IPA 'eIk@r Akar EkD
infer inf&r IPA in'f3` ENgliS infur Shaw
infx
reefer refer rEf&r ri'f&r rEfar rEfur
rIfD rifx

--Steve

Paul wrote
I am tenatively willing to accept the use of both the array
(Schwer) and Err (Urge) even without an appropriate sample name for
the Schwer sound.

I completely accept the need for Ado and Up. Lots of obvious
benefits, and it is quite easy to distinguish the 2 phonemes.
But that is not the case with Array and Err sounds.

I see that Dictionary.com differentiates them quite nicely.
But can anyone provide a varied list of examples showing where both
sounds are found in different words.
I only see Err (Urge) in Consonant closed syllables.
Perhaps someone else can provide a good Rhotic explanation.