Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

--- In shavian@y..., Robert McBroom <info@o...> wrote:
> You can make little flash cards for yourself, as you would for
> learning another language,[...]

That'll teach me not to post before reading through the rest of the
thread. :-) L8r.



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On 7 May 02, at 23:59, rubik67 wrote:

> OK, here's an experiment for you to try. First, say "thin king"
> and "thinking" out loud, focussing all your attention on how the
> first i is pronounced in both cases. Do they sound the same? Next,
> try saying them again, as a Japanese person would, ie. "seen king"
> and "sinking", again, focussing on the first i sound. Do they sound
> the same in this case? To me, all three i's have a different sound.

(Or use "sin king, sinking, seen king".) I also think I have three
different vowels in this triplet.

> Actually, there's quite a few combinations in Shavian already, eg.
> the "ow" character could be represented as "a-u" (the hyphen is only
> to show the two different characters involved), "air" can be
> represented as "e-r", "err" can be done as "ado-r", "or" can be "o-
> r", "array" can be "u-r", etc. None of them are
> particularly "needed", but there they are all the same.

Well, the rhotics are a bit different... that's what I think enables
Shavian to be written by speakers of non-rhotic and rhotic dialects
alike. So for you, "air" is "e"+"r", while for me it's "e"+"about"; for
you, "or" is "o"+"r", while for me, it's "awe". I would vote to keep
the rhotic vowels separate.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>


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On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:19:08AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> On 7 May 02, at 23:59, rubik67 wrote:
>
> > OK, here's an experiment for you to try. First, say "thin king"
> > and "thinking" out loud, focussing all your attention on how the
> > first i is pronounced in both cases. Do they sound the same? Next,
> > try saying them again, as a Japanese person would, ie. "seen king"
> > and "sinking", again, focussing on the first i sound. Do they sound
> > the same in this case? To me, all three i's have a different sound.
>
> (Or use "sin king, sinking, seen king".) I also think I have three
> different vowels in this triplet.

You may pronounce these differently, but your sound in "sinking" is merely
an allophone of the sound in "sin", unless you can give me an example
where you use the latter sound before an -ng or an -nk, or the former
sound before a plain old -n.

For me, the vowel starts pretty close to the "i" in "sin", but glides
toward a long "e" as my tongue moves into position for the "ng". I also
do that for postvocalic "g" ("big")


--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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On sab, 2002-05-04 at 16:57, rschmertz wrote:
> Any Linux/Unix users out there who use Shavian fonts in X Windows?

They work just as well as other TrueType fonts, with caveats: none of
the Shavian fonts I know of are hinted, and they all look dreadful
without smoothing/antialiasing unless you blow up the font size to epic
proportions. Font smoothing is something that's still coming into the
Linux world bit by bit; the text editor yudit and recent versions of
Mozilla can do their own TrueType smooth font rendering; some versions
of KDE and Gnome libraries hook into the new rendering subsystem of
recent versions of XFree86. You can find instructions on configuring all
this on the net, somewhere...

Printing with Shavian fonts is something I've never even attempted.

If you dare to venture into the scary world of the Unicode encodings
instead of keyboard Shavian, things get even more fun. The proposed
encoding is in Plane 1, which is not well (at all?) supported by
anything. The private-use characters do work (with an appropriately
encoded font) with Unicode-aware programs, though.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
[snip]

>Actually, there's quite a few combinations in Shavian already, eg.
>the "ow" character could be represented as "a-u" (the hyphen is only
>to show the two different characters involved), "air" can be
>represented as "e-r", "err" can be done as "ado-r", "or" can be "o-
>r", "array" can be "u-r", etc. None of them are
>particularly "needed", but there they are all the same. L8r.


In Quickscript all letters connect, if possible. There is no difference
between the ligatures and seperate characters. Check the manual (on my site)

http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net/

Ewout Stam

/EvQt stym



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On Thursday, May 9, 2002, at 10:01 , Brion L. VIBBER wrote:

>
> Printing with Shavian fonts is something I've never even attempted.
>
> If you dare to venture into the scary world of the Unicode encodings
> instead of keyboard Shavian, things get even more fun. The proposed
> encoding is in Plane 1, which is not well (at all?) supported by
> anything. The private-use characters do work (with an appropriately
> encoded font) with Unicode-aware programs, though.
>
>
Unicode (even in Plane 1) works on a MacOS X system. And printing works
as well. I have printed pages and pages of my Unicode Shavian data. My
Periodic Table of Elements has the font built-in so the PDF should be
viewable on any system that can read PDF -- and should print fine as
well.

I just wish people who create TrueType fonts for Shavian would please
encode the Shavian points at their Unicode values (both private use area
and the proposed Plane 1 space just beyond Deseret).

--Scott



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Scott,

I have Mac OS X and couldn't figure out how to turn all the question marks from your web pages to readable Shavian. What's the secret? My Mac's running OS 9.2.2 and OS X 10.1.4, SOOO, it's got to be simple! I'm using Internet Explorer 5.1 for Mac for my browser.

Lee

on 5/9/02 4:52 PM, Scott Harrison wrote:




On Thursday, May 9, 2002, at 10:01 , Brion L. VIBBER wrote:

>
> Printing with Shavian fonts is something I've never even attempted.
>
> If you dare to venture into the scary world of the Unicode encodings
> instead of keyboard Shavian, things get even more fun. The proposed
> encoding is in Plane 1, which is not well (at all?) supported by
> anything. The private-use characters do work (with an appropriately
> encoded font) with Unicode-aware programs, though.
>
>
Unicode (even in Plane 1) works on a MacOS X system. And printing works
as well. I have printed pages and pages of my Unicode Shavian data. My
Periodic Table of Elements has the font built-in so the PDF should be
viewable on any system that can read PDF -- and should print fine as
well.

I just wish people who create TrueType fonts for Shavian would please
encode the Shavian points at their Unicode values (both private use area
and the proposed Plane 1 space just beyond Deseret).

--Scott


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On jau, 2002-05-09 at 15:52, Scott Harrison wrote:
> Unicode (even in Plane 1) works on a MacOS X system. And printing works
> as well. I have printed pages and pages of my Unicode Shavian data. My
> Periodic Table of Elements has the font built-in so the PDF should be
> viewable on any system that can read PDF -- and should print fine as
> well.

I'll keep that in mind when I'm shopping for my next computer... :)

Meantime, if I can breathe life into my printer once more I'll give a
try at printing Shavian from Linux and see how it goes.

> I just wish people who create TrueType fonts for Shavian would please
> encode the Shavian points at their Unicode values (both private use area
> and the proposed Plane 1 space just beyond Deseret).

Hmm, do you suppose there's any chance of getting James Kass to add
Shavian glyphs to his Code 2001 plane-1 sampler font?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 01:01:29AM -0700, Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> On sab, 2002-05-04 at 16:57, rschmertz wrote:
> > Any Linux/Unix users out there who use Shavian fonts in X Windows?
>
> They work just as well as other TrueType fonts, with caveats: none of
> the Shavian fonts I know of are hinted, and they all look dreadful
> without smoothing/antialiasing unless you blow up the font size to epic
> proportions. Font smoothing is something that's still coming into the
> Linux world bit by bit; the text editor yudit and recent versions of
> Mozilla can do their own TrueType smooth font rendering; some versions
> of KDE and Gnome libraries hook into the new rendering subsystem of
> recent versions of XFree86. You can find instructions on configuring all
> this on the net, somewhere...

Never heard of yudit. You mentioned Mozilla, but did you say you've
gotten Mozilla to use Shavian fonts, or were you just talking about the
fact that it can do its own font smoothing (which I've noticed, though
I've only noticed it for Korean, oddly)? I haven't been able to get
Mozilla to display Shavian; I'm using v 9.9 (Gecko/20020313). The only
apps I've had any luck with so far have been gEdit and gaim (which reminds
me, I don't sign on much, but if anyone does see me signed on to Yahoo
chat (rschmertz), I may be available for Shavian chat! :).

>
> Printing with Shavian fonts is something I've never even attempted.

I imagine if you could create a PostScript file with shavian, it should
print out as you see it. But I'm not an expert in these matters, so I'm
not positive.

>
> If you dare to venture into the scary world of the Unicode encodings
> instead of keyboard Shavian, things get even more fun. The proposed
> encoding is in Plane 1, which is not well (at all?) supported by
> anything. The private-use characters do work (with an appropriately
> encoded font) with Unicode-aware programs, though.

Yeah, too scary for me :-P I already once sent an email to Saundspel
begging for fonts in GIF format because I wanted to test the converter
program I mentioned, and didn't feel like trying to figure out how to
install the TTFs. Response for said converter program, BTW, has been
underwhelming.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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On jau, 2002-05-09 at 22:10, Bob Schmertz wrote:
> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 01:01:29AM -0700, Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> > On sab, 2002-05-04 at 16:57, rschmertz wrote:
> > > Any Linux/Unix users out there who use Shavian fonts in X Windows?
> >
> > They work just as well as other TrueType fonts, with caveats: none of
> > the Shavian fonts I know of are hinted, and they all look dreadful
> > without smoothing/antialiasing unless you blow up the font size to epic
> > proportions. Font smoothing is something that's still coming into the
> > Linux world bit by bit; the text editor yudit and recent versions of
> > Mozilla can do their own TrueType smooth font rendering; some versions
[..]
> Never heard of yudit.

http://yudit.org/

> You mentioned Mozilla, but did you say you've
> gotten Mozilla to use Shavian fonts, or were you just talking about the
> fact that it can do its own font smoothing (which I've noticed, though
> I've only noticed it for Korean, oddly)? I haven't been able to get
> Mozilla to display Shavian; I'm using v 9.9 (Gecko/20020313).

Yes, using the fonts. I'm having difficulty getting it (1.0rc1) to
politely use a Shavian font as requested by a <font> tag or stylesheet,
but I can select one for the "user-defined" character set and explicitly
select that to display a page in. I'll fiddle some more and see what's
what.

There's some cryptic info about setting up the antialiased TrueType
fonts for mozilla here:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/fonts/unix/enabling_truetype.html

You need 9.9 or later; note that the RPM version does not have truetype
support built in, I don't know about other package versions. The binary
tarballs do include said support.

> The only
> apps I've had any luck with so far have been gEdit and gaim (which reminds
> me, I don't sign on much, but if anyone does see me signed on to Yahoo
> chat (rschmertz), I may be available for Shavian chat! :).

Haven't tried those yet...

> > If you dare to venture into the scary world of the Unicode encodings
[..]
> Yeah, too scary for me :-P I already once sent an email to Saundspel
> begging for fonts in GIF format because I wanted to test the converter
> program I mentioned, and didn't feel like trying to figure out how to
> install the TTFs. Response for said converter program, BTW, has been
> underwhelming.

I was going to give it a try, but I don't seem to have the right version
of DB installed so it doesn't compile:

$ make
cc -g -c -o converter.o converter.c
converter.c:7:16: db.h: No such file or directory
make: *** [converter.o] Error 1

I'll go look for that...

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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