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Hello -- Lionel Ghoti here. Aren't there any Shavian transliterators
about yet? I did build one a few years ago, and offered it up to
anyone on the group who felt like trying it out, but it was largely
dismissed because it required the user to install the Borland database
engine (largely due to my lack of programming experience). It didn't
have a dictionary of 60,000 words: as I remember, it started with a
dictionary of 0 words and I started feeding it with every word it
didn't recognise. It's surprising how quickly you build up a decent
list of spelling-pairs.

If anyone's interested, I will try and dig out the program, but for
the time being the Borland database engine would be required.

Florid regards,

Lionel Ghoti


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Why not build a converter that will auto convert plain text into
Shavian.
> That would certainly be a quicker and more accurate way to achieve
your goal.
>
> The first step in building a converter is to provide the Shavian
equivalent
> in ASCII of 60,000 words. The hard transcriptions should be posted
on this
> discussion group.
>
> --Steve

Lionel, Carl, Hugh, Paul, and others,

GOAL: To make more literature available in Shavian transcription.

I have a PERL script that works with an Apache server. It is essentially a
simple lookup table. It works with a large common delimited text file in the
following format:
emotion, ImOSan east,Ist eastern, IstDn:

The script would have to be tweaked to work with a different server.

It might be easier to rework a font so it matches Unifon. The problem with
this option is that Unifon does not have the ligatures and combinations found
in Shavian. Right now, Eastern would have to be matched Estcrn rather than
IstDn.

Many here said that this was more than a ligature since they did not consider
D to be equivalent to ar. In their minds, D was non-rhotic. --Steve
Hello -- Lionel Ghoti here. Aren't there any Shavian transliterators
about yet? I did build one a few years ago, and offered it up to
anyone on the group who felt like trying it out, but it was largely
dismissed because it required the user to install the Borland database
engine (largely due to my lack of programming experience). It didn't
have a dictionary of 60,000 words: as I remember, it started with a
dictionary of 0 words and I started feeding it with every word it
didn't recognise. It's surprising how quickly you build up a decent
list of spelling-pairs.

If anyone's interested, I will try and dig out the program, but for
the time being the Borland database engine would be required.

Florid regards,

Lionel Ghoti


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Why not build a converter that will auto convert plain text into
Shavian.
> That would certainly be a quicker and more accurate way to achieve
your goal.
>
> The first step in building a converter is to provide the Shavian
equivalent
> in ASCII of 60,000 words. The hard transcriptions should be posted
on this
> discussion group.
>
> --Steve


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
mailto:sbett@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

what about the homonyms? PERfect vs. perFECT ect?

--Star

--- lghoti <ghoti@...> wrote:

>
> Hello -- Lionel Ghoti here. Aren't there any Shavian transliterators
> about yet? I did build one a few years ago, and offered it up to
> anyone on the group who felt like trying it out, but it was largely
> dismissed because it required the user to install the Borland
> database
> engine (largely due to my lack of programming experience). It didn't
> have a dictionary of 60,000 words: as I remember, it started with a
> dictionary of 0 words and I started feeding it with every word it
> didn't recognise. It's surprising how quickly you build up a decent
> list of spelling-pairs.
>
> If anyone's interested, I will try and dig out the program, but for
> the time being the Borland database engine would be required.
>
> Florid regards,
>
> Lionel Ghoti
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > Carl,
> >
> > Why not build a converter that will auto convert plain text into
> Shavian.
> > That would certainly be a quicker and more accurate way to achieve
> your goal.
> >
> > The first step in building a converter is to provide the Shavian
> equivalent
> > in ASCII of 60,000 words. The hard transcriptions should be posted
> on this
> > discussion group.
> >
> > --Steve
>
>
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

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One solution, this is the Unifon solution

noun verb
1st syl 2nd syl stress
-------- -------------
perfakt parfekt
rebal rìbel/rabel
objakt abjekt

The other solution is to mark stress
'reb&l ri'bel


what about the homonyms? PERfect vs. perFECT ect?

--Star
Steve T. Bett.
Austin, Texas

www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett

New member, joined this evening, translator, belong to other yahoo
(Swiftian, surely?) groups. Posting now because I don't want to lurk for a
month or search the archives for even longer (pity they can't be lumped for
downloading) to know what is going on. Bought my copy of Androcles at
Smiths in Kingsway in 1962 for 3s.6d.

I'd like to try some of the CAT tools I use in translation work to build up
a Translation Memory database for Shavian. First attempts have shown this
is feasible and helped me learn (but not master) the CAT tools and
Shavian. I'll have to compromise about fonts. I liked the ASCII key
mapping. Shavian is now Unicode compliant, as are the CAT tools. The only
universal font I have does not have Shavian, nor do either of my Global
Writer editions. Wonder whether any OCR programs could be"taught" Shavian
-- Read I R I S seems the most likely. What about speech synthesis?
Is anyone else working on similar lines?

I use a PC. Most programs I need run under Windows. Some CAT tools now
work on (under?) Linux. And as BeOS is on the same machine I am pretty
well covered. For proofing translations an HTML 2-column format (source
--> target) is best. I can construct one for English --> Shavian if
anybody wants to see it.
John Burrows

I know that we can write the difference in shavian, this is not my
question. I am curious how a computer would understand the difference
in usage.

--Star

--- stbetta@... wrote:

> One solution, this is the Unifon solution
>
> noun verb
> 1st syl 2nd syl stress
> -------- -------------
> perfakt parfekt
> rebal r�bel/rabel
> objakt abjekt
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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Carl, Publishing of literature in Shavian would be a good idea.

But I was thinking more in pragmatic and useful course of action.

Like preparing children's instruction books to teach Shavian letters
gradually to kids.

Another good way is to publish a contemporary 8-page tabloid or
16-page magazine (say once a month) about world affairs (and not
necessarily about language issues) in Shavian.

An interactive website (online) in Shavian.

A lot of popular culture tools can be used. I saw for example a
simple T-shirt that had some Shavian letters and I loved it. Everybody
was paying attention to what those letters were about...

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi garosalibian,
>
> One of the reasons you briefly touched on was that wasn't enough
literature in Shavian, for anyone to take it seriously. That mostly
has to do with the time and effort of tranliterating previously
written text into Shavian. Some people probably used that as an
excuse not to write prolifically in the Shavian Alphabet. As for me
when I have the opportunity to get established with all the necessary
equipment, I would like to publish as much of the public domain
literature as I possibly can in my lifetime. I encourge others to do
the same if so willing and able. Currently, I am willing, but due to
economics I am not able to publish literture into the Shavian Alphabet.
>
> Best of Regards,
>
> Carl
>
> garosalibian <garosalibian@y...> wrote:
>
> Quote from your introduction: ONE (capiotals from me) book, a
> bi-alphabetical version of "Androcles and the Lion" (cover shown left)
> was produced, with copies sent to LIBRARIES all over the
> English-speaking world. It was HOPED that the alphabet would gain
> support through its INHERENT benefits; despite attracting plenty of
> attention at the time, the alphabet SADLY faded into obscurity...
> Unquote
>
> One book? No further editions?
> To the "libraries" of the English speaking world. And they probably
> gave it the necesaary code, filed it on the stacks and never took a
> look at it...
> Hoped? No marketing needed? Advertisements? Some illustartions? You
> just hope and it is done?
>
> Conclusion? Not enough was done. "Androcles and the Lion" is not your
> day-to-day literature and I hadn't even read it in Latin letters, let
> alone be bothered to read it in Shavian....
>
> The point is, surely far more extensive literature should have been
> printed for the general public before the general public warmed up to
> the idea of Shavian's "inherent benefits".
>
> By dropping it after publishing Androcles, you have deprived millions
> of readers these "inherent benefits" by not giving them enough
materials.
>
> For the "man in the street", how about even an 8-page monthly
> bi-alphabetical tabloid or magazine giving us some contemporary news
> in Shavian.
>
> How about an illustrated children's guide to teach the average kid the
> basics.
>
> The Shavian movement has only itself to blame. Shaw must be turning in
> his grave seeing what has happened to his dream of reform.
>
> Probably English is still being written more or less the same way it
> was when Shaw's grand grand grand father was born!
>
> So much for inherent benefits.
> All "I" see is inherent benefits of TS and it's apparent staying power
> as it goes on happily not even changing one simple rule since
> Webster's "cosmetic" and very "symbolic" reform. And that was ages ago.
>
>
>
>
>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:53:07 -0800 (PST), Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> I know that we can write the difference in shavian, this is not my
> question. I am curious how a computer would understand the difference
> in usage.

It would have to have a basic understanding of how language (in this
case, English) works -- I think the field is called NLP (Natural
Language Processing). The sort of thing that's implemented in
automatic translation software, which also needs to figure out whether
a given word is a noun or a verb in order to produce the correct
translation -- or, more generally, what function each word has in a
given sentence.

It's not trivial.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Hi Star

It should be PERF-ect (Verb) vs per-FECT (Adjective)
which not only has a different syllable boundary but also a
distinct Shaw Spelling.

pxf-ekt ----- pD-fekt

There are going to be homonyms in Shavian, perhaps even more than T.O
In Shavian, won = one

Overall, it still will be miles ahead of T.O.

Regards, Paul V.


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> what about the homonyms? PERfect vs. perFECT ect?
>
> --Star
>
> --- lghoti <ghoti@n...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello -- Lionel Ghoti here. Aren't there any Shavian
transliterators
> > about yet? I did build one a few years ago, and offered it up to
> > anyone on the group who felt like trying it out, but it was
largely
> > dismissed because it required the user to install the Borland
> > database
> > engine (largely due to my lack of programming experience). It
didn't
> > have a dictionary of 60,000 words: as I remember, it started with
a
> > dictionary of 0 words and I started feeding it with every word it
> > didn't recognise. It's surprising how quickly you build up a
decent
> > list of spelling-pairs.
> >
> > If anyone's interested, I will try and dig out the program, but
for
> > the time being the Borland database engine would be required.
> >
> > Florid regards,
> >
> > Lionel Ghoti
> >
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > Why not build a converter that will auto convert plain text into
> > Shavian.
> > > That would certainly be a quicker and more accurate way to
achieve
> > your goal.
> > >
> > > The first step in building a converter is to provide the Shavian
> > equivalent
> > > in ASCII of 60,000 words. The hard transcriptions should be
posted
> > on this
> > > discussion group.
> > >
> > > --Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ====> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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paul vandenbrink said:
> Star Raven wrote:
>>
>> what about the homonyms? PERfect vs. perFECT ect?
>
> It should be PERF-ect (Verb) vs per-FECT (Adjective)
> which not only has a different syllable boundary but also a
> distinct Shaw Spelling.
>
> pxf-ekt ----- pD-fekt
>
> There are going to be homonyms in Shavian, perhaps even more
> than T.O In Shavian, won = one
>
> Overall, it still will be miles ahead of T.O.


This thread started out by suggesting that large amounts
of literature could be transcribed by using a computer
program and a look-up table. I believe Star's question
was how to handle these homonyms in a look-up table.
("one" vs. "won" is not a problem; only those which
can have a different stress.)

As someone else pointed out, natural language processing
in English is not trivial. I would suggest that the look-up
table simply have a flag on those words with more than one
Shavian transcription. The program which does the trans-
scription could flag those words in the output. Then a
human could select the correct spelling. Thus 95% (or more)
of the text would be automatic, with a minimal amount of
human intervention .

--Ph. D.