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I know Shavian is intended for English, and not to function as the
International Phonetic Alphabet. However, in English, we do use
French, Spanish, Italian words, not to mention Scottish, German, etc.

Quikscript has four extra characters, one of which signifies the ch as
in the Scottish word loch, or the German name Bach. Another signifies
ll as in the Spanish llama, which, I take it, is like the gl in the
Italian article gli. The Portuguese have a similar sound in lhe.

To return from Quikscript to Shavian, how would we express

(1) the ch of loch and
(2) the ll of llama in Shavian?

Also, I don't find anything either in Quikscript or in Shavian for the
pure nasal as in "Bon jour!" In "bon" the o is nasalized, thus the n
is not a consonant. The Shavian n stands for the consonant n as in
bonfire. We use n in non-phonetic English for want of another way to
express nasalization. "Bon jour!" is not the only phrase with the
nasal n. "Bon voyage!" is a farewell quite comfortably used in
English when seeing off someone on a cruise or a long trip. I'm sure
there are other examples. Which brings me to my third question:

(3) How does one write "Bon voyage!" in Shavian?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cossyrosario [mailto:cossyrosario@yahoo.co.in
<mailto:cossyrosario@...> ]
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shawalphabet] How does one express these sounds in Shavian?
>
> I know Shavian is intended for English, and not to function
> as the International Phonetic Alphabet. However, in English,
> we do use French, Spanish, Italian words, not to mention
> Scottish, German, etc.

And sometimes we make an effort to pronounce them "correctly" (that is, the
way they are pronounced in the source language) :D but often, people just
fit them into English pronunciation as best they can.

I think it probably makes most sense to reproduce this English pronunciation
in Shavian.

> Quikscript has four extra characters, one of which signifies
> the ch as in the Scottish word loch, or the German name Bach.
> Another signifies ll as in the Spanish llama, which, I take
> it, is like the gl in the Italian article gli. The Portuguese
> have a similar sound in lhe.
>
> To return from Quikscript to Shavian, how would we express
>
> (1) the ch of loch and

I would say with "k"-"lok" for "loch". (Same as "lock".) I've heard "Bahk"
(byk) for "Bach" a fair bit, anyway.

It's not perfect, but I think it's the best we can do. The /x/ sound is not
really a phoneme in English.

> (2) the ll of llama in Shavian?

I'd say with "lj" or possibly simply "j", depending on the pronunciation.

The English word "llama", I pronounce simply "lyma". But, for example,
"Llano Estacado" I might write "jynO estAcydO".

Similarly, I'd render "canyon" (from Spanish "cañon") as "kAnjan", even
though "ñ" is not exactly "nj" in Spanish.

> Also, I don't find anything either in Quikscript or in
> Shavian for the pure nasal as in "Bon jour!" In "bon" the o
> is nasalized, thus the n is not a consonant. The Shavian n
> stands for the consonant n as in bonfire. We use n in
> non-phonetic English for want of another way to express
> nasalization. "Bon jour!" is not the only phrase with the
> nasal n. "Bon voyage!" is a farewell quite comfortably used
> in English when seeing off someone on a cruise or a long
> trip. I'm sure there are other examples. Which brings me to
> my third question:
>
> (3) How does one write "Bon voyage!" in Shavian?

I hear it as "bon vOjyZ", roughly-rarely do I hear it pronounced exactly as
in French. So that's how I'd write it in Shavian. Similarly, I'd write "bon
appetit" as "bOnApetI". (And "bonjour" as "bonJMD".)

Cheers,
/filip

> (1) the ch of loch and
> (2) the ll of llama in Shavian?
> (3) How does one write "Bon voyage!" in Shavian?
>

This is easy: the old rule of spell it like it sounds would say use the
angliciced version of the word.

Loch becomes: l-(on)-k
llama becomes: y-(ah)-m-(schwa)
and
Bon Voyage: b-(on)-n v-(oi)-(ah)-zh

Shavian is meant purely for English, not to be an international
alphabet, and it would simply over-run it with special symbols if you
tried to accomidate them all. You can see how well english does as it
is with TO and the current form of transliteration.

--Star

====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!

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Hi Hugh

Thanks for the information.
So let me revise my rule yet again for determining if the "er" sound
should be represented by "Array" or "Urge".
I will incorporate the concept of exceptions to the rule.
> >
> > 1. If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a
Consonant it is written with an Err/Urge with the exception of the
words
tav-ern, deliv-ers and broth-ers.
> >
> > 2. If the "er" sound is part of the first syllable of the word and
> > that syllable has the primary accent, it is written with an
Err/Urge.
> >
> > 3. If the "er" sound is part of the monosyllabic word
then that syllable has the primary accent by default, so it is always
written with an Err/Urge. (i.e. fur, fir, stir, cur, burr, spur, her)

4. In certain exceptional English words where the "er" sound is
in a Primary accented syllable, even though that syllable is the last
syllable of a multisyllabic word, the "Err/Urge" letter is used.
These exceptions include Refer, Occur, Infer, Allure and concur.

> > 5. Otherwise the "er" sound can always be wriiten with
> > an "Array".

"Array" is a shorter sound than the "Err"/"Urge" and is much more
commonly used than "Err"/"Urge".
There is a maximum of one "Err"/"Urge" sound per word and if there is
one it is usually in the first stressed syllable. It is very rare for
it to be in last syllable.
> >
> > It is much easier to follow this rule than to try and figure
> > out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable in multiple
> > syllable words, such as "wanderer" and "furniture".

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Steve
> > I will add Refer, Occur, Infer, Allure and figure to the
> > exception list.
> > Also Reefer refer, makes for a nice minimal pair.
>
> "Figure" takes 'array'.
>
> Hugh B

Hi Cossyrosario (is that your real name?)

> I know Shavian is intended for English, and not to function as the
> International Phonetic Alphabet. However, in English, we do use
> French, Spanish, Italian words, not to mention Scottish, German, etc.
>
> Quikscript has four extra characters, one of which signifies the ch as
> in the Scottish word loch, or the German name Bach. Another signifies
> ll as in the Spanish llama, which, I take it, is like the gl in the
> Italian article gli. The Portuguese have a similar sound in lhe.
>
> To return from Quikscript to Shavian, how would we express
>
> (1) the ch of loch and
> (2) the ll of llama in Shavian?

I'd pronounce 'loch' as simply 'lock' (lok), and 'llama' as 'lama' (lyma).

> Also, I don't find anything either in Quikscript or in Shavian for the
> pure nasal as in "Bon jour!" In "bon" the o is nasalized, thus the n
> is not a consonant. The Shavian n stands for the consonant n as in
> bonfire. We use n in non-phonetic English for want of another way to
> express nasalization. "Bon jour!" is not the only phrase with the
> nasal n. "Bon voyage!" is a farewell quite comfortably used in
> English when seeing off someone on a cruise or a long trip. I'm sure
> there are other examples. Which brings me to my third question:
>
> (3) How does one write "Bon voyage!" in Shavian?

I'd write it as most native English speakers would pronounce it - [bon
vqyZ].

Basically, Shavian was built for English, just like Cyrillic was built for
Russian. If the majority of the people in the country don't ever say those
rare foreign sounds, there's no need for Shavian to represent them if the
'nearest match' is good enough.

Hugh B

I think Cossyrosario is new on this list - if so, welcome - what's your name,
where are you, what dialect area of English do you come from?

Cossyrosario asks about the Shaw alphabetization of words like loch and bon
voyage. In linguistics class a long time ago, I learned to call these odd
sounds "marginal phonemes" - sounds that some speakers have and some don't.

The loch or Bach sound is one an English speaker is likely to have only if he
speaks Scots or German. I think it could be represented as kick-ha.

The "bon voyage" vowel - see also lingerie, chaise longe, ahnvelope,
sahntimeter, and I've even heard ahnchilida - abominations, all of them - is a very
variable nasal vowel. English speakers who have the sound at all have only a
single nasal vowel. (Some French speakers have three, some four - un bon vin
blanc, on prend un bon bain.) I see no satisfactory way to represent it in the
Shaw alphabet. We could invent an orthographic convention for it if we wanted to,
such as awe-ha-nun.

And then there was once a country song that began "I wanted to write you, but
I couldn't spell pffft" -- and I think we can do without a Shaw symbol for
the marginal phoneme variously termed a razzberry, a Bronx cheer, or a bird.

Emoticons or Smileys in Shavian, anyone?

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC
P.S. - This group badly needs a speaker of Indian English - can anybody
recruit one?

On 1/21/05 12:59 PM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Cossyrosario (is that your real name?)
> I'd pronounce 'loch' as simply 'lock' (lok), and 'llama' as 'lama' (lyma).

It may be important to distinguish the English word "llama", referring to
the animal, from the Spanish word with the same spelling, which translates
as "name". But this sound is not found in English.

Actually, I thought this special letter in Quikscript was intended for
spelling the Welsh lateral fricative "ll", not the Spanish sound. This
would make more sense to me, at least.

> I'd write it as most native English speakers would pronounce it - [bon
> vqyZ].

I would simply write them in Roman, since these expressions are purely
French, even if they have been assimilated. When I say them, I pronounce
them the French way, so that's the way I'd spell them. Of course, there's
always the option of diacritics and such, but I won't drag that back up.

> Basically, Shavian was built for English, just like Cyrillic was built for
> Russian. If the majority of the people in the country don't ever say those
> rare foreign sounds, there's no need for Shavian to represent them if the
> 'nearest match' is good enough.
>
> Hugh B

Exactly

Regards,
Joe
/JO

On 1/21/05 2:10 PM, "RSRICHMOND@..." <RSRICHMOND@...> wrote:

> I think Cossyrosario is new on this list - if so, welcome - what's your name,
> where are you, what dialect area of English do you come from?
>
> Cossyrosario asks about the Shaw alphabetization of words like loch and bon
> voyage. In linguistics class a long time ago, I learned to call these odd
> sounds "marginal phonemes" - sounds that some speakers have and some don't.
>
> The loch or Bach sound is one an English speaker is likely to have only if he
> speaks Scots or German. I think it could be represented as kick-ha.
>
This would create a digraph, which contradicts the purpose of Shavian.
>
> The "bon voyage" vowel - see also lingerie, chaise longe, ahnvelope,
> sahntimeter, and I've even heard ahnchilida - abominations, all of them - is a
> very variable nasal vowel. English speakers who have the sound at all have
> only a single nasal vowel. (Some French speakers have three, some four - un
> bon vin blanc, on prend un bon bain.) I see no satisfactory way to represent
> it in the Shaw alphabet. We could invent an orthographic convention for it if
> we wanted to, such as awe-ha-nun.
>
If were were to use modifier letters, we should keep them all in agreement.
It we put ha-ha after kick, then we shouldn¹t put it before nun. And while
we¹re modifying letters, we might as well use diacritics to keep them
distinct.
>
> And then there was once a country song that began "I wanted to write you, but
> I couldn't spell pffft" -- and I think we can do without a Shaw symbol for the
> marginal phoneme variously termed a razzberry, a Bronx cheer, or a bird.
>
I¹ve never heard that song, and I also haven¹t heard many of those names for
what I generally would call a raspberry. Interesting information.
>
> Emoticons or Smileys in Shavian, anyone?
>
In fact, there are Shavian emoticons! I can¹t remember who made them, but
I¹ve also come up with a few of my own. I¹ve been looking around, but I
can¹t find the list now. :l

Regards,
Joe
/JO

Hi Joe
I don't think we should add foreign Phonemes to Shavian.
Once a foreign word is absorbed in to English, it generally has an
English prnunciation. For example, in English, a candy can be called
a Bon Bon. Pronounced and spelt byn byn in Shaw.
And voyage is vqeJ.

I suppose we could add a letter to represent any unpronouncable or
foreign sound. Say for example x for any odd non-english vowel
and X for any odd non-english Consonant
So you could say it is pronounced "lYX"
or "vqxZ"
But I wouldn't go beyond that. That's what IPA is for.
Regards, PAul V.

____________________________attached_________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
> On 1/21/05 2:10 PM, "RSRICHMOND@a..." <RSRICHMOND@a...> wrote:
>
> > I think Cossyrosario is new on this list - if so, welcome -
what's your name,
> > where are you, what dialect area of English do you come from?
> >
> > Cossyrosario asks about the Shaw alphabetization of words like
loch and bon
> > voyage. In linguistics class a long time ago, I learned to call
these odd
> > sounds "marginal phonemes" - sounds that some speakers have and
some don't.
> >
> > The loch or Bach sound is one an English speaker is likely to
have only if he
> > speaks Scots or German. I think it could be represented as kick-
ha.
> >
> This would create a digraph, which contradicts the purpose of
Shavian.
> >
> > The "bon voyage" vowel - see also lingerie, chaise longe,
ahnvelope,
> > sahntimeter, and I've even heard ahnchilida - abominations, all
of them - is a
> > very variable nasal vowel. English speakers who have the sound at
all have
> > only a single nasal vowel. (Some French speakers have three, some
four - un
> > bon vin blanc, on prend un bon bain.) I see no satisfactory way
to represent
> > it in the Shaw alphabet. We could invent an orthographic
convention for it if
> > we wanted to, such as awe-ha-nun.
> >
> If were were to use modifier letters, we should keep them all in
agreement.
> It we put ha-ha after kick, then we shouldn¹t put it before nun.
And while
> we¹re modifying letters, we might as well use diacritics to keep
them
> distinct.
> >
> > And then there was once a country song that began "I wanted to
write you, but
> > I couldn't spell pffft" -- and I think we can do without a Shaw
symbol for the
> > marginal phoneme variously termed a razzberry, a Bronx cheer, or
a bird.
> >
> I¹ve never heard that song, and I also haven¹t heard many of those
names for
> what I generally would call a raspberry. Interesting information.
> >
> > Emoticons or Smileys in Shavian, anyone?
> >
> In fact, there are Shavian emoticons! I can¹t remember who made
them, but
> I¹ve also come up with a few of my own. I¹ve been looking around,
but I
> can¹t find the list now. :l
>
> Regards,
> Joe
> /JO

I never suggested adding new letters. My suggestion is to write foreign
expressions in their original script or as they're pronounced in English if
they've been totally assimilated.

As I've said, the other methods would work, but they go against Shaw's
intents for the Shavian alphabet.


On 1/21/05 4:06 PM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Joe
> I don't think we should add foreign Phonemes to Shavian.
> Once a foreign word is absorbed in to English, it generally has an
> English prnunciation. For example, in English, a candy can be called
> a Bon Bon. Pronounced and spelt byn byn in Shaw.
> And voyage is vqeJ.
>
> I suppose we could add a letter to represent any unpronouncable or
> foreign sound. Say for example x for any odd non-english vowel
> and X for any odd non-english Consonant
> So you could say it is pronounced "lYX"
> or "vqxZ"
> But I wouldn't go beyond that. That's what IPA is for.
> Regards, PAul V.