Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Regarding getting the shavian into the posts...

I know of no other way, other than to use an email program which
allows fonts. Post to the board from that email program and the font
shows up (for everyone who has the font installed.)

I usually use the ghoti font, but others use the androcles font or
the lionspaw font. If you have them all installed, you can read
everyone.

Second... Someone asked what NewRomanji is. Let me point out that
it is Ewout Stam who has written a keyboard driver that uses a
modified version of newromanji. NewRomanji is a driver used by some
oriental writers to get the characters of an oriental language out of
a roman keyboard. To the best of my understanding, the way Ewout
uses it is as a chording keyboard for the pronounced english sounds
which does its best to use the sounds which are most common and
attach them to single keystrokes, making the less common sounds into
two keystrokes.

I have written a different (and experimental) driver which eliminates
most of the capitals from typing in Shavian and replaces some of the
bizzare keyboard strokes with much easier strokes. For a full set of
those, look at one of the earlier posts a week or so ago. But for
example they include mapping U to V, ai to E, ea to I, er to x (which
I will change to er to D) and etc.

You can also see most of this at my Shavian site:

http://www.qsl.net/ws8g/shavianindex.htm

/rik

--- In shavian@y..., Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> before the weekend 'maintenance' kicks in, just wanted
> to say, 'Hi!' - I've been reading the recent mails on
> the 'Err' 'Array' stuff and getting a lot from it, so
> thanks for all that. Couple of queries:
>
> 1. Can someone let me know how to get shavian fonts to
> appear in mails? I couldn't find anything in a (ok,
> cursory, but I only get lunchtimes for this) look
> through the archives.
>
> 2. If I'm writing in my flat
> English-Midlands-tempered-by-12-years-of-living-in-Ireland
> accent, I end up using the 'ado' character a lot, as I
> rarely pronounce the 'r' element - it looks fine to
> me, but probably confusing to anyone else - is it
> expected for Shavian writers to clean up their
> pronounciation in formal writing?
>
> (I write in Shavian everyday while getting the train
> to work, just 10 lines or so about what's going on,
> and what the other people on in the carriage are like
> - doubt if anyone is going to be reading over my
> shoulder.)
>
> cheers,
> Michael
>




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Here we go again!!!

Foreword: The restauranteur had to perfect his kitchen, as it could not go forward without a permit. He would not permit any old pervert trying to pervert the perfect nature of his merry little daughter Mary.


forwDd: H restryntD hAd t pDfekt hiz kicun, Az it kUd not gO fPwDd wiTQt a pxmit. hI wUd not pDmit enI Old pxvDt trFiN t pDvxt H pxfekt nEtjD v hiz mErI litul dytD /mErI.

tuda!

/rik





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> when I try to say Further, it actually sounds like Furthur to me.
> Saying Furtharr makes it sound vaguely British.

it isn't furtharr, Array uses the schwa (lack of stress u sound) plus
r, while err uses a stressed u + r sound.

So you have f, stressed u+r, voiced th, unstressed schwa+r.

--Star

=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Frank Lebowitz

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See below as usual...

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: [shavian] Sand Trap!!!

Here we go again!!!


Foreword: The restauranteur had to perfect his kitchen, as it could not go forward without a permit. He would not permit any old pervert trying to pervert the perfect nature of his merry little daughter Mary.


forwDd: H restryntD hAd t pDfekt hiz kicun, Az it kUd not gO fPwDd wiTQt a pxmit. hI wUd not pDmit enI Old pxvDt trFiN t pDvxt H pxfekt nEtjD v hiz mErI litul dytD /mErI.

I would tend to spell 'foreword' as fPwxd as the stress is equal on both syllables (as if it were two words stuck together), as opposed to 'forward' (fPwDd), where the stress is only on the first syllable.

tuda!

/rik


tady! :)

GhV

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@... <mailto:geoflyfisher@...> >
Aan: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> <shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> >
Datum: vrijdag 15 maart 2002 19:51
Onderwerp: [shavian] 2 questions answered: Fonts in mails etc....


>Regarding getting the shavian into the posts...
>
>I know of no other way, other than to use an email program which
>allows fonts. Post to the board from that email program and the font
>shows up (for everyone who has the font installed.)
>
>I usually use the ghoti font, but others use the androcles font or
>the lionspaw font. If you have them all installed, you can read
>everyone.
>
>Second... Someone asked what NewRomanji is. Let me point out that
>it is Ewout Stam who has written a keyboard driver that uses a
>modified version of newromanji. NewRomanji is a driver used by some
>oriental writers to get the characters of an oriental language out of
>a roman keyboard. To the best of my understanding, the way Ewout
>uses it is as a chording keyboard for the pronounced english sounds
>which does its best to use the sounds which are most common and
>attach them to single keystrokes, making the less common sounds into
>two keystrokes.

Not quite, but I have written some stuff about my drivers (3 now) at
http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net/

The page is buggy, though. Not everything works. But do take a look.

perhaps there is some NewRomaji documentation available at the saundspel group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/saundspel

At least, that's where I got my information from.


/EvQt stym


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I too am from the Midwest and it took me about 6 months to hear the difference between T and H.

I finally resorted to a mneumonic: Shakespeare says to his girlfriend: "I lovest th(T)y th(H)ighs."

For better or worse, yes, I would call T sibilant.

Your other comment about King George also reminded my of an old problem I had with the Androcles transcription of "pity". It goes piti, which is to suggest that the first vowel sound and the second are identical..To my mind they certainly are not, amd I would write pitI. When I say it the first way, I feel like a bad actor in a Noel Coward play.

After a year of doing this, I have begun to realize that the primary person you are writing Shavian to is yourself. So why sacrifice your logic to the peculiarities of King George?



I will do a redo of the restaurant sentence from home where I can
write in shavian characters.

I must admit to not understanding your use of the two "th"s..

For reference, lets call the th of theater T and the th of the H,
which is the way I understand their use in the standard keyboard.

As such T has a high pitched sss... of air between the tongue and the
upper teeth, just before the rest of the sound; while H has no escape
of air, the sound just starts with the tongue on the upper teeth.

I don't know if it sounds like that on the other side of the pond,
but here in the midwest (Ohio) that is the way I hear it. I'd call
the difference a sibilant in the T, except that I don't really know
the definition of sibilant, and this is rough crowd in which to use
such a word wrongly.

I don't believe I would ever end a word without the T sound. Few
words start with T... (for me) theater and thanks are the only ones
that comes to mind. The, there, that, them, these, all begin with
H.

As to being comfortable with (wiT) ar vs er, I understand the
difference now. I pronounce them identically and had to look up the
keystroke for ar (D). I have to go back to my keyboard driver and
figure out how I will rekey so that the much more common D comes out
when I type er and x comes out when I type something else
(ur "purhaps!")

One further... The Androcles use of i instead of long e continues to
seem strange. Perhaps King George pronounced all those words that
end in a y as though they ended with an i (with) sound. If so he
must have sounded a lot like the characters in Gone with the Wind.
There is not much differnce between an i sound and an up sound.

"Evra time ya do that, it makes ma vera sad."

I don't think I can ever buy into that kind of pronounciation. I can
read it, but only as dialect.

Later!

/rik



--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!
>
> Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I
would write what you did:
> GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO
mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)
>
> Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks'
(how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the
only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say
you come from again?
>
> Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel
strange?
>
> Hugh
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyfisher
> To: Shavian Group
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
> Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!
>
>
> /hV,
>
> HAnks fP bIiN pESant.
>
> wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.
>
> /flFfiSD (/rik)
>
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>
>
>
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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk


"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /JPJ /bxnRd /SY

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Robert,

I believe I hear the difference. However, when I look at the card in
Androcles I see that "thigh" is the example word for T, and "they" is
the example for H. So I guess I still do not understand. By those
example words, I would expect thy thighs to be HF TFz.

(By the way, your email program was stuck on ghoti as you began to
write in roman again below... It reads fine if you translate
everything back to roman, but it is sure hard to read in Shavian!!)

/rik



--- In shavian@y..., Robert McBroom <info@o...> wrote:
> I too am from the Midwest and it took me about 6 months to hear the
> difference between T and H.
>
> I finally resorted to a mneumonic: Shakespeare says to his
> girlfriend: "I lovest th(T)y th(H)ighs."
>
> For better or worse, yes, I would call T sibilant.
>
> Your other comment about King George also reminded my of an old
> problem I had with the Androcles transcription of "pity". It goes
> piti, which is to suggest that the first vowel sound and the
second
> are identical..To my mind they certainly are not, amd I would write
> pitI. When I say it the first way, I feel like a bad actor in a
Noel
> Coward play.
>
> After a year of doing this, I have begun to realize that the
primary
> person you are writing Shavian to is yourself. So why sacrifice
your
> logic to the peculiarities of King George?
>




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See below...


----- Original Message -----
From: Robert McBroom <mailto:info@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 5:04 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: What a stressful week!

I too am from the Midwest and it took me about 6 months to hear the difference between T and H.


I finally resorted to a mneumonic: Shakespeare says to his girlfriend: "I lovest th(T)y th(H)ighs."


Oops :-/ wouldn't that be "I lovest th(H)y th(T)ighs"?



For better or worse, yes, I would call T sibilant.


Your other comment about King George also reminded my of an old problem I had with the Androcles transcription of "pity". It goes piti, which is to suggest that the first vowel sound and the second are identical..To my mind they certainly are not, amd I would write pitI. When I say it the first way, I feel like a bad actor in a Noel Coward play.


You don't have to write that like Androcles does. That's why I don't either; I would write 'pitI' as well.


After a year of doing this, I have begun to realize that the primary person you are writing Shavian to is yourself. So why sacrifice your logic to the peculiarities of King George?


You don't have to. The 'King George accent' described in the book hardly affects anything at all, besides the use of 'i' as you mentioned, and also the use of 'y' instead of 'A' in words such as 'past', 'grass', etc.

Hugh

I really like those sentences that test my Shavian writing ability.
You know, like the Foreword one from a few days ago. Are there any
others that I can play with?



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You could try Shaw's own Phonemic Alphabet test piece, if you haven't seen it already. It's rather long, but worth at least one attempt.

"Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his billiards so highly. Quick! Quick! Hear the queer story how father and son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless empty instinct, ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo. [Why did he and his father bother to behave so whimsically in such weather?]



I should probably mention that Bob Richmond added the last sentence (in brackets). It's definitely worth keeping it there. I wonder where Bob is these days...



Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: skilbo11834 <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] More tests!!

I really like those sentences that test my Shavian writing ability.
You know, like the Foreword one from a few days ago. Are there any
others that I can play with?