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Count me as a dessenter:

IR-win (Urge)
EAR-l (Urge)
er-RA-tic (Array)
FUR-tive (Urge)
ur-BANE (Array)
ER-Go (Air)

And as an extra, consider the letter names themselves:

ar-RAY
UR-ge (long sylable, so the lesser stress is harder to spot)

sorry, Hugh, the debate continues.

I was considering the example of wander and wanderer, and I think that
we have once again run into the demon of pronunciation. In "CNN"
pronunciation (American RP?) the final R is fully pronounced. I think
it goes back to the old rule of shavian: Spell it the way you say it.

--Star


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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Phillip, Paul, Star, and others,

The consensus seems to be to treat ligatures as ligatures ar = D both
unstressed
and treat the combined forms as different phonemes. X = /3`/ (ergo) always
stressed.

Thus ar = /&r/ or /&/ for non-rhotics {&=schwa}
while <ar> ligature <D> = /3r/ or just /3/ for non-rhotics.


Earl xl not Dl ergo+L
urge xJ not DJ
urgent xJent
urbane DbEn
detergent ditxJant dItxJant
(need a standard way of handling SCHWI, IPA /i/.)
A schwi is very short, < 50 msec, but has the quality of eel I
PMF, which uses the same symbol, makes the stressed /i/ wider.

How many people have difficulty locating the stressed syllable in a
multisyllable word?
The default stress is on the first syllable on words up to 3 syllables.
defy = difF This is irregular stress. perhaps di-'faI
paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Thanks Star & Hugh
> That confirms my theory.
>
> If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a
> Consonant it is written with an Err/Urge. Otherwise it can
> always be written with an "Array".

I don't think so -- consider, say, "battered". I'd write that "batDd", since
the second syllable is not stressed, yet the second syllable ends in a
consonant.
On the other hand, I'd write "detergent" as "dItxJant", and I'd syllabify it
as "dI-tx-Jant", so the middle syllable does not end in a consonant.
> It is much easier to follow this simple rule than to try and figure
> out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable.
I think that it is the stress which needs to come into play here.

> P.S. Because of the above rule, I would be inclined to spell
> Irwin, Earl, erratic, furtive, ur-bane and ergo all with a
> Shavian "array"
> letter. Any dissenters. I think all of these "er" based syllables
> are unstressed.

I'd spell those /xwin, xl, erAtik, fxtiv, xbEn, and xgO -- all with "urge".
(And "urbane" despite the main stress on the second syllable; I think it has
stress on both syllables, with secondary stress on the first.)

I also think that all of those words have the "er" syllable stressed (with
secondary stress in the case of "urbane", primary stress in the other cases).

I'm particularly confused how you think that "Earl" has no stressed syllable
when it's only got one syllable-unless you consider the "l" to be syllabic?
But then I'd consider it odd to hear that syllable stressed -- "urr-LLLL"?
--Steve


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
mailto:sbett@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

> I was considering the example of wander and wanderer, and I think that
> we have once again run into the demon of pronunciation. In "CNN"
> pronunciation (American RP?) the final R is fully pronounced. I think
> it goes back to the old rule of shavian: Spell it the way you say it.

Hehe... I was only using that example for speakers of *British* English,
i.e. myself and Philip! Of course Americans always pronounce 'array' the
same. Sorry for the confusion.

Hugh B

Hugh notes:

>> I was considering the example of wander and wanderer...<<
This fully rhotic North American speaker could go with either
woe-ah-nun-dead-roar-array
or
woe-ah-nun-dead-array-array

For me the word has three syllables, though I think I'm influenced by my high
school's football team song "The Happy Wanderer" - wow, that was an even half
a century ago!

I'm mystified by installing fonts in Mac's System X, but I can't get the new
Shaw font to work.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

Yeah, I was using it as an example for British (and Australian) English
speakers.



Re Mac fonts: can somebody convert Shaw Sans No.2 into a Mac format?



Hugh B



_____

From: RSRICHMOND@... [mailto:RSRICHMOND@...]
Sent: 18 January 2005 12:30
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: The Schwer, the big question



Hugh notes:

>> I was considering the example of wander and wanderer...<<
This fully rhotic North American speaker could go with either
woe-ah-nun-dead-roar-array
or
woe-ah-nun-dead-array-array

For me the word has three syllables, though I think I'm influenced by my
high school's football team song "The Happy Wanderer" - wow, that was an
even half a century ago!

I'm mystified by installing fonts in Mac's System X, but I can't get the new
Shaw font to work.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

_____

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Windows TrueType fonts should work fine in Mac OS X. If you¹re running an
earlier version, there are a few converters online. In that case, I would
suggest getting one of them since there are probably other fonts you¹ll want
to convert. Just Google for something like ³font converter².
You have a couple options for installing the fonts in OS X, depending on
which users you want to be able to use the fonts. If you only have one
user, it doesn¹t matter.
If ~ represents your user folder, you can put it in ~/Library/Fonts to make
it accessible only to you. (This is what I usually do.)
If you want it to be accessible to all users, go to the top level of your
hard drive and put it in Library/Fonts there.


On 1/18/05 8:19 AM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:

> Yeah, I was using it as an example for British (and Australian) English
> speakers.
>
> Re Mac fonts: can somebody convert Shaw Sans No.2 into a Mac format?
>
> Hugh B

Hi Everybody
The prize for the best answer goes to the Lady.
Thanks, Star for clarifying the mysterious Schwer, commonly written
as Array.
Her answer is by far the most cognant.
Although, I admit that it is difficult for Non-Rhotic English
speakers.
Let me recap.

> Star wrote:
>
> IR-win (Urge)
> EAR-l (Urge)
> er-RA-tic (Array)
> FUR-tive (Urge)
> ur-BANE (Array)
> ER-Go (Air)

{additional examples}
> MUR-der (Urge) + (Array)
> FUR-ni-ture) (Urge) + (Array)
> WON-dered (Array}
> WAN-dered (Array}
> WAN-der-er (Array) x 2
> o-ffer (array)
> And as an extra, consider the letter names themselves:
>
> ar-RAY {Array}
> URGE {Urge}

> When in doubt, goes back to the old rule of shavian: Spell it the
way you say it.
>
> --Star

So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
Primary accented syllable.

1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
it is written with an Err/Urge.

2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.

3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable then
that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)

4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.

It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".

Any dissenters?

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. I do consider "Ear-l" to be a 2 syllable word with the stress on
the "er" sound. So I would write it with the Err (Urge) Shaw Letter.

On 1/18/05 3:54 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

> Hi Everybody
> The prize for the best answer goes to the Lady.
> Thanks, Star for clarifying the mysterious Schwer, commonly written
> as Array.
> Her answer is by far the most cognant.
> Although, I admit that it is difficult for Non-Rhotic English
> speakers.

I agree.

> So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
> represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
> Primary accented syllable.
>
> 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
> it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable then
> that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
> with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)
>
> 4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.
>
> It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".
>
> Any dissenters?

I may be a dissenter, but I don¹t think these rules will always work. It¹s
easier for me to refer to stress since I already know it. For a non-native
speaker of English, a rule like this is probably easier. I¹m not sure it¹s
entirely accurate, but it¹s a good guide.

> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. I do consider "Ear-l" to be a 2 syllable word with the stress on
> the "er" sound. So I would write it with the Err (Urge) Shaw Letter.

I sometimes pronounce a syllabic ³L² here. I try to keep it down to one
syllable, but both pronunciations are valid.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

Woo hoo!

--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Everybody
> The prize for the best answer goes to the Lady.
> Thanks, Star for clarifying the mysterious Schwer, commonly written
> as Array.
> Her answer is by far the most cognant.
> Although, I admit that it is difficult for Non-Rhotic English
> speakers.
> Let me recap.
>
> > Star wrote:
> >
> > IR-win (Urge)
> > EAR-l (Urge)
> > er-RA-tic (Array)
> > FUR-tive (Urge)
> > ur-BANE (Array)
> > ER-Go (Air)
>
> {additional examples}
> > MUR-der (Urge) + (Array)
> > FUR-ni-ture) (Urge) + (Array)
> > WON-dered (Array}
> > WAN-dered (Array}
> > WAN-der-er (Array) x 2
> > o-ffer (array)
> > And as an extra, consider the letter names themselves:
> >
> > ar-RAY {Array}
> > URGE {Urge}
>
> > When in doubt, goes back to the old rule of shavian: Spell it the
> way you say it.
> >
> > --Star
>
> So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
> represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept of a
>
> Primary accented syllable.
>
> 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
> it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> 3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable then
> that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
> with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)
>
> 4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.
>
> It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".
>
> Any dissenters?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. I do consider "Ear-l" to be a 2 syllable word with the stress on
>
> the "er" sound. So I would write it with the Err (Urge) Shaw Letter.
>
>
>
>
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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Hi Joe

Thanks, for your qualified support in this matter.

As you mentioned, if you can hear the stress or the difference in the
sound, then you don't need the rules as a guide.
Unfortunately, I can not consistently hear the difference.
In some words the "er" sounds longer and stressed, and in some words
it sounds unstressed. In fact in the word In-ter-est, there is so
little stress, it can sound like like in-trist.
And in a lot of words, it is somewhere inbetween.
So I need the rule. And maybe I can make up a list of exceptions to
the rule as they come up.

This is the one case ("er"/"ur") where it is much easier for Non-
Rhotic English speakers to differentiate. Usually they hear, Array as
a Schwa sound, and the Err/Urge sound as a Dipthong where the Ooze
sound glides into a Schwa sound. It is quite easy to for a British
English speaker to differentiate a Schwa from a Dipthong, by vowel
length alone.
For a Rhotic English speaker it requires differentiating a Schwer
from a Short vowel merged with a Schwer.
A different kettle of fish, entirely.
And the British say that we have an accent. :)

Still, American Speakers can't do away with "Err/Urge" entirely.
It is an essential member of the set of 6 Rhotic Letters, we use to
maintain a minimum of mutuality across the Rhotic/Non-Rhotic English
divide.

Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should be
represented by "Array" or "Urge".
I will incorporate the concept of a
Primary accented syllable in the rule.
> >
> > 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a
Consonant
> > it is written with an Err/Urge.
> >
> > 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> > that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an
Err/Urge.
> >
> > 3. If the "er" sound is part of the word with a single syllable
then
> > that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is written
> > with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)
> >
> > 4. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> > an "Array". "Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/Urge.
> >
> > It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> > out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> > syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".
> >
> > Any dissenters?
>
I may be a dissenter, but I don¹t think these rules will always work.
There are probably exceptions.
It¹s easier for me to refer to stress since I already know it. For a
non-native speaker of English, a rule like this is probably easier.
I¹m not sure it¹s entirely accurate, but it¹s a good guide.