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Hi Joe and Steve
You are both right.
Certainly some tweaking could be done on Keyboard Shavian,
and secondly such tweaking should be based on phonetic, not T.O.
based relationships. The choice of Roman equivalents should be
internally consistent, and where-ever possible use the character that
is not inconsistent with Roman letter use.
And if the sound is different from one of it Roman Letter usages, it
is probably better, to use a Capitalized letter.
From a theoretically point of view lets see whaaat we could improve.

Given this,
one of the chaNGES IN ing-gliS struck a chord with me.
Using capital-Y to represent the eYe sound,
and using lower case y to map the Shaw Yea letter.
Altho having upper case Y (Capital-Y) represent Yew is also a
possibility.
But can anyone thing of appropriate Capital letters to represent
the Shaw Ah and Awe letter sounds. (I was thinking using Q or X for
them) Some of the
composite letters, Air, Urge, Oil, Our could certainly be bumped into
the Capitals)
Only the Our sound , and to lesser extent Air are even common English
speech sounds, anyway.
Anyway any other thoughts out there?

rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
____________________attached______________________________




--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
> I can manage with keyboard Shavian, but I¹m certain it could be
improved.
> But I think it¹s important to arrange the keys in a way that
doesn¹t obscure
> associations between letters as much as the current one. A mapping
based on
> ENgliS would be more readable without the font, but would lose these
> connections. For example, related letters could be paired like
this: a-u,
> e-E, A-F, i-I, etc., with the second on the shifted key. That¹s
just one
> possibility, anyway. I¹m not sure the tall-deep pairs are
necessary, but
> those could also be helpful. Putting e-I on one key, as in ENgliS,
makes no
> sense without reference to TO (or the historical origins of these
sounds,
> but most people don¹t know or care about that).
>
> Regards,
> Joe Spicer
> /JO spFsD
>
> P.S. I¹m currently in the process of switching to Dvorak, so I
know how
> hard it can be, but I¹m interested in making Shavian easier to
learn and
> more accessible to beginners. The ideas mentioned above would be
good, but
> anything that accomplishes this goal is worth considering.

That sounds like a good place to start. And while we're talking about
keyboard layouts, I just uploaded my Unicode Mac layout to the group
page. I've had some problems with it (including one crash), but I'll
try to fix that. I'm also working on converting some of the others.

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
GJOsef spFsD

On May 2, 2005, at 4:48 PM, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Joe and Steve
> You are both right.
> Certainly some tweaking could be done on Keyboard Shavian,
> and secondly such tweaking should be based on phonetic, not T.O.
> based relationships. The choice of Roman equivalents should be
> internally consistent, and where-ever possible use the character that
> is not inconsistent with Roman letter use.
> And if the sound is different from one of it Roman Letter usages, it
> is probably better, to use a Capitalized letter.
> From a theoretically point of view lets see whaaat we could improve.
>
> Given this,
> one of the chaNGES IN ing-gliS struck a chord with me.
> Using capital-Y to represent the eYe sound,
> and using lower case y to map the Shaw Yea letter.
> Altho having upper case Y (Capital-Y) represent Yew is also a
> possibility.
> But can anyone thing of appropriate Capital letters to represent
> the Shaw Ah and Awe letter sounds. (I was thinking using Q or X for
> them) Some of the
> composite letters, Air, Urge, Oil, Our could certainly be bumped into
> the Capitals)
> Only the Our sound , and to lesser extent Air are even common English
> speech sounds, anyway.
> Anyway any other thoughts out there?
>
> rigRdz, /pYl /vI.
> ____________________attached______________________________
>
>
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
>> I can manage with keyboard Shavian, but I¹m certain it could be
> improved.
>> But I think it¹s important to arrange the keys in a way that
> doesn¹t obscure
>> associations between letters as much as the current one. A mapping
> based on
>> ENgliS would be more readable without the font, but would lose these
>> connections. For example, related letters could be paired like
> this: a-u,
>> e-E, A-F, i-I, etc., with the second on the shifted key. That¹s
> just one
>> possibility, anyway. I¹m not sure the tall-deep pairs are
> necessary, but
>> those could also be helpful. Putting e-I on one key, as in ENgliS,
> makes no
>> sense without reference to TO (or the historical origins of these
> sounds,
>> but most people don¹t know or care about that).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Joe Spicer
>> /JO spFsD
>>
>> P.S. I¹m currently in the process of switching to Dvorak, so I
> know how
>> hard it can be, but I¹m interested in making Shavian easier to
> learn and
>> more accessible to beginners. The ideas mentioned above would be
> good, but
>> anything that accomplishes this goal is worth considering.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I prefer the Latin sound-symbol correspondences.
The idea behind the ENgliS keyboard map was to
make the code more transparent to tradspel adepts.

Da YdEa bEhYnd Da ENgliS kEbOrd map waz tw...

I don't think it was that successful.
paul vandenbrink wrote: (keyboard layouts)

> Hi Joe and Steve
> You are both right.
> Certainly some tweaking could be done on Keyboard Shavian,
> and secondly such tweaking should be based on phonetic, not T.O.
> based relationships.
It can be phonemic and based on the traditional vowel shifted orthography.
> The choice of Roman equivalents should be
> internally consistent, and where-ever possible use the character that
> is not inconsistent with Roman letter use.
> And if the sound is different from one of it Roman Letter usages, it
> is probably better, to use a Capitalized letter.
> From a theoretically point of view lets see whaaat we could improve.
>
> Given this,
> one of the chaNGES IN ing-gliS struck a chord with me.
> Using capital-Y to represent the eYe sound,
ENgliS uses Y for eYe. see www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm
> and using lower case y to map the Shaw Yea letter.
> Altho having upper case Y (Capital-Y) represent Yew is also a
> possibility.
> But can anyone thing of appropriate Capital letters to represent
> the Shaw Ah and Awe letter sounds. (I was thinking using Q or X for
> them)

That might work, Q is the British short o in SAMPA and the I have used it for
(ah).
as in pQt for pot.

Since the two sounds are related x and X might be better than y and Y.

Some of the
> composite letters, Air, Urge, Oil, Our could certainly be bumped into
> the Capitals)
It depends if you want to minimize the number of symbols or have a symbol for
every sound.
air = a&(r) or e&(r) marry vs merry.
urge = &&j or &&rj or ....
oil = awe + ihl

> Only the Our sound , and to lesser extent Air are even common English
> speech sounds, anyway. Anyway any other thoughts out there?
>
> rigRdz, /pYl /vI.

> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe Spicer <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
>> I can manage with keyboard Shavian, but I¹m certain it could be improved.
>> But I think it¹s important to arrange the keys in a way that
> doesn¹t obscure associations between letters as much as the current one. A
> map based on ENgliS would be more readable without the font, but would lose
> these connections. For example, related letters could be paired like
> this: a-u, e-E, A-F, i-I, etc., with the second on the shifted key. That¹s
> just one possibility, anyway. I¹m not sure the tall-deep pairs are
> necessary, but
>> those could also be helpful. Putting e-I on one key, as in ENgliS,
> makes no sense without reference to TO (or the historical origins of these
> sounds, but most people don¹t know or care about that).
ei = A in ENgliS ace = As or eis.
The capital letters generally are associated with shifted values found in the
traditional vowel letter names.
I¹m interested in making Shavian easier to learn and
>> more accessible to beginners. The ideas mentioned above would be
> good, but anything that accomplishes this goal is worth considering.
Joe, that was also my interest but I am not sure that an easier map means an
easier Shavian. My original goal was to avoid as many arbitrary assignments
as possible.
However, you always have a few arbitrary assignments.

Hi Steve
I still like the Shavian ideal of having one letter for every
commonly recognized sound in English.
I would'nt even be unhappy to see the Shaw Alphabet expanded to
include a letter for the WH sound and the Syllabic L sound (i.e.
girl, table, yellow, owl, furl, ale)
I also love the Dipthong letters, Yew and Vowel+R compound letters.
These are very common English sounds, and quite useful.
I am just suggesting that these generally less common compound
letters be relegated to the upper case (Capital Letters).
For example, you quite correctly point out the (x X) key is not well
served by the assignment of 2 of the less commonly used Shaw Letters.
(2 Vowel + R sounds) (e+r) & (the stressed er)
Where there is a useful correspondence, by all means keep the
current Key Mapping of plain/Capital letters.
So for example n=> none and N=> hung makes perfect sense.

I would like to see some proposals to this effect.
Unfortunately, I do not see how they can be implemented until
we are able to represent Shaw letters Directly
in our discussions/writings.

Since most of our writings show up in Roman letters, it is just
too confusing to sort out the 2 different mapping schemes in actual
correspondence. Perhaps if we make minimal changes to the non-
capitalized letter and preserve multiple keys, so there would be
more redundancy. (i.e. leave lowercase j to represent Yea as well as
lowercase y)

Regards, Paul V.

If I move the EYE to upper case Y and yea to lower case y.
Then
x and X might be better used for Ah and Awe than y and Y.
Upper case G could be used for the Air sound. I Have to consider an
Err/Urge replacement key.
__________________________attached_____________________




--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> I prefer the Latin sound-symbol correspondences.
> The idea behind the ENgliS keyboard map was to
> make the code more transparent to tradspel adepts.
>
> > Certainly some tweaking could be done on Keyboard Shavian,
> > and secondly such tweaking should be based on phonetic, not T.O.
> > based relationships.
> It can be phonemic and based on the traditional vowel shifted
orthography.
> > The choice of Roman equivalents should be
> > internally consistent, and where-ever possible use the character
that
> > is not inconsistent with Roman letter use.
> > And if the sound is different from one of it Roman Letter usages,
it
> > is probably better, to use a Capitalized letter.
> > From a theoretically point of view lets see whaaat we could
improve.
> >
> > Given this,
> > one of the chaNGES IN ing-gliS struck a chord with me.
> > Using capital-Y to represent the eYe sound,
> ENgliS uses Y for eYe. see www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm
> > and using lower case y to map the Shaw Yea letter.
> > Altho having upper case Y (Capital-Y) represent Yew is also a
> > possibility.
> > But can anyone thing of appropriate Capital letters to represent
> > the Shaw Ah and Awe letter sounds. (I was thinking using Q or X
for
> > them)
>
> That might work, Q is the British short o in SAMPA and the I have
used it for
> (ah).
> as in pQt for pot.
>
> Since the two sounds are related x and X might be better than y and
Y.
>
> Some of the
> > composite letters, Air, Urge, Oil, Our could certainly be bumped
into
> > the Capitals)
> It depends if you want to minimize the number of symbols or have a
symbol for
> every sound.
> air = a&(r) or e&(r) marry vs merry.
> urge = &&j or &&rj or ....
> oil = awe + ihl
>
> > Only the Our sound , and to lesser extent Air are even common
English
> > speech sounds, anyway.

Paul and Joe,

I am thinking in terms of a universal dictionary key keyboard map that would
be taught to young children. Most preschoolers have had some exposure to the
alphabet and many know how to recite their ABC's. Thus, AEIOU for the named
letters seems to be the place to start rather than E I F O jM.

The issue is how do you get on first base. If we ever want to get more than
300 people involved, we have to find a way to get a million or so people to
use the code.

Any code can be taught and learned, so are closer to known codes.

Spanglish uses ei ie ai ow yw which is a kind of quasi-Latin symbolism.
Since Latin is one of the four codes used in traditional written English,
Spanglish
is readable but it is not that close to Spanish. eip, viesta, ais criem, ....
One could use eep, viista, ais criim in order to be closer to Spanish.
The DM keyboard is Ep vIsta, Fs krIm, or ais krIm. This is as far away from
Spanish
as Spanglish.

--Steve


Hi Steve
I still like the Shavian ideal of having one letter for every
commonly recognized sound in English.
I would'nt even be unhappy to see the Shaw Alphabet expanded to
include a letter for the WH sound and the Syllabic L sound (i.e.
girl, table, yellow, owl, furl, ale)
L is available. gRL, tEbL, jelO, qL, fRL, EL.
I think this is workable. Syllabic L is normally unstressed which makes
it hard to use R for both the unstressed and stressed /3/.
Is murder written as mRdR or mRdar? It could be m'RdR
where there is rhotic ambiguity.
Does R represent /3/ or /3r/? It could be either depending on ones native
accent.

I would like to see a standardized script along with a pronunciation guide
version.
I think the default would be the British non-rhotic accent in the
pronunciation guide
so if you wanted to represent a rhotic accent you would write m'RrdRr.

I am from Texas and was born in the midwest and lived in San Francisco as a
child.

I also love the Dipthong letters, Yew and Vowel+R compound letters.
These are very common English sounds, and quite useful.
I am just suggesting that these generally less common compound
letters be relegated to the upper case (Capital Letters).
For example, you quite correctly point out the (x X) key is not well
served by the assignment of 2 of the less commonly used Shaw Letters.
(2 Vowel + R sounds) (e+r) & (the stressed er)
Where there is a useful correspondence, by all means keep the
current Key Mapping of plain/Capital letters.
So for example n=> none and N=> hung makes perfect sense.
Would none be written nN or nun?
I would like to see some proposals to this effect.
Unfortunately, I do not see how they can be implemented until
we are able to represent Shaw letters Directly
in our discussions/writings.

Since most of our writings show up in Roman letters, it is just
too confusing to sort out the 2 different mapping schemes in actual
correspondence. Perhaps if we make minimal changes to the non-
capitalized letter and preserve multiple keys, so there would be
more redundancy. (i.e. leave lowercase j to represent Yea as well as
lowercase y)

Regards, Paul V.

If I move the EYE to upper case Y and yea to lower case y.
Then
x and X might be better used for Ah and Awe than y and Y.
Upper case G could be used for the Air sound. I Have to consider an
Err/Urge replacement key.


Steve T. Bett, Ph.D.
Austin, Texas
mailto:sbett@... 512-302-3014
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett
retired professor, volunteer literacy instructor
moderator of Saundspel -the phonology forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel

Back in 7 more Days.
Hope everything is well.
Salonicki Greece is a bit of a Culture Shock.
I Hear Blair is Back.

Regards, Paul V.
________________attached___________________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Steve
> I still like the Shavian ideal of having one letter for every
> commonly recognized sound in English.
> I would'nt even be unhappy to see the Shaw Alphabet expanded to
> include a letter for the WH sound and the Syllabic L sound (i.e.
> girl, table, yellow, owl, furl, ale)
> I also love the Dipthong letters, Yew and Vowel+R compound letters.
> These are very common English sounds, and quite useful.
> I am just suggesting that these generally less common compound
> letters be relegated to the upper case (Capital Letters).
> For example, you quite correctly point out the (x X) key is not
well
> served by the assignment of 2 of the less commonly used Shaw
Letters.
> (2 Vowel + R sounds) (e+r) & (the stressed er)
> Where there is a useful correspondence, by all means keep the
> current Key Mapping of plain/Capital letters.
> So for example n=> none and N=> hung makes perfect sense.
>
> I would like to see some proposals to this effect.
> Unfortunately, I do not see how they can be implemented until
> we are able to represent Shaw letters Directly
> in our discussions/writings.
>
> Since most of our writings show up in Roman letters, it is just
> too confusing to sort out the 2 different mapping schemes in actual
> correspondence. Perhaps if we make minimal changes to the non-
> capitalized letter and preserve multiple keys, so there would be
> more redundancy. (i.e. leave lowercase j to represent Yea as well as
> lowercase y)
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> If I move the EYE to upper case Y and yea to lower case y.
> Then
> x and X might be better used for Ah and Awe than y and Y.
> Upper case G could be used for the Air sound. I Have to consider an
> Err/Urge replacement key.
> __________________________attached_____________________
>
>
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > I prefer the Latin sound-symbol correspondences.
> > The idea behind the ENgliS keyboard map was to
> > make the code more transparent to tradspel adepts.
> >
> > > Certainly some tweaking could be done on Keyboard Shavian,
> > > and secondly such tweaking should be based on phonetic, not T.O.
> > > based relationships.
> > It can be phonemic and based on the traditional vowel shifted
> orthography.
> > > The choice of Roman equivalents should be
> > > internally consistent, and where-ever possible use the
character
> that
> > > is not inconsistent with Roman letter use.
> > > And if the sound is different from one of it Roman Letter
usages,
> it
> > > is probably better, to use a Capitalized letter.
> > > From a theoretically point of view lets see whaaat we could
> improve.
> > >
> > > Given this,
> > > one of the chaNGES IN ing-gliS struck a chord with me.
> > > Using capital-Y to represent the eYe sound,
> > ENgliS uses Y for eYe. see www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm
> > > and using lower case y to map the Shaw Yea letter.
> > > Altho having upper case Y (Capital-Y) represent Yew is also a
> > > possibility.
> > > But can anyone thing of appropriate Capital letters to represent
> > > the Shaw Ah and Awe letter sounds. (I was thinking using Q or X
> for
> > > them)
> >
> > That might work, Q is the British short o in SAMPA and the I have
> used it for
> > (ah).
> > as in pQt for pot.
> >
> > Since the two sounds are related x and X might be better than y
and
> Y.
> >
> > Some of the
> > > composite letters, Air, Urge, Oil, Our could certainly be
bumped
> into
> > > the Capitals)
> > It depends if you want to minimize the number of symbols or have
a
> symbol for
> > every sound.
> > air = a&(r) or e&(r) marry vs merry.
> > urge = &&j or &&rj or ....
> > oil = awe + ihl
> >
> > > Only the Our sound , and to lesser extent Air are even common
> English
> > > speech sounds, anyway.

Oh look... more spam. I don't know if it's a hoax or a scam or what,
but this is not the sort of thing that belongs on this list or any
others out there. I'm an armchair linguist and a shavian enthusiast, I
don't have the spare $$$ to donate to something that solicits via
e-mail.

--Star

=========
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

Sorry Star, this is the first spammer on the new shawalphabet list.

I'll just go and ban him/her/it now.

Hugh B


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Star Raven
> Sent: 15 May 2005 23:15
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Human-buttons
>
> Oh look... more spam. I don't know if it's a hoax or a scam or what,
> but this is not the sort of thing that belongs on this list or any
> others out there. I'm an armchair linguist and a shavian enthusiast, I
> don't have the spare $$$ to donate to something that solicits via
> e-mail.
>
> --Star
>
> =========>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

oops, this is from the Shaw Alphabet list isn't it? I looked up and
thought it was still from the shaw list... My fault. Thanks for booting
it!
--Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:

> Sorry Star, this is the first spammer on the new shawalphabet list.
>
> I'll just go and ban him/her/it now.
>
> Hugh B
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Star Raven
> > Sent: 15 May 2005 23:15
> > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Human-buttons
> >
> > Oh look... more spam. I don't know if it's a hoax or a scam or
> what,
> > but this is not the sort of thing that belongs on this list or any
> > others out there. I'm an armchair linguist and a shavian
> enthusiast, I
> > don't have the spare $$$ to donate to something that solicits via
> > e-mail.
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > =========> >
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
> >
> > Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


=========
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

stbetta@... wrote:
> Paul and Joe,
>
> I am thinking in terms of a universal dictionary key keyboard map that
> would be taught to young children. Most preschoolers have had some
> exposure to the alphabet and many know how to recite their ABC's. Thus,
> AEIOU for the named letters seems to be the place to start rather than E
> I F O jM.

Do we have to keep going back to TO for typing in Shavian? I have no
trouble typing 𐑱𐑰𐑲𐑴𐑿 (age eat ice oak yew) on keys which just
happen to be labeled EIFOV. It doesn't bother me. I even labeled my
own keys, and you can get key labels that stick on. Label them with the
Shavian letters.
A couple of sites sell custom designed keyboard stickers, there are more
if you search for them:
http://www.hooleon.com/menu-cust-ov.htm
http://aramedia.com/keyboardstickers.htm

Why can't we just come up with a keyboard layout that's easy to type on
in Shavian, regardless of where the keys are located? The goal is to
make typing easy, not to make it like typing Roman characters on a
qwerty keyboard, which is painful! I personally prefer the Dvorak
layout for Roman characters, since it's optimized for typing. Has
anybody thought out a good Dvorak-like Shavian layout?

>
> The issue is how do you get on first base. If we ever want to get more
> than 300 people involved, we have to find a way to get a million or so
> people to use the code.

The current code is quite easy to use, as far as remembering which
letter is which. Nevertheless it uses far too many shifted characters,
which makes it difficult to type. It would be better to put more rarely
used Shavian characters on the shifted positions and the most common
characters on unshifted positions. There are 33 unshifted positions
available on the three main rows of the standard PC keyboard. Provide
people with an easy to use layout, and a source of stickers for the keys
or instructions on how to make their own labels. People are smart, they
can figure it out!

>
> Any code can be taught and learned, so are closer to known codes.
>
> Spanglish uses ei ie ai ow yw which is a kind of quasi-Latin symbolism.
> Since Latin is one of the four codes used in traditional written
> English, Spanglish
> is readable but it is not that close to Spanish. eip, viesta, ais
> criem, ....
> One could use eep, viista, ais criim in order to be closer to Spanish.
> The DM keyboard is Ep vIsta, Fs krIm, or ais krIm. This is as far away
> from Spanish
> as Spanglish.
>
> --Steve

We're not dealing with Spanish here, but English. How close some
keyboard layout is to a Spanish keyboard is irrelevant to an English
speaker who doesn't use Spanish. Also, it's not easy in a technical way
to create keyboard maps which translate two or more keystrokes into a
single character. Chinese and Japanese have this problem, and it
requires special software (called an input method server) to make it work.

>
>
>
> Hi Steve
> I still like the Shavian ideal of having one letter for every
> commonly recognized sound in English.
> I would'nt even be unhappy to see the Shaw Alphabet expanded to
> include a letter for the WH sound and the Syllabic L sound (i.e.
> girl, table, yellow, owl, furl, ale)
>
> L is available. gRL, tEbL, jelO, qL, fRL, EL.
> I think this is workable. Syllabic L is normally unstressed which makes
> it hard to use R for both the unstressed and stressed /3/.
> Is murder written as mRdR or mRdar? It could be m'RdR

Murder is written 𐑥𐑻𐑛𐑼, mime-err-dead-array. mRdR, 𐑥𐑸𐑛𐑸
(mime-are-dead-are)would be pronounced "mardar". Are you using a
different layout? If so, then you are already confusing me!

> where there is rhotic ambiguity.
> Does R represent /3/ or /3r/? It could be either depending on ones
> native accent.
>
> I would like to see a standardized script along with a pronunciation
> guide version.
> I think the default would be the British non-rhotic accent in the
> pronunciation guide
> so if you wanted to represent a rhotic accent you would write m'RrdRr.

I think typing four characters instead of seven is better. 𐑥𐑻𐑛𐑼
(mxdD). It's simpler, less confusing, easier to type, and takes up less
space. Essentially, that's why Shavian exists.

>
> I am from Texas and was born in the midwest and lived in San Francisco
> as a child.
>
> I also love the Dipthong letters, Yew and Vowel+R compound letters.
> These are very common English sounds, and quite useful.
> I am just suggesting that these generally less common compound
> letters be relegated to the upper case (Capital Letters).
> For example, you quite correctly point out the (x X) key is not well
> served by the assignment of 2 of the less commonly used Shaw Letters.
> (2 Vowel + R sounds) (e+r) & (the stressed er)
> Where there is a useful correspondence, by all means keep the
> current Key Mapping of plain/Capital letters.
> So for example n=> none and N=> hung makes perfect sense.
>
> Would none be written nN or nun?

𐑯𐑳𐑯, nun.

>
> I would like to see some proposals to this effect.
> Unfortunately, I do not see how they can be implemented until
> we are able to represent Shaw letters Directly
> in our discussions/writings.

𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑦𐑟 𐑣𐑨𐑐𐑩𐑯𐑦𐑙. 𐑲 𐑨𐑥 𐑿𐑟𐑦𐑙 ·𐑤𐑦𐑯𐑩𐑒𐑕. 𐑕𐑳𐑥 𐑸
𐑿𐑟𐑦𐑙 ·𐑥𐑨𐑒 OS X, 𐑯 𐑳𐑞𐑼𐑟 𐑸 𐑿𐑟𐑦𐑙 ·𐑢𐑦𐑯𐑛𐑴𐑟 2000 𐑯
𐑩𐑚𐑳𐑝. 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑷𐑤 𐑸 𐑒𐑱𐑐𐑩𐑚𐑤 𐑝 𐑣𐑨𐑯𐑛𐑤𐑦𐑙 ·𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯
𐑑𐑧𐑒𐑕𐑑 𐑛𐑲𐑮𐑧𐑒𐑑𐑤𐑰.

For those of you who can't see the text above, I wrote:
That is happening. I am using Linux. Some are using Mac OS X, and
others are using Windows 2000 and above. These all are capable of
handling Shavian text directly.

>
> Since most of our writings show up in Roman letters, it is just
> too confusing to sort out the 2 different mapping schemes in actual
> correspondence. Perhaps if we make minimal changes to the non-
> capitalized letter and preserve multiple keys, so there would be
> more redundancy. (i.e. leave lowercase j to represent Yea as well as
> lowercase y)
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> If I move the EYE to upper case Y and yea to lower case y.
> Then
> x and X might be better used for Ah and Awe than y and Y.
> Upper case G could be used for the Air sound. I Have to consider an
> Err/Urge replacement key.

Using ASCII encoding to represent Shavian characters (what some here
have termed "Romaji") is obsolete. Unicode will become more and more
prevalent, and as people update their software it will be easier and
easier to use here. If we start using any new encodings for ASCII, we
will cause confusion, break all existing ASCII Shavian font
compatability, and solve nothing. It would be better to focus on
getting your computer to work with Unicode Shavian. Then everybody can
use their favorite keymapping, and everybody else will still be able to
read what they write.



--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan