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Paul,

Give me two multisyllable words where you cannot determine which syllable is
stressed.

I gave you a half dozen where if you can't hear the stress, you don't know if
it is a noun or verb.

-Steve

Steve
Hi Steve

I can't hear Stress consistently, so that doesn't help me to have
stress syllable.
At least with vowels, I have some rules based on Syllable boundaries
that work 98% of the time.

Marking stress is an unnecessary complication for most readers.
As I said before British Non-Rhotic English speakers don't have any
difficulty differentiating all these vowel sounds.

Paul Vandenbrink wrote:

> I got a little lost in Scott's explanation and I disagree with one
> small piece of Phil's explanation. For me, mem+Array+Eat, sounds like
> the names Ma-rie or even Murray.

I agree; mDI sounds like "Marie" to me, though I'd spell it marI, since I
feel that the r- belongs only to the second syllable.

> In American English, the Are sound followed by an Eat, has become
> unpopular.
> People switched pronunciation to Air + Eat.
>
> Vary -> very
> Mary -> merry
> tarry -> terry as in terry cloth
> Calgary -> Calgery
> Gary -> Gerry
> Larry -> Lerry
> Nary -> Nerry

For nearly all of those, the words in the second column rhyme with "merry"
for me and I'd spell them with erI in Shavian, while those in the first
column rhyme with either "Mary" (vary, Mary, nary -- the sound I'd spell XI)
or "marry" (tarry, Gary, Larry -- the sound I'd spell ArI). The exception is
"Calgary", which is "kAlgarI" or maybe "kAlgDI" for me (I'd be inclined to
write the first but am not sure).

> The Are sound is retained in a few words
> starry
> sorry (sari)

I pronounce those like "stRI" (or "styrI"?) and "sorI", respectively.

> And the old way of pronouncing Mary is retained in the common
> name Marie.

"Marie", for me, is "marI", with stress on the second syllable-though my
father has a relative who pronounces it with stress on the first syllable,
in which case it rhymes with "starry" (roughly, "MAH-ree" or "mRI").

Cheers,
/filip

SB: If Shavian is to be an analog of the IPA, then it needs both /@/ schwa
and /@`/ schwer, and stressed schwer /3`/.

as in ago, surfer, and urge,
agO, sxfD, xJa

I think we have agreed that the ligatured sound signs can be pronounced in a
rhotic or non-rhotic manner. In other words D x can have the same
pronunciation as a.



JW: Do you mean u? This is the stressed equivalent of a, which would
correspond to x, right? Or am I misunderstanding the non-rhotic accent
here?

SB: I think you are right. Altho many non-rhotics insist that u is not the
same as their pronunciation of x. They say there is a difference in the way
they pronounce surfer and suffer.

PN: Indeed; I also make this distinction in my speech. The sound of x is not
rhotic for me, but is like no other vowel sound (neither a nor A nor u),
while D is indeed pronounced like a.

x is most similar, perhaps, to [œ] as in French "neuf" or German "können".

Cheers,
/filip

If you want to minimize symbols, you can merge these sounds and add a stress
symbol as is done at www.m-w.com





This would obviously be very ugly, involving diacritical marks, which Shaw
detested (and so do I).



The schwa/schwer characters in Shavian are a brilliant solution to the
problem, I think. Those who can't decide when to use either would certainly
not have much luck with stress indicators either!!



Hugh B

My freshmen english teacher had us rest the back of our hands under our
chin. When you reach the points of stress in a word or sentence, your
chin will drop further than in a non-stressed syllable. Try it! It
works!

--Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:

> I agree 100% Steve (apart from spelling dFvxs as dFvxrs!)
>
>
>
> Stress is UNIVERSAL to English speakers, British or American. Perhaps
> it is
> not easily noticed if one is not accustomed to looking for it - but
> it is
> always there.
>
>
>
> Maybe we should find some material all about English stress that
> might help
> people having difficulty understanding it - the fact that some
> confuse 'err'
> and 'array' is obviously not the fault of Shavian.
>
>
>
> Hugh B
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: stbetta@... [mailto:stbetta@...]
> Sent: 19 January 2005 20:13
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: euro-english@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: The Schwer, the answer, enough for
> now
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> I think that your phonemic spelling (if it is General American)
> should be
> derived from a dictionary key such as the one at www.m-w.com.
>
>
>
> papers = 'pAp&rz [unstressed schwa or D] pEpDz
>
> purrs = p'&rz [stressed schwa or x] pxz
>
> diapers = 'dIp&rz [unstressed schwa or D] dFpDz
>
> diverse divers = di'v&rs 'dIv&rz = dFvxrs dFvDz
>
> reverse-rivers-driver = ri'v&rs 'riv&rz 'drIv&r = rivxs rivDz
> drFvD
>
>
>
> PV: I can't confirm that all your examples would pronounce the vowel
> of
> the second syllable as an Array. Maybe the stress and the syllable
> boundaries are somewhat different for the American pronunciation.
> In particular, I would spell
>
>
>
> SB: I doubt it. To make such a claim you should at least identify
> one
> case.
> My guess is that stress differences in various dialects of
> English
> are rather rare.
>
> I think that relative stress is a key feature of English.
> You can pronounce all syllables with equal stress, but it
> doesn't
> sound right.
>
> It also obscures noun-verb differences in words like rebel,
> object,
> ....
>
>
>
> SB: If you are trying to match a dictionary key, all of your
> spellings are
> wrong.
>
>
>
> NO papers as > pE-pxz rhymnes with purrs > pxz
> NO diapers as > dF-pxz
> NO brothers as > bru-Hxz
> NO liver as > lI-vxz
> NO delivers > da-li-vxz
> NO bounders > boun-dxz
>
> Still, thanks for finding some valid exceptions to the rule.
>
> HB:
> > > So let me revise my rule for determining if the "er" sound should
> be
> > > represented by "Array" or "Urge". I will incorporate the concept
> of a
> > > Primary accented syllable.
>
> > > 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a
> Consonant
> > > it is written with an Err/Urge.
>
> SB: A consonant ending tells you nothing about stress and the key
> difference
> between
>
> array and Urge is a stress difference.
>
>
>
> > > 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word
> and
> > > that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an
> Err/Urge.
>
>
>
> SB: The most common distinction in tradspel is to use ur for the
> stressed
> /3`/ and
>
> er for the unstressed /@`/
>
> SB: surfer is a good key word: sxfD
>
>
>
> SB: However, there are plenty of exceptions: murmur mxmD herder
> hxdD
>
>
>
> _____
>
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>
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>


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I can also tell a difference in these sounds, though my accent is rhotic.
The sound represented by u is lower and usually farther back than that
represented by x.
There¹s no Shavian letter for a non-rhotic x because that sound doesn¹t
occur as a distinct phoneme. It doesn¹t exist in non-rhotic accents, and in
rhotic ones both sounds are equivalent. So, a non-rhotic letter is not
really needed, but if we pair stressed and unstressed letters and line them
up, we get the following correspondences:

Unstressed Stressed
Rhotic a u
Non-rhotic D x

The actual pronunciation doesn¹t fit this table exactly, which is probably
why x and u have distinct shapes. And I hope my table isn¹t distorted too
much in transit since I simply used spaces.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

On 1/20/05 6:04 AM, "Newton, Philip" <Philip.Newton@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>> JW: Do you mean u? This is the stressed equivalent of a, which would
>>> correspond to x, right? Or am I misunderstanding the non-rhotic accent
>>> here?
>>
>> SB: I think you are right. Altho many non-rhotics insist that u is not the
>> same as their pronunciation of x. They say there is a difference in the way
>> they pronounce surfer and suffer.
> PN: Indeed; I also make this distinction in my speech. The sound of x is not
> rhotic for me, but is like no other vowel sound (neither a nor A nor u), while
> D is indeed pronounced like a.
>
> x is most similar, perhaps, to [¦] as in French "neuf" or German "können".
>
> Cheers,
> /filip

Hi Philip

In American pronunciation, the examples below are all
pronounced with the "X" (Air) sound. Another example of the
consolidation of vowels in General American Pronunciation.
It makes for a lot more Homonyms, alas.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Sari and Sorry are Homonyms in G.A. too

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Newton, Philip"
<Philip.Newton@g...> wrote:
> > In American English, the Are sound followed by an Eat, has become
> > unpopular.
> > People switched pronunciation to Air + Eat.
> >
> > Vary -> very
> > Mary -> merry
> > tarry -> terry as in terry cloth
> > Calgary -> Calgery
> > Gary -> Gerry
> > Larry -> Lerry
> > Nary -> Nerry
>
> For nearly all of those, the words in the second column rhyme
with "merry"
> for me and I'd spell them with erI in Shavian, while those in the
first
> column rhyme with either "Mary" (vary, Mary, nary -- the sound I'd
spell XI)
> or "marry" (tarry, Gary, Larry -- the sound I'd spell ArI). The
exception is
> "Calgary", which is "kAlgarI" or maybe "kAlgDI" for me (I'd be
inclined to
> write the first but am not sure).
>
> > The Are sound is retained in a few words
> > starry
> > sorry (sari)
>
> I pronounce those like "stRI" (or "styrI"?) and "sorI",
respectively.

Hi Hugh
I have to agree with you.
Stress indicators vary considerably across accent groups,
and I would say it is harder to recognize that the phonemes themself.
However, I can consistently recognize the difference between "array"
and "urge" either.
Still I can recognize the Phoneme difference, more often than the
Stress or Syllable accent.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> If you want to minimize symbols, you can merge these sounds and add
a stress
> symbol as is done at www.m-w.com
> The schwa/schwer characters in Shavian are a brilliant solution to
the problem, I think. Those who can't decide when to use either would
certainly not have much luck with stress indicators either!!
> Hugh B

> Hi Steve
> I will add Refer, Occur, Infer, Allure and figure to the
> exception list.
> Also Reefer refer, makes for a nice minimal pair.

"Figure" takes 'array'.

Hugh B

P.S. Sari and Sorry are Homonyms in G.A. too

PN: In American English, the Are sound followed by an Eat, has become
unpopular
People (have) switched (the) pronunciation to Air + Eat. <marry-merry>

SB: Check www.m-w.com for General American pronunciation.
The issue is how do you pronounce AIR. Webster says ar, er, IPA: {r Er



> > Vary -> very SB: Can be pronounce as spelled. v{ri vEri
> > Mary -> merry
> > tarry -> terry as in terry cloth /t{ri/ /tEri/
> > Calgary -> Calgery
> > Gary -> Gerry
> > Larry -> Lerry
> > Nary -> Nerry
-ArI -eXI
> For nearly all of those, the words in the second column rhyme
with "merry" for me and I'd spell them with erI in Shavian, while those in
the
first column rhyme with either "Mary" (vary, Mary, nary -- the sound I'd
spell XI) or "marry" (tarry, Gary, Larry -- the sound I'd spell ArI). The
exception is "Calgary", which is "kAlgarI" or maybe "kAlgDI" for me (I'd be
inclined to write the first but am not sure).
Isn't the second syllable unstressed? If so, then kAlgDI
> > The Are sound is retained in a few words
> > starry sorry (sari) stRI - styrI sorI (sRI?)
Shavian provies two ways to spell starry, one ligatured.
EXERCISE 2: Identifying phonemes or sounds that can change the meaning of
words
Count the [minimum] number of speech sounds in the list below:
Write the number down on a piece of paper before checking the answers.
ICE - 2 or 3 phonograms?, write down the lower number: 2. [soundspel: ies]

Louisa Moats [Speech to Print, Brookes Publ, 2000] thinks this can be taught.

Count the number of phonemes in each of these words
ice sigh day aide choose sing thorn quake mix pitched straight
measure soothe her boy shout
Being able to write the word phonemically either in Shavian, Unifon, or IPA
helps. Unifon helps the respondent to match Moat's answers since in this
notation [I] is considered to be a single sound rather than a diphthong or
combination of two sounds: IPA S /aI/.




ANSWERS: click on hidden yellow numbers to highlight. PDE=present day
written English
# PDE Unifon IPA SoundSpel Shaw

3 ice - oEs/Is ais ies aIs/Fs

3 sigh - soE/sI saI sie saI/sF
4 sorry/sari- sorE säri sorry sRI

2 ice - Is aIs ies aIs / Fs

2 my mice - mI maI my mies mF

2 day - dA deI dae dE

2 aide - Ad eId aed Ed

2 choose - KUz tSuz chooz cMz

3 choose - tSUz tSuz chooz cMz

3 sing - siN siN sing siN

2 thorn - TOrn TOrn thorn TPn

4 quake - kwAk kweik qaek kwEk

4 mix - miks miks mix miks

4 pitched - piKd
5 pitched - pitSt pitSt picht pict

5 straight - strAt streit straet strEt

5 measure - meZcr mezh@` mezher meZD

3 soothe - sUD su:dh soothe sMT

2 her - hR h3` her/hur hx
3 her - hcr h3:

2 boy - bQ boi boy bq

3 shout - Sqt Saut shout SQt

4 speech - spEK spi:tS speech spIc


stbetta@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel