Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 00:45:41 #
Subject: Recycling on hold
Toggle Shavian
Hi Hugh
"I'll Lay off, McDuff, but I'll be damned if I cry, 'Hold, Enough!'"
Motion to adjourn, seconded.
Thanks for the information on Lionel Ghoti.
Sounds as if we don't know what happened to him.
But Dr. Richmond seems to know who he is.
I am reading between the lines, of course.
Lot of good stuff, in the old postings.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. The old postings should have the words "from the Archive",
in the subject line.
________________attached____________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> Paul
> There is no need to resubmit the old postings here. The solution
I'm looking
> for is copying the messages over from the old list via Yahoo. Doing
it via
> copy+paste easily confuses people into thinking they're new
postings.
>
> Hugh B
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 01:47:13 #
Subject: Re: Introducing Simon Barne from the Archive
Toggle Shavian
One our original contributors,
Simon Barne has closed down his Shavian Website and has re-invented
himself at www.englishdroid.com.
Regards, Paul V
___________________attached______________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> From: "Simon Barne" <simonbarne@e...>
> Date: Sat May 15, 1999 10:40 am
> Subject: [shavian] Hello from a new member
>
> gUd dE
> F SUd lFk t intradVs mFself Az a nV membD f H grMp. (iz His H dun
> TiN?)
>
> F hAv bIn fAsinEtid bF /SEvWn sins lxniN v it wFl liviN
in /tAnzanW.
> not hAviN muc Akses t bUks, let alOn H intDnet - F didant hAv a
> telafOn P Ivan ilektrisiti - F kUd not fFnd Qt veri muc abQt it.
> lyst jC F ritxnd t /britan, but hAv jet t mIt eniwun hM hAz Ivan
hxd
> v /SEvWn. evribodi TiNks Fm a krANk. sO F Am rilIvd t diskuvD F Am
> not alOn...
>
> bikoz v lAk v prAktis, F Am stil a novis. mF mEn problam iz
kanfVziN
> H vXWs pXz (r-l; m-n; x-X; E-F; y-Y) n in pDtikVlD a-o-e-A. YlHO H
> Alfabet hAz sum namonik fIcDz, F sumtFmz wundD if sxtan letDz R
Just
> tM similD. F nevD hAv eni difikalti ramembriN I, fP instans.
>
> eniwE, His iz Just t sE helO. apolaJiz fP eni mistEks.
>
> /sFman /bRn
From: RSRICHMOND@...
Date: 2004-11-15 05:10:23 #
Subject: Re: Lionel Ghoti - Biography
Toggle Shavian
Paul Vandenbrink suspects that I may have some more biographical information
about Lionel Ghoti, but I don't.
I've subscribed to the new ShawAlphabet list. - For the new people on the
list who don't know me - I'm a 65 year old pathologist in private practice in
Gastonia, North Carolina (west of Charlotte). I learned the Shaw Alphabet from
the book in the early 1960's, and used it mostly as a personal cipher. In the
mid-80's I designed what I think was the first computer Shaw Alphabet font, a
very primitive bit-mapped font called GBShaw, which I posted as a freeware item
on a number of public resources between 1988 and 1995, and from there it got
into some font collections. It's of only historical interest now, of course.
I'm a rather elderly speaker of Central-Western North American English, fully
rhotic, with a fully phonemic contrast between /w/ and /hw/, but with no
distinction between 'awe' and 'on', so that 'father' and 'bother' rime exactly.
I've always been interested in languages, and have a basic knowledge of
phonetics and the International Phonetic Alphabet. I am a fluent non-native speaker of
German, less fluent in Spanish and French. I believe that we should not
change the original Shaw Alphabet, and that you should write the way you speak and
not attempt to conform to a standardized pronunciation or Shavian orthography.
I maintain some rather dated Shaw Alphabet Web pages. To find the site map
for my personal Web site, look up 'arctoplasty' (the repair of a bear - I
invented the word) in Google.
Bob Richmond
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 05:54:28 #
Subject: Re: I'm just now joining this group.
Toggle Shavian
Hi Jerry
Thanks for the information. It tends to confirm my supposition that
most Americans who were successful in making good use of the Shaw
Alphabet (i.e. writing) had some Phonetics background or were
intimately familar with British English Pronunciation.
I, myself just happened to pick up a 2d hand copy of the Bi-
Alphabetic copy of "Androcles and the Lion" in an old book-store
in Calgary back in 1971. It was an Orange Penguin Paperback. I was a
fan of the Plays of GBS, so I attempted to read it. Certain sound
distinction that it made, I did not immediately pick up on. But over
the years, I gradually learned to distinguish all the different
Phonemes, except for Ah and On. Those two sounds really don't sound
different to me, so I generally just use the letter "ah". But it took
me 2 years to reach that level of competence. Luckily, I took a basic
Linguistics at the University of Calgary, in 1972 and that clarified
most of English Phonetic sounds. Most the course was on English
Phonetics. I ended up using a subset of the Shaw Alphabet as my
personal Shorthand, for many years. Some things only became crystal
clear when I finally talked to the people here at the forum.
Pronunciation is little more old fashioned in Western Canada. We have
a lot of expatriate Americans, so I heard a bit of everything,
growing up.
I think it was around 10-15% Americans when I was growing up.
I probably say something close to a drawn out "arz" for "ours", but
it becomes 2 syllables when I say, "hours" (ow-erz). It rhymes with
flowers.
We have nice Ikonboard Forum here, that Hugh Birkenhead of the group
set up, where we can post messages back and forth in the Shaw
Alphabet.
The Keyboard Mapping is pretty consistent, we just use the Upper case
Roman Key Letters to represent the extra letters in the Shaw
Alphabet, as the Shaw Alphabet uses a Namer dot instead of Capitals
anyway.
To get to the Ikonboard go to www.shavian.org and click on NEW Hugh
Birkenhead Forum. Then go to the Shaw Chat section.
For you to see the Shaw letters instead of their Roman letter
equivalents, you have to download the Shaw 2 Font, but there is an
option to do that right on www.shavian.org screen next to the Hugh
Birkenhead Forum. I would think it would work on the Library
Computer, but you will have to try it out to be sure.
Give it a try.
Anyway, you can see what's already posted on the Ikon bulletin board.
Until you know the Shaw Keyboard Mapping, it might be helpful to see
it in the equivalent Roman letters. Take a look and see if you can
make sense of it all.
Let me know if you any other questions on how to use it.
I try and post something there every 2 or 3 days to keep my hand in,
so I am sure we can get a coversation going.
Thanks again, Paul V.
________________________attached___________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I found it very easy to learn Shavian phonetics. I'd known the IPA
for many years, and also had studied Latin, German and some Russian,
so I was acquainted with unusual pronunciations.
>
> Usually, my correspondents, even Henry Kirchner, of Dallas, Texas,
wrote Shaw-Script in accordance with a British pronunciation, and I
followed suit, even though I didn't pronounce words that way. In my
dialect, the word "ours" rhymes with "stars," just as it does in the
old song "Home On The Range" where those two words end rhyming lines.
>
> Also, in my dialect the words "merry," "marry" and "Mary" are
homophones. Although I've forgotten many of the colloquial
pronunciations that I'd heard my mother use, over 60 years ago, the
part of my native dialect that survives doesn't seem to strike people
as unusual anywhere I travel in the US or the parts of Canada I've
visited, especially lower Ontario.
>
> However it's been interesting to observe how English is pronounced
in some other parts of the world.
>
> I used Shaw-Script to make pronunciation notes in a French class I
took around 30 years ago, because it was much easier to write than
the IPA.
>
> I hope I can access Shaw-Script on the Library computers that I
use. They happen to be "fixed" to "lock out" accessing of the Dvorak
Simplified keyboard, something that I'd rather use than qwerty.
>
> Jerry
>
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 06:19:25 #
Subject: Re: Lionel Ghoti - Biography
Toggle Shavian
Hi Bob
Sorry, if I implied you were the custodian of the Secret Identity
of Herr Lionel Ghoti, but I noticed you picked on the whimsical
nature of name and I assumed that over the years you had picked some
hints as to he was.
Maybe shared experiances or people that you knew in common.
Anyway, sorry if I went over the line.
One can't help wondering who and where are benefactor is.
Hugh provided some information but it seems to have deepened the
mystery.
I guess we will all just have to assume that he had his reasons.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I hope you like the new Forum.
P.P.S. Excuse me for asking but do you make a vowel distinction
between the words "Doc" and "Dawg". Dawg as in Deputy Dawg or "Dogma".
Also can you distinguish the sound of the "ah" letter from the "on"
letter. The "Ah" sound is still retained in a few, older American
words, "Amen", Psalms, Alms, Palm, Dogma, Espionage, Drama, Trauma.
P.P.P.S. I expect that you also were exposed to British Accented
English in Germany when you were growing up there. I believe it is
the norm in Europe. When people learn English, they tend to take on
the accent of the nearest English population. Obviously, the greater
the distance apart the less likely this would hold true.
________________________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Paul Vandenbrink suspects that I may have some more biographical
information
> about Lionel Ghoti, but I don't.
>
> I've subscribed to the new ShawAlphabet list. - For the new people
on the
> list who don't know me - I'm a 65 year old pathologist in private
practice in
> Gastonia, North Carolina (west of Charlotte). I learned the Shaw
Alphabet from
> the book in the early 1960's, and used it mostly as a personal
cipher. In the
> mid-80's I designed what I think was the first computer Shaw
Alphabet font, a
> very primitive bit-mapped font called GBShaw, which I posted as a
freeware item
> on a number of public resources between 1988 and 1995, and from
there it got
> into some font collections. It's of only historical interest now,
of course.
>
> I'm a rather elderly speaker of Central-Western North American
English, fully
> rhotic, with a fully phonemic contrast between /w/ and /hw/, but
with no
> distinction between 'awe' and 'on', so that 'father' and 'bother'
rime exactly.
> I've always been interested in languages, and have a basic
knowledge of
> phonetics and the International Phonetic Alphabet. I am a fluent
non-native speaker of
> German, less fluent in Spanish and French. I believe that we should
not change the original Shaw Alphabet, and that you should write the
way you speak and
> not attempt to conform to a standardized pronunciation or Shavian
orthography.
>
> I maintain some rather dated Shaw Alphabet Web pages. To find the
site map
> for my personal Web site, look up 'arctoplasty' (the repair of a
bear - I
> invented the word) in Google.
>
> Bob Richmond
From: stbetta@...
Date: 2004-11-15 06:31:28 #
Subject: History of Keyboard Mapping
Toggle Shavian
Keyboard Mapping
This 1999 posting gives the history of the unigraphic keyboard positons that
are still used by most of the Shavian fonts.
Here is a 1999 web page, created around the time of this posting, which
includes
clickable sounds files
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/saunds-eng2.html
I had forgotten about this page. It also includes ANJeL.
The issue was making a unigraphic representation of English speech sounds fit
the available keyboard and still be recognized as English words and easy to
remember.
The desire to limit the keyboard to ASCII characters and to have enough
keyboard positions to handle over 40 sound signs led to a mixed cap notation.
John Malone pioneered this approach in 1950 with the development of Unifon.
[www.unifon.org]. Since you don't have the font installed, this graphic will
display as keyboard unifon. Display Unifon is a jpg graphic.
Unifon
one-soundDa kwik brqn foks jumpt Ovcr EK Tin dxg, lCk qt, I Sqtcd tU hur, fOr
hEz fQld yU cgen.
Keyboard Unifon, like Keyboard Shavian, was not particularly concerned with
the readability of the keyboard positions. The symbol system was readable for
consonants and for ten long and short vowels. 32 symbols were readable
because they generally matched the traditional assignments but there were 7 more
phonemes that needed to have assigned keys. These assignments were arbitrary.
Shavian compounded the problem by adding 8 more sound signs for sound
combinations.
ENgliS, with its schwa-a, is not significantly better than Unifon.
Da kwik brown fcks jvmpd Ovar EC Tin Dog,
lwk owt, I Sowtad, for hEz foild U agen.'
Cap S and C are not automatically identified with the digraphs Sh and Ch
so it takes some time to recognized unigraphic words.
Shavian would be keyed in the following way
H kwik br
If this correspondence chart does not show up, it can be found at
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/spanglish-ita-red-16.gif
--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> From: "Lionel Ghoti" <ghoti@d...>
> Date: Wed May 19, 1999 4:23 pm
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Keyboard Shavian
>
> Lionel Ghoti [pseudonym] wrote: The keyboard mapping pattern for the
Shavian
> fonts was devised, as far I know, by Ross DeMeyere
> (http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/info.html), and was first used
> in his Shaw Rough and Shaw Gothic fonts. These were the first
> Shavian fonts to be widely used, and the first Shavian content on
> the web used these fonts. For compatibility's sake, all subsequently
created
> fLG: onts have used the same mapping pattern. When I made my Lionspaw font,
I > considered using a different mapping
> pattern, and I came up with a new pattern which I think featured a
> few improvements over the old one; but I still couldn't find a way
> to avoid having some arbitrary phoneme-grapheme correspondences, and
> I didn't feel that the few improvements the new pattern could make
> would justify making the change and causing all the biliteral
> problems that would follow.
> LG: I think your Unigraf mapping pattern is the best I've seen, and I found
that I could read your sample text very quickly. I find that its Roman text
can be read much more intuitively than the current "keyboard Shavian"; and I
think it would be much easier to learn to type using your system.
> LG: However, I fear that some of the new correspondences which appear
> intuitive to me (since I'm familiar with the International Phonetic
> Alphabet) might seem overly arbitrary (perhaps more arbitrary than
> their values in current keyboard Shavian)
> to someone who doesn't know the IPA. For example, you use an X for
> the /dh/ phoneme.
SB: [X was used because it is as close as we can get to the crossed-D <ð>,
a character in Old English, Icelandic, ITA and PMF and one that I think
should be revied.]
> I find this easy to remember because it looks like the top half of
> the IPA symbol for that phoneme (like a lower-case d, but with its
> ascender curling over to the left and crossed with a small diagaonal
> line). But someone who has never come across the IPA would probably
> find it somewhat easier to remember the current key combination, H,
> since an h is always present when the /dh/ phoneme is represented in
> the Roman alphabet.
> I think we should keep in mind that the Shavian alphabet is about
> alphabet reform, not mere spelling reform: Shavian text is meant to
> be read using its own letters, not those of the Roman alphabet.
SB: Shavians often write as if there is no way to salvage the Roman alphabet.
I think there are several ways this can be done.
ð ónly wûn ðat is not týpograficly chalènjd iz wûn ðat yúzez díagrafiks.
> The only real difficulty I have in communicating in
> Shavian is _typing_ it using my QWERTY
> keyboard, trying to remember which key corresponds to which Shavian
> letter. I put this down to lack of practice
The only sound-signs that I have trouble with are the arbitrary ones.
yY xX P D, etc. There is a logic to Read's shapes that is lacking from the
keyboard verison.
> If there didn't already exist on the Internet a fair amount of
> Shavian text using the current key-mapping, I'd readily change the
> mapping of my font to use your Unigraf system, and I'd urge all the
> other Shavian font designers to do likewise. At this point in time,
> however, as the Shavian alphabet is only just beginning to set down
> its electronic roots on the Internet, I think it would be dangerous
> to cause confusion to any new Shavian acolytes by introducing a
> second mapping pattern. If someone unwittingly tried to read some
> pattern-x text in a pattern-y font, the experience might put them
> off Shavian for life.
SB: The spirit of Shavian involves making available a parallel system of
sound signs. This would include having a parallel keyboard version as well, I
would think.
> LG: I don't think all of the Shavian content providers would agree by
> consensus to change the ASCII-coding of their Shavian text. Only a
> few months ago, it was suggested that the "huNG" and "Ha-ha" glyphs
> had mistakenly been switched in the production of the alphabet table
> of _Androcles and the Lion_, and that they should be switched back
> immediately in all of the current Shavian fonts before anyone else
> noticed. The online Shavian community rebelled, and a terrible rift
> threatened. Tears were shed, catty things were said, and a punch-up
> was avoided only by the fact that none of us knows where anyone else
> lives. The general consensus was that the alphabet should be left as
> it has been since the Sixties.
> Granted, you're not talking about changing the alphabet itself, but
> I would guess that the general consensus would be opposed to any
> sort of change which would affect the readability of the existing
> Shavian content on the web.
SB: The goal, of course, is to improve the readability of keyboard Shavian.
A standard is important but this does not preclude having options.
There should be no change in Classic Shavian or Classic Unifon
but we should experiment with possible improvements.
> ----- Original Message -----
Steve wrote:
> Sent: 12 May 1999 12:41 am
> Subject: [shavian] Keyboard Shavian
> > Where does keyboard Shavian come from? It is used on all of the
> > Shavian fonts that I am aware of.
> > I think that keyboard Shavian, the ascii text that appears on the
> screen before the font is applied, can be improved.
> > The question is whether or not the improvement is significant
> > enough to be worth the problem of chancing existing font development
> > conventions.
> > 90% of keyboard Shavian is intelligible. The other 10% appears to
> be rather arbirary phoneme-grapheme correspondences.
> > An improvement in the rationality and readability of keyboard
> Shavian is probably limited to about 5%. The R-combinations will
> always remain arbitrary. However, D and P could be replaced with ar and or.
> > I would also like to add ligatures in Shavian for syllabic LMN in
> > addition to R as in "hR litL colM cAm fRst."
From: stbetta@...
Date: 2004-11-15 06:51:12 #
Subject: ha-hung reversal other errors
Toggle Shavian
Paul, Star, Richard, Ross, and others
There are several clerical errors in A&L Shavian.
P.A.D. McCarthy and K. Read were aware that they had been made but evidently
concluded that it was too much trouble to correct them.
The ha-hung reversal is only problematic in the teaching of Shavian.
ha shows up on the chart as a voiced consonant.
The more serious error is the composite sound signs for
air and er. eh is defined as a rounded L but eh+ih+r doesn't follow.
Read made the correction with the publication of QuickScript.
When this came up a few years ago on Shavian, it was the decision of the
majority of
members to not correct the transposition error.
The sound-symbol correspondences would remain the same as published in
Androcles and the Lion.
The decision is similar to the one made with traditional spelling. Yes, we
know that many spellings are wrong but it is too much trouble to correct them.
I also think that classical Shavian should not be changed. .... altho the
proposed changes only affect two sound signs and two composite sound signs.
Given the low frequency of these particular sound-signs, this amounts to about a
1% change.
--Steve
Compact tricodal correspondence chart
If not viewable go to www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian.gif
Hey, this is new to me. If it has survived all of these iterations,
then it's right. Right? I'm with you, I wonder if it might be best to
leave as is.
--Star
--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
>
> From: rsrichmond@...
> Date: Sun Mar 21, 1999 5:10 pm
> Subject: [shavian] changing "ha-ha" and "hung"
>
> Uh-oh, we've got a serious problem here.
>
> Ross DeMeyere writes:
> >>Last week I received a letter from David Fox at the
> Friars in the UK. He brought to my attention that in
> the original reading key someone made a clerical error
> and swapped the characters for hung and haha.<<
>
> DeMeyere has then gone on, single-handed, to make a change in his
> font for the Shaw Alphabet.
From: helloworld@...
Date: 2004-11-15 08:41:47 #
Subject: Who's got gf13.zip?
Toggle Shavian
...which according to the way back archive is the install for the redoubtable Fish's Ghoti
Fingers Talking Typewriter. For them's what have it, how does it's mapping of Shavian fonts
to QWERTY shape up as a plausible standard, relative to alternative schemas the more
eruditer and stricter phonemicians among the group would have us great unwashed immerse
ourselves in?
'Cos if it's a reasonable approximation of being a good enough implementation, it has the
considerable advantage of being able to be used as a learning tool par excellence, since GF
allows one to have shavian script machine enunciated, even with personalised voice fonts if
persons with too much time on their hands, or other inclinations to perversity, should so
choose to use.
Will us neophytes be going far wrong down the road to linguistics perdition if we use Ghoti
Fingers as our guide? Which is another way of wondering if the Great Lionel's schema could
be the de facto standard until someone improves on his reader, delivering the same
functionality with perhaps more sound phoneticality. Shameful pun I know, and even more
deplorable neoligising. So shoot me.
Cheers,
Antipo-Dan
-------------------------------------------
Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now
From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 13:56:03 #
Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] Re: Lionel Ghoti - Biography
Toggle Shavian
> The "Ah" sound is still retained in a few, older American
> words, "Amen", Psalms, Alms, Palm, Dogma, Espionage, Drama, Trauma.
"Dogma" takes 'on' like every other word with short 'o' in it.
"Trauma" takes 'awe', just like "faucet", "cause", etc.
Hugh B
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
Date: 2004-11-15 16:20:30 #
Subject: Difficulties of Shavian Vowels for Americans
Toggle Shavian
Hi Hugh
Another troubling situatuation where the American pronunciation is
different.
According to the Cambridge Interactive Dictionary of American
English, Dogma can be pronounced with either the "ah" sound or
the "awe".
dogma
dog is always just pronounced with the "awe" vowel sound.
Also "trauma" as you said is usually just pronounced with the "awe"
vowel sound.
I quite like the the Online Cambridge Dictionary. When you click on
the phonetic transcription of a word, it shows a Diagram of all the
English Phonemes and you see that the symbol for the "on" (sock) as
flagged in Red, as only used in British Pronunciation.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I corrected the examples in the attached note, but of course I
don't know what to put for the short "o". Who would guess that
American pronunciation wouldn't have a Short "o".
P.P.S. I found a couple more American pronounced examples
using "ah", first "o" of Homonym and calm, but "ah" is not the big
problem.
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > The "Ah" sound is still retained in a few, older American
> > words, "Amen", Psalms, Alms, Palm, Dogma, Espionage, TV Drama,
Homonym, Calm, Brahms
> "Dogma" takes 'on' like every other word with short 'o' in it like
on.
> "Trauma" takes 'awe', just like "faucet", "cause", etc.
>
> Hugh B