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Hi there, welcome to the group! There's a few things you said I think I can help with...

----- Original Message -----
From: rubik67 <mailto:rubik67@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:20 AM
Subject: [shavian] Questions, and a proposal.

I just discovered Shavian writing on the 18th, and by the 20th I was
so royally pissed with standard English spelling I pretty much
resolved right then and there to bring about the reformation that
Shaw wanted, even if I had to do it solo.

I agree, English spelling is stupid. I'm sure that is the reason most people have considered Shavian. However, even I have grudgingly accepted the unlikelihood of Shavian replacing Roman as the 'standard' alphabet. I'm certain it could find good uses though, but it would definitely take time.

However, I have a couple of
questions about the alphabet. First of all, what's the difference in
pronunciation between "o" (short), "ah", and "awe"? Second, how do
you represent the nasal "i" sound in "ing"? It's somewhere between
"ih" and "ee", but it doesn't seem to have any representation
anywhere.

I think Philip Newton's explanation of 'on', 'ah' and 'awe' is better than any I could attempt. However, when it comes to the 'i' in 'ing', I honestly would never have thought of it as a separate sound. Indeed, I have never heard anyone else describe it as such either. How do you figure that it is a separate sound? The way it seems to me, the 'i' in 'ing' is no more a separate sound than the 'i' in 'im' or the 'i' in 'in'; the consonants (especially continuants such as ng, m, n) following the 'i' will often alter the sound slightly, but these instances are not really grounds for separate Shavian letters to be created.

Now for the proposal: As cool as the Shavian alphabet is, there
appears to be one major flaw in it... the letter "x", which is
pronounced either "ks" or "gz", depending on context. Shavian,
unfortunately, doesn't have any similar compound, so there are
occasional words which actually expand in Shavian (for
example, "exit", "maxim", etc). To correct this, I suggest adding a
couple of new characters to the standard set, which are a
combination of the "k" and "s" characters for the unvoiced x, and a
combination of "g" and "s" for the voiced version. To create these
new characters, simply add the top of the "s" character to the "k"
character and the bottom of the "s" to the "g" character. The little
loop extension shouldn't be any longer than half the length of the
top third of the Shavian letter space to prevent blending and
potential confusion (ie. xi with kp and ix with bg). This will
eliminate the one and only advantage that standard spelling has over
Shavian.

This kind of thing has been mentioned before, I think. Shavian is designed to represent the most common sounds necessary to communicate English effectively. Combining two consonants together does not really fit into this I don't think, especially as 'x' isn't that common.

As for shawalphabet.com's "Shavian", it seems to violate at least two
of Shaw's proposed rules (ie. pleasant to look at, and everything
being written with a single stroke), so I seriously doubt it can be
considered real Shavian. For now, I'm definitely sticking with the
alphabet provided in Androcles. L8r.

I don't think it is that pleasant to look at either (you are also correct on the single stroke 'rule'), but the reasoning behind the alterations is understandable. However, I don't think that the Shavian vowel sounds are any major problem if everyone understands where one symbol is more appropriate than another seemingly similar one, which we have proven CAN be done with little trouble.

Hugh

Hi everyone,

I was a member of the saundspel group because I wasn't aware there was a
Shavian mailing list until today. So I've already announced there what
I'm now announcing here.

I'm a Linux user with an interest in Shavian. I've been working on a
program to convert English text to Shavian. It's written in C, but a Java
version is in the works. The source code to my program is available at
http://www.geocities.com/rschmertz/Shavian_Converter.html. It has some
limitations, and I'm not sure how far I want to go into making it really
polished, but I thought I'd just throw it out there. If you want to use
this, you need to compile the source yourself. If you're a Windows or Mac
user, you'll need to set yourself up with a C compiler. My page provides
a link to a page with some free compilers. If anyone does compile this
and get it to work, I would appreciate your letting me know.

Any Linux/Unix users out there who use Shavian fonts in X Windows?

Below is the above text repeated in Shavian, as output by my program. The
word "Linux" is a recent addition; if you download the version of the
program that's currently posted on the Web, it will not render it
properly.


hF evrIwun,

F woz a membD v H (*saundspel*) grMp bikYz F wozant awx Hx woz a SEvIan
mEliN list antil tadE. sO Fv YlredI anQnst Hx wut Fm nQ anQnsiN hC.

Fm a linaks VzD wiH An intrast in SEvIan. Fv bin wDkiN on a prOgrAm t
konvDt iNgliS tekst t SEvIan. its ritan in sI, but a Jova vDZan iz in H
wDks. H sPs kOd t mF prOgrAm iz avElabal At
(*http*)://(*www*).(*geocities*).kom/(*rschmertz*)/SEvIan_kanvDtD.(*html*).
it hAz sum limatESanz, n Fm not SUr hQ fR F wont t gO intM mEkiN it rilI
poliSt, but F TYt Fd Just TrO it Qt Hx. if V wont t Vs His, V nId t
kampFl H sPs jDself. if jUr a windOz P mAk VzD, Vl nId t set jDself up
wiH a sI kampFlD. mF pEJ pravFdz a liNk t a pEJ wiH sum frI kampFlDz. if
enIwan duz kampFl His n get it t wDk, F wUd aprISIEt jP letiN mI nO.

enI linaks/Vniks VzDz Qt Hx hM Vs SEvIan fonts in eks windOz?

balO iz H abuv tekst rapItad in SEvIan, Az QtpUt bF mF prOgrAm. H wDd
"linaks" iz a rIsant adiSan; if V dQnlOd H vDZan v H prOgrAm HAts kDantlI
pOstad on H web, it wil not rendD it propDlI.



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Hi everyone,

I was a member of the saundspel group because I wasn't aware there was a
Shavian mailing list until today. So I've already announced there what
I'm now announcing here.

I'm a Linux user with an interest in Shavian. I've been working on a
program to convert English text to Shavian. It's written in C, but a Java
version is in the works. The source code to my program is available at
http://www.geocities.com/rschmertz/Shavian_Converter.html. It has some
limitations, and I'm not sure how far I want to go into making it really
polished, but I thought I'd just throw it out there. If you want to use
this, you need to compile the source yourself. If you're a Windows or Mac
user, you'll need to set yourself up with a C compiler. My page provides
a link to a page with some free compilers. If anyone does compile this
and get it to work, I would appreciate your letting me know.

Any Linux/Unix users out there who use Shavian fonts in X Windows?

Below is the above text repeated in Shavian, as output by my program. The
word "Linux" is a recent addition; if you download the version of the
program that's currently posted on the Web, it will not render it
properly.


hF evrIwun,

F woz a membD v H (*saundspel*) grMp bikYz F wozant awx Hx woz a SEvIan
mEliN list antil tadE. sO Fv YlredI anQnst Hx wut Fm nQ anQnsiN hC.

Fm a linaks VzD wiH An intrast in SEvIan. Fv bin wDkiN on a prOgrAm t
konvDt iNgliS tekst t SEvIan. its ritan in sI, but a Jova vDZan iz in H
wDks. H sPs kOd t mF prOgrAm iz avElabal At
(*http*)://(*www*).(*geocities*).kom/(*rschmertz*)/SEvIan_kanvDtD.(*html*).
it hAz sum limatESanz, n Fm not SUr hQ fR F wont t gO intM mEkiN it rilI
poliSt, but F TYt Fd Just TrO it Qt Hx. if V wont t Vs His, V nId t
kampFl H sPs jDself. if jUr a windOz P mAk VzD, Vl nId t set jDself up
wiH a sI kampFlD. mF pEJ pravFdz a liNk t a pEJ wiH sum frI kampFlDz. if
enIwan duz kampFl His n get it t wDk, F wUd aprISIEt jP letiN mI nO.

enI linaks/Vniks VzDz Qt Hx hM Vs SEvIan fonts in eks windOz?

balO iz H abuv tekst rapItad in SEvIan, Az QtpUt bF mF prOgrAm. H wDd
"linaks" iz a rIsant adiSan; if V dQnlOd H vDZan v H prOgrAm HAts kDantlI
pOstad on H web, it wil not rendD it propDlI.



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I have problems with my Web browser sometimes, which cause things to be
posted twice. I'll be making most of my posts from a regular mail client,
though.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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Hi.

I've never used Shavian before, but I've always thought it would be
cool if I could find a quicker way to write stuff down.

Question 1:
Can Shavian actually help me write faster, or is it mostly a novelty
alphabet?

Question 2:
Maybe this is the wrong place to be asking, but are there any
alternatives to Shavian?

Question 3:
How does a person go about learning it? How long will it take?

Thanks in advance,

David Weitzman



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On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 02:24:42AM -0000, weitzman_d wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I've never used Shavian before, but I've always thought it would be
> cool if I could find a quicker way to write stuff down.
>
> Question 1:
> Can Shavian actually help me write faster, or is it mostly a novelty
> alphabet?

None of the above :). Once you've learned it, it may be a bit faster than
regular writing, since its strokes are very simple, and there are no
digraphs (two letters used to represent a single English sound, like 'th',
'ou' as in sound, or most of the letters in the word 'though', which would
be spelled with two Shavian letters). But what it was designed for was to
provide a more consistent, learnable spelling system for English.

>
> Question 2:
> Maybe this is the wrong place to be asking, but are there any
> alternatives to Shavian?

Depends on what your criteria are. Different writing systems are designed
to address different issues. Unifon is another well-known system that
addresses the same problem Shavian does.

>
> Question 3:
> How does a person go about learning it? How long will it take?
>

I don't have a good answer for this one. I just looked at the chart,
noticed things like the fact that most voiced/unvoiced consonant pairs are
rotated versions of one another, and started trying to write things. It's
probably easiest at first to try to write it rather than to read it.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz
http://www.geocities.com/rschmertz/


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I won't respond to Shavian being a novelty alphabet, that's already
been responded to. ;)

If you are interested in a method that will help you write more
rapidly, I would like to suggest EasyScript. It is something that
I've been using off and on for a couple of years now, particularly
when taking notes in meetings at work. Unfortunately, there does
not seem to be any information on the internet about it whatsoever.
I discovered while searching for information on shorthand. I bought
the EasyScript manual from Amazon.com. Here's a link...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893726010/qid=1020636730/sr=8
-2/ref=sr_8_67_2/102-1034611-7247303

It doesn't take a lot to learn, and uses no symbols, just the
standard alphabet. You don't have to memorize much, just learn a
few basic rules for shortening words. You can implement it slowly.
As you learn it, you will find yourself converting more and more
words into their shortened version.

--- In shavian@y..., "weitzman_d" <weitzman_d@y...> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I've never used Shavian before, but I've always thought it would
be
> cool if I could find a quicker way to write stuff down.
>
> Question 1:
> Can Shavian actually help me write faster, or is it mostly a
novelty
> alphabet?
>
> Question 2:
> Maybe this is the wrong place to be asking, but are there any
> alternatives to Shavian?
>
> Question 3:
> How does a person go about learning it? How long will it take?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> David Weitzman



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Here's my take on your questions:


Hi.

I've never used Shavian before, but I've always thought it would be
cool if I could find a quicker way to write stuff down.

Question 1:
Can Shavian actually help me write faster, or is it mostly a novelty
alphabet?


I started with Shavian a year ago and found it a clever way to write. I'm always in the position of having to make notes about people I am sitting with, and, frankly, it was much better to write Shavian, knowing they would not know what I was saying about them. But reading it is another skill entirely, and took much more energy. If you write your shopping list in Shavian, you will at first find yourself standing in the store and skratching your head. But that will pass.




Question 2:
Maybe this is the wrong place to be asking, but are there any
alternatives to Shavian?


If speed is what you are after, you will find Shavian disjointed, not at all free-flowing. More like printing than writing. That is why, after six months I switched to Quickscript (also called Kwikscript, or the Read alphabet.) It is the "handwriting" version of Shavian, and follows the same phonetic logic. Letters connect fluidly, and, if you enjoy the experience of writing per se, you will enjoy making Quickscript letters. You can find a lot of information at the Read Alphabet group on Yahoo.



Question 3:
How does a person go about learning it? How long will it take?


You can make little flash cards for yourself, as you would for learning another language, I created a "slide show" program of words, (using something such as Powerpoint) with an audio track of the works to accompany it. I did feel a little like Dr. Skinner's pidgeons, but it did work. Read, the creator of both alphabets, suggested this little game: take two consonants (like t and p ) and make as many words as you can think of, by inserting the various vowel symbols between them. Then, he advised, go back the next day and try to read your work (that's the test!) If nothing else, your efforts will really get to to listen carefully to the sounds you make (and the sounds other people make). And that can in itself be very enlightening.



Thanks in advance,

David Weitzman


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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk


"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /JPJ /bxnRd /SY

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--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> Hi there, welcome to the group! There's a few things you said I
think I can help with...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rubik67
> To: shavian@y...
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:20 AM
> Subject: [shavian] Questions, and a proposal.
>
>
> I just discovered Shavian writing on the 18th, and by the 20th I
was
> so royally pissed with standard English spelling I pretty much
> resolved right then and there to bring about the reformation that
> Shaw wanted, even if I had to do it solo.
> I agree, English spelling is stupid. I'm sure that is the reason
most people have considered Shavian. However, even I have grudgingly
accepted the unlikelihood of Shavian replacing Roman as
the 'standard' alphabet. I'm certain it could find good uses though,
but it would definitely take time.

True, it won't be replacing it any time soon. However, to paraphrase
Edmund Burke, "The only thing needed for the Roman alphabet to win is
for good linguists to do nothing." Groups like this and web pages
like shavian.org are a good start, but what's needed is something
dramatic, such as more books published like the Shaw Alphabet version
of Androcles and the Lion. I'm working on one right now.

> I think Philip Newton's explanation of 'on', 'ah' and 'awe' is
better than any I could attempt. However, when it comes to the 'i'
in 'ing', I honestly would never have thought of it as a separate
sound. Indeed, I have never heard anyone else describe it as such
either. How do you figure that it is a separate sound? The way it
seems to me, the 'i' in 'ing' is no more a separate sound than
the 'i' in 'im' or the 'i' in 'in'; the consonants (especially
continuants such as ng, m, n) following the 'i' will often alter the
sound slightly, but these instances are not really grounds for
separate Shavian letters to be created.

OK, here's an experiment for you to try. First, say "thin king"
and "thinking" out loud, focussing all your attention on how the
first i is pronounced in both cases. Do they sound the same? Next,
try saying them again, as a Japanese person would, ie. "seen king"
and "sinking", again, focussing on the first i sound. Do they sound
the same in this case? To me, all three i's have a different sound.

> This kind of thing has been mentioned before, I think. Shavian is
designed to represent the most common sounds necessary to communicate
English effectively. Combining two consonants together does not
really fit into this I don't think, especially as 'x' isn't that
common.

Actually, there's quite a few combinations in Shavian already, eg.
the "ow" character could be represented as "a-u" (the hyphen is only
to show the two different characters involved), "air" can be
represented as "e-r", "err" can be done as "ado-r", "or" can be "o-
r", "array" can be "u-r", etc. None of them are
particularly "needed", but there they are all the same. L8r.




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--- In shavian@y..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 02:24:42AM -0000, weitzman_d wrote:
> > Question 3:
> > How does a person go about learning it? How long will it take?
> >
>
> I don't have a good answer for this one. I just looked at the
chart,
> noticed things like the fact that most voiced/unvoiced consonant
pairs are
> rotated versions of one another, and started trying to write
things. It's
> probably easiest at first to try to write it rather than to read it.

Another suggestion I could make is to create your own Shavian "Flash
cards". Just get some 3x5 cards and cut them in half (or perhaps some
3x2.5 cards) and write the Shavian on one side (I'd suggest on the
lined side with triple height letters, making sure to account for the
various heights of the Shavian letters) and the names of each letter
on the back. Then go through the cards a few times. Once you start
getting most of them correct, shuffle the pack and go through them
again, as many times as you feel are necessary. You'll get to learn
the Shavian alphabet REAL quick. :-) L8r.





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