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Several good points, Hugh, and I can understand that kind
of set spelling. However, who determines that one
pronunciation is correct? Do we go through and find the
dialect which differentiates between ah and awe and use
that where appropriate?

Just a thought,
Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> I should point out that in most British dialects, we do
> not pronounce 'r's after vowels (unless followed by
> another vowel). However, in Shavian, we write the 'r's
> anyway. It's counter-intuitive, but we manage to do it!
> It would be silly to leave them out, as readers over the
> Atlantic would find it difficult to understand us, and
> that would work against effective communication, which is
> what a written language is supposed to facilitate!
>
> The point of this all is, Shavian wasn't created as a way
> of writing only your own speech down - for the written
> system to be effective at all, you need to form some
> general consensus (by experience, i.e. by communicating
> more and more with others); write things down so they can
> be read well by anyone, with less emphasis on your own
> personal speech. If every word were written down
> differently by each person, legal documents,
> dictionaries, terms and conditions, search engines, etc.
> would count for nothing. Purposely creating transatlantic
> (and indeed regional) spelling differences would
> completely rubbish the whole concept of Shavian.
>
> I know that the fear people have of Shavian becoming as
> set in its spellings as the current alphabet. However, as
> long as there are no major phonemic developments in the
> English language in the foreseeable future, I see no
> reason why people won't be able to re-adapt their
> spellings appropriately if and when any changes in . The
> way things are going, English dialects around the world
> are becoming CLOSER together, rather than further apart,
> so this won't pose any problems. HOWEVER - if and when
> spoken English becomes so different that Shavian no
> longer serves it well, it's obvious the alphabet will
> have to be revised. Shavian's lifespan isn't infinite.
>
> Hugh


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
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In a previous episode, "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@...> said:

> I should point out that in most British dialects, we do not pronounce 'r's
> after vowels (unless followed by another vowel). However, in Shavian, we write
> the 'r's anyway. It's counter-intuitive, but we manage to do it!

Yes, but you see them all the time written. The distinction between these
aaa sounds isn't something many Americans know about. To Westerners,
Appalachians, and NE New Englanders, the only way to know find out if a word
should use ON, AWE, or AH is to look it up in a dictionary, something you
shouldn't need with a phonetic alphabet, and something which doesn't exist
at present.

> Purposely creating
> transatlantic (and indeed regional) spelling differences would completely
> rubbish the whole concept of Shavian.

Standardization and Phoneticism are ideals that are at odds with each other
over distance and time. Traditional orthography takes standardization to
the extreme, nearly abandoning phonetics. Learning to spell like the last
King of England spoke is, for Americans, little improvement over the current
system. When there are two letters that have the same name (awe, ah), the
only reasonable way to make the system usable is to exclude one of them.
That the extra one is used on the other side of the Atlantic would be no
more an impediment to reading than the U in "color" or the reversed RE in
"theater." I recognize these variations, but couldn't tell you exactly
which words they affect? Are there other words with RE besides "theatre?"
Does "savior" have a U in it there? I don't need to waste my time looking
these words up in the dictionary for you to understand me.
>
> The way things are going, English dialects around
> the world are becoming CLOSER together, rather than further apart, so this
> won't pose any problems.

I don't think dialectologists would agree with that. While media English is
getting more homogenous, working class dialects are diverging. In fact,
linguists have been surprised that the dialects of American cities have
strengthened rather than conforming to the model of TV and film. Suburban
Americans speak similarly all over the place, but people IN the cities as
well as those in rural areas have marked accents. If you take a native
speaker of English from India and sit her down with a student of mine from
rural SE Ohio, they would have to work to understand each other.

Craig



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In a previous episode, Bob Schmertz said:

> Seriously, though, the extensions are not a bad idea. Are they somewhat
> established, or are they entirely your (Craig's) invention? More
> particularly, are they open to debate and further revision?
>
> If so, why not an abbreviation for "she"?

They are from the notes on spelling in Androcles. "She" is (or perhaps was)
significantly lower on the list of frequently used words than "he". By the
time Read got to QuickScript, he had extended these sort of abbreviations
substantially and included "she".

I intend to type up the Notes for those who don't have a copy. It speaks
directly to the issues of standardization, including the possibility that
Americans would probably vary their spelling from the initial model set in
the book.

Also, I've created two sets (large and small) of images of the letters in
the book. I'll zip them up and upload them.

Craig



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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /images/Androclesletters.zip
Uploaded by : craigiest <shavian@...>
Description : gifs of individual letters for use on web pages

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/images/Androclesletters.zip

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Regards,

craigiest <shavian@...>







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We all do. By typing in Shavian and letting a standard set itself.

This is one thing we haven't had a chance to try yet, because no one seems to want to write in Shavian any more...

----- Original Message -----
From: Star Raven <mailto:celestraof12worlds@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Is there an Ideal way to type Shaw?

Several good points, Hugh, and I can understand that kind
of set spelling. However, who determines that one
pronunciation is correct? Do we go through and find the
dialect which differentiates between ah and awe and use
that where appropriate?

Just a thought,
Star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@... <mailto:h.birkenhead@...> > wrote:
> I should point out that in most British dialects, we do
> not pronounce 'r's after vowels (unless followed by
> another vowel). However, in Shavian, we write the 'r's
> anyway. It's counter-intuitive, but we manage to do it!
> It would be silly to leave them out, as readers over the
> Atlantic would find it difficult to understand us, and
> that would work against effective communication, which is
> what a written language is supposed to facilitate!
>
> The point of this all is, Shavian wasn't created as a way
> of writing only your own speech down - for the written
> system to be effective at all, you need to form some
> general consensus (by experience, i.e. by communicating
> more and more with others); write things down so they can
> be read well by anyone, with less emphasis on your own
> personal speech. If every word were written down
> differently by each person, legal documents,
> dictionaries, terms and conditions, search engines, etc.
> would count for nothing. Purposely creating transatlantic
> (and indeed regional) spelling differences would
> completely rubbish the whole concept of Shavian.
>
> I know that the fear people have of Shavian becoming as
> set in its spellings as the current alphabet. However, as
> long as there are no major phonemic developments in the
> English language in the foreseeable future, I see no
> reason why people won't be able to re-adapt their
> spellings appropriately if and when any changes in . The
> way things are going, English dialects around the world
> are becoming CLOSER together, rather than further apart,
> so this won't pose any problems. HOWEVER - if and when
> spoken English becomes so different that Shavian no
> longer serves it well, it's obvious the alphabet will
> have to be revised. Shavian's lifespan isn't infinite.
>
> Hugh


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
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I have gotten out of practice in writing it, however, I am
returning to my studies soon and I will take it back up.
The concern, I believe, is that typing would allow for
better reading practice and a more organised version of the
alphabet to see and try to duplicate in handwriting--this
is somewhat like written long hand and typed TO

Pax Vobiscum,
Star


--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> We all do. By typing in Shavian and letting a standard
> set itself.
>
> This is one thing we haven't had a chance to try yet,
> because no one seems to want to write in Shavian any
> more...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Star Raven
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Is there an Ideal way to
> type Shaw?
>
>
> Several good points, Hugh, and I can understand that
> kind
> of set spelling. However, who determines that one
> pronunciation is correct? Do we go through and find the
> dialect which differentiates between ah and awe and use
> that where appropriate?
>
> Just a thought,
> Star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> > I should point out that in most British dialects, we
> do
> > not pronounce 'r's after vowels (unless followed by
> > another vowel). However, in Shavian, we write the
> 'r's
> > anyway. It's counter-intuitive, but we manage to do
> it!
> > It would be silly to leave them out, as readers over
> the
> > Atlantic would find it difficult to understand us,
> and
> > that would work against effective communication,
> which is
> > what a written language is supposed to facilitate!
> >
> > The point of this all is, Shavian wasn't created as a
> way
> > of writing only your own speech down - for the
> written
> > system to be effective at all, you need to form some
> > general consensus (by experience, i.e. by
> communicating
> > more and more with others); write things down so they
> can
> > be read well by anyone, with less emphasis on your
> own
> > personal speech. If every word were written down
> > differently by each person, legal documents,
> > dictionaries, terms and conditions, search engines,
> etc.
> > would count for nothing. Purposely creating
> transatlantic
> > (and indeed regional) spelling differences would
> > completely rubbish the whole concept of Shavian.
> >
> > I know that the fear people have of Shavian becoming
> as
> > set in its spellings as the current alphabet.
> However, as
> > long as there are no major phonemic developments in
> the
> > English language in the foreseeable future, I see no
> > reason why people won't be able to re-adapt their
> > spellings appropriately if and when any changes in .
> The
> > way things are going, English dialects around the
> world
> > are becoming CLOSER together, rather than further
> apart,
> > so this won't pose any problems. HOWEVER - if and
> when
> > spoken English becomes so different that Shavian no
> > longer serves it well, it's obvious the alphabet will
> > have to be revised. Shavian's lifespan isn't
> infinite.
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> =====
> "One ship goes east, another west,
> By the self same gale that blows.
> 'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
> That determines which way it goes."
>
> --Unknown
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
> http://autos.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Click here to find your contact lenses!
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
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Yes, I see your point. But I don't see any way whereby we can handwrite things and let each other read that instead. Unless we all have scanners... but I don't think that would work very well...

----- Original Message -----
From: Star Raven <mailto:celestraof12worlds@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Is there an Ideal way to type Shaw?

I have gotten out of practice in writing it, however, I am
returning to my studies soon and I will take it back up.
The concern, I believe, is that typing would allow for
better reading practice and a more organised version of the
alphabet to see and try to duplicate in handwriting--this
is somewhat like written long hand and typed TO

Pax Vobiscum,
Star


--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> We all do. By typing in Shavian and letting a standard
> set itself.
>
> This is one thing we haven't had a chance to try yet,
> because no one seems to want to write in Shavian any
> more...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Star Raven
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Is there an Ideal way to
> type Shaw?
>
>
> Several good points, Hugh, and I can understand that
> kind
> of set spelling. However, who determines that one
> pronunciation is correct? Do we go through and find the
> dialect which differentiates between ah and awe and use
> that where appropriate?
>
> Just a thought,
> Star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> > I should point out that in most British dialects, we
> do
> > not pronounce 'r's after vowels (unless followed by
> > another vowel). However, in Shavian, we write the
> 'r's
> > anyway. It's counter-intuitive, but we manage to do
> it!
> > It would be silly to leave them out, as readers over
> the
> > Atlantic would find it difficult to understand us,
> and
> > that would work against effective communication,
> which is
> > what a written language is supposed to facilitate!
> >
> > The point of this all is, Shavian wasn't created as a
> way
> > of writing only your own speech down - for the
> written
> > system to be effective at all, you need to form some
> > general consensus (by experience, i.e. by
> communicating
> > more and more with others); write things down so they
> can
> > be read well by anyone, with less emphasis on your
> own
> > personal speech. If every word were written down
> > differently by each person, legal documents,
> > dictionaries, terms and conditions, search engines,
> etc.
> > would count for nothing. Purposely creating
> transatlantic
> > (and indeed regional) spelling differences would
> > completely rubbish the whole concept of Shavian.
> >
> > I know that the fear people have of Shavian becoming
> as
> > set in its spellings as the current alphabet.
> However, as
> > long as there are no major phonemic developments in
> the
> > English language in the foreseeable future, I see no
> > reason why people won't be able to re-adapt their
> > spellings appropriately if and when any changes in .
> The
> > way things are going, English dialects around the
> world
> > are becoming CLOSER together, rather than further
> apart,
> > so this won't pose any problems. HOWEVER - if and
> when
> > spoken English becomes so different that Shavian no
> > longer serves it well, it's obvious the alphabet will
> > have to be revised. Shavian's lifespan isn't
> infinite.
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> =====
> "One ship goes east, another west,
> By the self same gale that blows.
> 'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
> That determines which way it goes."
>
> --Unknown
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
> http://autos.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Click here to find your contact lenses!
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
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Hi Finewineau

Obviously, if we could forsee the future, we could answer these questions
better. But in a perfect world with a perfect alphabet, I would expect
computer word processing programs to auto-correct for accent to produce one
standard English spelling for formal writing, such as books and newspapers.
For non-formal writing, minor accent variations add character to dialogue.

Dictionaries can certainly be ordered on just the consonant sounds in the
word, plus a vowel placeholder.
As you can see from our discussions, that people automatically adjust
their own vowel sounds to the old roman alphabet to produce a consistent
result. In a more consistent Shaw alphabet the compensatory rules to switch
from Rhotic to non-Rhotic pronunciation should be fairly straight forward
even without computer assistance.

Anyway, I am suggesting that rather than basing our pronunciation of
English on King George, (Long dead, poor soul) we move forward to something
more practical for American English. It would be a subset of the existing
Shaw Alphabet with simple clear cut rules for spelling. It does not
supercede the current Shaw Alphabet.

Can we proceed with the clear useful aim of making the Shaw Alphabet user
friendly, and assume that we will have the ingenuity to consolidate the
Spelling of various English accents in the future, when there are actually
enough Shaw readers to make the effort worthwhile.

Any comments?

Regards, Paul V.
______________attached ___________________

At 07:04 AM 7/15/02 +0000, you wrote:
>No offence, but did the irony in this sentence make anyone else laugh.
>
> >Even if someone is aware of and can even
> > imitate the distinction, [...] if there [sic] dialect doesn't
> >differentiate, they
> > cannot determine which homophone they are hearing without context.
>
>I've been reading with interest the recent discussion on when to
>use "awe", "on", "ah" etc and have a question to ask those people who
>have suggested not to use the letters if the accent in question does
>not differentiate between them. I was wondering what will happen
>when (not if) Shavian becomes the standard alphabet. Will there be a
>standard correct spelling? Or will people spell differently
>according to their accents, thereby negating the usefulness of a
>single alphabet, making dictionaries redundant and relegating a lot
>of reading to guesswork?
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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Hi Star Raven
I agree you should recognize different accent groups when reading, but
obviously you should only use the sub-set of letters matching the sounds
you would actually use when writing.
INTERNAL CONSISTENCY IS EVERYTHING.
For complex words that you don't use in spoken fashion (i.e. Literary
English) maybe use a standard spelling

At 07:16 AM 7/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I suggested that you should learn the letters even if you
>don't hear a difference. Thus writing will only slightly be
>affected by dialect and reading will not be guess work. If
>one's dialect has no difference between ah and awe, learn
>both letters as sounding the same. This would take the
>guesswork out of reading.
>
>--Star
>
>--- finewineau <finewineau@...> wrote:
> > No offence, but did the irony in this sentence make
> > anyone else laugh.
> >
> > >Even if someone is aware of and can even
> > > imitate the distinction, [...] if there [sic] dialect
> > doesn't
> > >differentiate, they
> > > cannot determine which homophone they are hearing
> > without context.
> >
> > I've been reading with interest the recent discussion on
> > when to
> > use "awe", "on", "ah" etc and have a question to ask
> > those people who
> > have suggested not to use the letters if the accent in
> > question does
> > not differentiate between them. I was wondering what
> > will happen
> > when (not if) Shavian becomes the standard alphabet. Will
> > there be a
> > standard correct spelling? Or will people spell
> > differently
> > according to their accents, thereby negating the
> > usefulness of a
> > single alphabet, making dictionaries redundant and
> > relegating a lot
> > of reading to guesswork?
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>"One ship goes east, another west,
>By the self same gale that blows.
>'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
>That determines which way it goes."
>
>--Unknown
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
>http://autos.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /texts/Notes on Spelling.doc
Uploaded by : craigiest <shavian@...>
Description : Notes from Androcles and the Lion by the transliterator

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/texts/Notes%20on%20Spelling.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

craigiest <shavian@...>







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