Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Maybe they are wiping out the empty and extra groups...

--star

--- Usmaak <usmaak@...> wrote:
> hF Yl,
>
> Just wen wI wx stRtiN t get sum gUd konvxsESanz gOiN, HE R gOiN t Sut
> dQn /jyhM grMps fP H wIkend fP mEntanens. wut kFnd v "mEntanens"
> tEks tM P mP dEz??
>
> -skYt
>


=====
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-Frank Lebowitz

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If that notion frightens you... this group can by no means 'extra' or 'empty' - it has seen plenty of traffic over the past three years. Maybe not so much recently, but that doesn't matter in the long run.

If they so much as hover their finger over the 'delete' button I will have to put my hacking boots on and stroll on over to Yahoo HQ.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Star Raven <mailto:celestraof12worlds@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Fw: Oh no!

Maybe they are wiping out the empty and extra groups...

--star

--- Usmaak <usmaak@... <mailto:usmaak@...> > wrote:
> hF Yl,
>
> Just wen wI wx stRtiN t get sum gUd konvxsESanz gOiN, HE R gOiN t Sut
> dQn /jyhM grMps fP H wIkend fP mEntanens. wut kFnd v "mEntanens"
> tEks tM P mP dEz??
>
> -skYt
>


=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Frank Lebowitz

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/hV,

HAnks fP bIiN pESant.

wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.

/flFfiSD (/rik)

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Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!

Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I would write what you did:
GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)

Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks' (how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say you come from again?

Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel strange?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!

/hV,

HAnks fP bIiN pESant.

wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.

/flFfiSD (/rik)

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--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote: >
Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!
>
> Compare what you just wrote with the text below,
> which is how I would write what you did:
> GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil
> mxmD nO mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)
>
> Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T
> in 'thanks' (how it is in British accent) and the H
> in 'with' (ditto). So the only differences now are
> true dialect-related ones. Where did you say you
> come from again?
>
> Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that,
> or does it feel strange?
>
> Hugh
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyfisher
> To: Shavian Group
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
> Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!
>
>
> /hV,
>
> HAnks fP bIiN pESant.
>
> wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.
>
> /flFfiSD (/rik)
>
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>

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Dear all,

before the weekend 'maintenance' kicks in, just wanted
to say, 'Hi!' - I've been reading the recent mails on
the 'Err' 'Array' stuff and getting a lot from it, so
thanks for all that. Couple of queries:

1. Can someone let me know how to get shavian fonts to
appear in mails? I couldn't find anything in a (ok,
cursory, but I only get lunchtimes for this) look
through the archives.

2. If I'm writing in my flat
English-Midlands-tempered-by-12-years-of-living-in-Ireland
accent, I end up using the 'ado' character a lot, as I
rarely pronounce the 'r' element - it looks fine to
me, but probably confusing to anyone else - is it
expected for Shavian writers to clean up their
pronounciation in formal writing?

(I write in Shavian everyday while getting the train
to work, just 10 lines or so about what's going on,
and what the other people on in the carriage are like
- doubt if anyone is going to be reading over my
shoulder.)

cheers,
Michael

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Hugh,

I understand what you are saying here, but it just looks weird to me. I think that I must pronounce Array differently than the rest of you. To me, the Urge character is kind of a hard UR. Array is a softer sound. The way I think of it, it is like ar. Looking at these two symbols together, I guess it is meant that way. I have always had a difficult time with the a character as well, though I think I have gotten the hang of it over the last year. For instance, when I try to say Further, it actually sounds like Furthur to me. Saying Furtharr makes it sound vaguely British. I can certainly adjust my writing to account for stress on different syllables, however.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!

Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!

Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I would write what you did:
GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)

Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks' (how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say you come from again?

Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel strange?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!

/hV,

HAnks fP bIiN pESant.

wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.

/flFfiSD (/rik)


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See below for comments...

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!


Hugh,

I understand what you are saying here, but it just looks weird to me. I think that I must pronounce Array differently than the rest of you. To me, the Urge character is kind of a hard UR. Array is a softer sound.

If x sounds different from D, that's only a side-effect of the stress (or lack of it). The Androcles preface should have offered more explanation of issues such as x and D - just presenting the characters in a table, as it does, just isn't enough for this alphabet.

The way I think of it, it is like ar. Looking at these two symbols together, I guess it is meant that way.

Yes, that's really it. I guess they were stuck together to make the alphabet more visually appealing, and/or to increase the alphabet's 'space-saving characteristics'. Same with P, R, V, etc.

I have always had a difficult time with the a character as well, though I think I have gotten the hang of it over the last year. For instance, when I try to say Further, it actually sounds like Furthur to me.

No doubt it does sound like that. But the symbols are still different because of the stress being on the first syllable, i.e. FURther not furTHER.

Saying Furtharr makes it sound vaguely British. I can certainly adjust my writing to account for stress on different syllables, however.

If you were honest, would you say that it would be comfortable to do that? If you find no trouble at all doing it, that's really fantastic, because you would be countering many of the criticisms made over the years that "Shavian is not appropriate for American dialects". I'm not going to mention any names here, but... *cough cough Peter T. Daniels cough*... damn this itchy throat... :P

Try searching for that name along with 'shaw alphabet' or 'shavian' in Google groups and you'll see what I mean.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!

Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!

Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I would write what you did:
GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)

Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks' (how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say you come from again?

Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel strange?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!

/hV,

HAnks fP bIiN pESant.

wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.

/flFfiSD (/rik)


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No, I really don't have a problem doing it. I really want to learn to do this the "correct" way. Now, whether I can do it without mistakes is another issue entirely. :)

So, without further ado...

Foreword: The Restauranteur had to perfect his kitchen, as it could not go forward without a permit. He would not permit any old pervert trying to pervert the perfect nature of his merry little daughter Mary.

fPwxd: H restrYntx hAd t pDfekt hiz kitcen, Az it kUd not gO fPwDd wiTQt a pxmit. hI wUd not pDmit enI Old pxvDt trFiN t pDvxt H pxfekt nEtD v hiz merI lital dYtD /mArI.

What I tried to do here was use the urge character to emphasize stress on a syllable, and the array character when the stress was not on the syllable. I don't know if it's correct, but it has to be closer than my original attempt. Funny thing was, when I was doing it, I kept hearing a British voice in my head. After a while, I started hearing the stress, or lack of stress instead.

So, how do you rate this? Is there anything I missed?

Thanks,

Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!

See below for comments...

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!


Hugh,

I understand what you are saying here, but it just looks weird to me. I think that I must pronounce Array differently than the rest of you. To me, the Urge character is kind of a hard UR. Array is a softer sound.

If x sounds different from D, that's only a side-effect of the stress (or lack of it). The Androcles preface should have offered more explanation of issues such as x and D - just presenting the characters in a table, as it does, just isn't enough for this alphabet.

The way I think of it, it is like ar. Looking at these two symbols together, I guess it is meant that way.

Yes, that's really it. I guess they were stuck together to make the alphabet more visually appealing, and/or to increase the alphabet's 'space-saving characteristics'. Same with P, R, V, etc.

I have always had a difficult time with the a character as well, though I think I have gotten the hang of it over the last year. For instance, when I try to say Further, it actually sounds like Furthur to me.

No doubt it does sound like that. But the symbols are still different because of the stress being on the first syllable, i.e. FURther not furTHER.

Saying Furtharr makes it sound vaguely British. I can certainly adjust my writing to account for stress on different syllables, however.

If you were honest, would you say that it would be comfortable to do that? If you find no trouble at all doing it, that's really fantastic, because you would be countering many of the criticisms made over the years that "Shavian is not appropriate for American dialects". I'm not going to mention any names here, but... *cough cough Peter T. Daniels cough*... damn this itchy throat... :P

Try searching for that name along with 'shaw alphabet' or 'shavian' in Google groups and you'll see what I mean.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] What a stressful week!

Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!

Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I would write what you did:
GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)

Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks' (how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say you come from again?

Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel strange?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!

/hV,

HAnks fP bIiN pESant.

wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.

/flFfiSD (/rik)


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




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I will do a redo of the restaurant sentence from home where I can
write in shavian characters.

I must admit to not understanding your use of the two "th"s..

For reference, lets call the th of theater T and the th of the H,
which is the way I understand their use in the standard keyboard.

As such T has a high pitched sss... of air between the tongue and the
upper teeth, just before the rest of the sound; while H has no escape
of air, the sound just starts with the tongue on the upper teeth.

I don't know if it sounds like that on the other side of the pond,
but here in the midwest (Ohio) that is the way I hear it. I'd call
the difference a sibilant in the T, except that I don't really know
the definition of sibilant, and this is rough crowd in which to use
such a word wrongly.

I don't believe I would ever end a word without the T sound. Few
words start with T... (for me) theater and thanks are the only ones
that comes to mind. The, there, that, them, these, all begin with
H.

As to being comfortable with (wiT) ar vs er, I understand the
difference now. I pronounce them identically and had to look up the
keystroke for ar (D). I have to go back to my keyboard driver and
figure out how I will rekey so that the much more common D comes out
when I type er and x comes out when I type something else
(ur "purhaps!")

One further... The Androcles use of i instead of long e continues to
seem strange. Perhaps King George pronounced all those words that
end in a y as though they ended with an i (with) sound. If so he
must have sounded a lot like the characters in Gone with the Wind.
There is not much differnce between an i sound and an up sound.

"Evra time ya do that, it makes ma vera sad."

I don't think I can ever buy into that kind of pronounciation. I can
read it, but only as dialect.

Later!

/rik



--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> Wow! What an amazing difference that makes!
>
> Compare what you just wrote with the text below, which is how I
would write what you did:
> GhV, TANks fP bIiN pESant. wiH nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO
mP. /flFfiSD (Grik)
>
> Unbelievable - now the only differences are in the T in 'thanks'
(how it is in British accent) and the H in 'with' (ditto). So the
only differences now are true dialect-related ones. Where did you say
you come from again?
>
> Do you feel 'comfortable' using x and D like that, or does it feel
strange?
>
> Hugh
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyfisher
> To: Shavian Group
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:10 PM
> Subject: [shavian] What a stressful week!
>
>
> /hV,
>
> HAnks fP bIiN pESant.
>
> wiT nO fxHD adM, F wil mxmD nO mP.
>
> /flFfiSD (/rik)
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


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