Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

rubik67 wrote:
> --- In shavian@y..., Brion VIBBER <brion@p...> wrote:
>>That's not an "f", it's a "long s". They are quite similar
>> in aspect, but the long s does not have a crossbar.
>
> Wow... now that was a quick response! :-) OK, that
> explains "happinefs", but how about "purfuit"?

As I recall, long s was used pretty much everywhere except word-finally,
where the curvy lowercase s we know and love today was used.

(This turned up on a google search for "typography long s":
http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/howto.html )

The long s is Unicode character 017f: ? (may not appear correctly in all
mail readers). Note that in some typefaces it appears with a little tick
on the left side, but this does _not_ go all the way through. It should
be visibly distinct from a lowercase f.

> Anyway, I
> think the point is sufficiently clear, that being that
> characters have changed shape before, but people can still
> figure out what's being said.

Tgey rarely cganhe sgape to the exact sgape of otger letters, tgouhg!

> A couple of clues which would
> make it obvious which is which, such as ng not being used at
> the beginning of words, and h not being used at the end. If
> all else fails, you could always reverse how you type those
> characters, which makes as much sense, for example, as
> typing j for "yew" and M for "ooze". :-) L8r.

I've been thinking about setting up a keyboard layout for Shavian which
would abandon all pretense of being associated with the latin letters or
QWERTY. The exact placement of characters would likely be determined
algorithmically by simulating actual keystrokes based on Shavian texts
available on the web. (There was an article on slashdot a while ago
about someone doing such a thing to see if he could make the Dvorak
layout more efficient -- I've lost the link for the moment.)

The thing I haven't yet decided is whether to try to squish all the Shaw
letters into the Latin letters' space by doubling up tall/deep and
mirrored short letters with shift (which could mean a LOT of hitting
that shift key!) or eating up the numbers and some of the punctuation to
get things down to one-key-one-letter as much as possible (similar to
a Japanese kana keyboard layout). Latin letters and numbers would still
be accessible via AltGr or switching keyboard layouts, of course.

Of course, no one would ever use this layout. :)

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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--- In shavian@y..., Brion VIBBER <brion@p...> wrote:
> rubik67 wrote:
> > Anyway, I
> > think the point is sufficiently clear, that being that
> > characters have changed shape before, but people can
still
> > figure out what's being said.
>
> Tgey rarely cganhe sgape to the exact sgape of otger
letters, tgouhg!

Goof point. :-)

> The thing I haven't yet decided is whether to try to
squish all the Shaw
> letters into the Latin letters' space by doubling up
tall/deep and
> mirrored short letters with shift (which could mean a LOT
of hitting
> that shift key!) or eating up the numbers and some of the
punctuation to
> get things down to one-key-one-letter as much as
possible (similar to
> a Japanese kana keyboard layout). Latin letters and
numbers would still
> be accessible via AltGr or switching keyboard layouts, of
course.

Interesting. Of course, there's plenty of shift key hitting
right now. I'm not really sure which puctuation would be
left behind, though, as it looks like every character key on
the standard keyboard would have to be used in order to
completely eliminate the use of shift. I'd be interested to
see what you come up with.
>
> Of course, no one would ever use this layout. :)

You never know. Of course, not making it would be a great
way to guarantee that. :-) L8r.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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--- In shavian@y..., "rubik67" <rubik67@y...> wrote:
> Goof point. :-)

Oops... that should have been "good point", but I'm sure you
probably figured that out. ;-) L8r.




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but the point is that we are trying to move AWAY from the
Roman alphabet. If we make enough changes, why not just
keep with the roman alphabet and use reedspel or ipa?

Another Geek in the Fray
--Star

--- Paul Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> Hi Bob
> I agree there are some refinements that could be made to
> the Shaw Alphabet.
> See my www.shawalphabet.com for a compilation of changes
> to the Shaw
> Alphabet including an improved "h" and "ng". It actually
> makes the "ng"
> resemble the "n" and "m". And the new "h" letter
> resembles the "W". And the
> "y" looks more like the Roman "y".
> All those nice changes that you talk about.
>
> But changes of this extent can not be made in a HAPHAZARD
> Arbitrary fashion
> to a working system. We have to treat as a Revision and
> do it in planned and
> incremental manner. Much in the way that Software
> Companies put out new
> improved version of a software package every 5 years.
> And they also try and preserve upward compatibility.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
>
>
__________________attached_____________________________________
>
>
> >From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...>
> >Reply-To: shavian@...
> >To: shavian@...
> >Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
> >Date: 12 Aug 2002 01:18:10 -0400
> >
> >On Sun, 2002-08-11 at 17:36, rubik67 wrote:
> > > --- In shavian@y..., "finewineau" <finewineau@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > It occured to me that hung and ha-ha seem to have
> swapped letters.
> > > I
> > > > read the back log of posts and found there had been
> a discussion on
> > > > this subject some time ago (i.e. that a clerical
> error may have
> > > been
> > > > made). What is the latest?
> > >
> > > Yes, I noticed that, too. I'm sure I'll get flamed
> left and right for
> > > this, but I swapped those two letters in my new font,
> along with err
> > > and air, which I'll be uploading tomorrow. Even if
> Read didn't change
> > > it himself with Quikscript, it makes sense to do so,
> as h really
> > > should be a tall letter like all the other voiceless
> characters,
> > > while ng should be deep like the voiced equivalents.
> It also makes
> > > sense based on ng's name. Now "hung" actually hangs
> down instead of
> > > reaching up to the sky. The same problem seems to
> happen for w and y,
> > > which would imply that "yew" is improperly
> constructed, but I've left
> > > that alone, since the new "yew" would be too easily
> confused
> > > with "ooze". L8r.
> > >
> >
> >Let me just say bravo. I hope this change sticks,
> somehow. I'm not
> >sure that your complaint about y and w, is really the
> same as the
> >obviously incorrect "hung-vs-ha-ha" issue, though it
> would have been
> >nice for the "yea" to closely resemble the lowercase y.
> >
> >--
> >Cheers,
> >Bob Schmertz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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Let me be a terrible hipocrit and say that this is a change
that I would see as being suitable, working with the "when
in doubt is it a voiced or voiceless" idea sort of fits.

The devil's advocate,
--Star

--- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> happen: too much
> > tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is
> a
> book out
> > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
>
> Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
> until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
>
> existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has
> been
> out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to
> pieces
> and been tossed from every library which had a copy of
> it,
> isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
>
> > You can't just go swapping letters.
>
> Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he
> not?
>
> > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
> raised to be
> > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
>
> render
> > everything already written extremely difficult to read
> if
> it caught
> > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books
> had g
> and h
> > swapped?
>
> Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may
> not
> have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your
> own
> (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
>
> happinefs".
>
> > How about not adding to the confusion.
>
> On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the
> confusion,
> but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message,
> it
> only makes sense for H to be tall like the other
> voiceless
> characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung)
> implies.
> L8r.
>
>


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you mean not "goos point"?

--Star

--- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@y..., "rubik67" <rubik67@y...> wrote:
> > Goof point. :-)
>
> Oops... that should have been "good point", but I'm sure
> you
> probably figured that out. ;-) L8r.
>
>
>


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also, let me be worse to say that I mispelled "hipocrit"
which is to say hypocrite....@#%$ Roman alphabet

--Star

--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> Let me be a terrible hipocrit and say that this is a
> change
> that I would see as being suitable, working with the
> "when
> in doubt is it a voiced or voiceless" idea sort of fits.
>
> The devil's advocate,
> --Star
>
> --- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> > > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> > happen: too much
> > > tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There
> is
> > a
> > book out
> > > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
> >
> > Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took
> me
> > until April 18th of this year to even become aware of
> its
> >
> > existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has
> > been
> > out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to
> > pieces
> > and been tossed from every library which had a copy of
> > it,
> > isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
> >
> > > You can't just go swapping letters.
> >
> > Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he
> > not?
> >
> > > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA
> be
> > raised to be
> > > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that
> wouldn't
> >
> > render
> > > everything already written extremely difficult to
> read
> > if
> > it caught
> > > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books
> > had g
> > and h
> > > swapped?
> >
> > Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may
> > not
> > have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in
> your
> > own
> > (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit
> of
> >
> > happinefs".
> >
> > > How about not adding to the confusion.
> >
> > On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the
> > confusion,
> > but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message,
> > it
> > only makes sense for H to be tall like the other
> > voiceless
> > characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung)
> > implies.
> > L8r.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> "You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
> --Julius, Planet of the Apes
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> also, let me be worse to say that I mispelled "hipocrit"
> which is to say hypocrite....@#%$ Roman alphabet

Aside from the nonexistent c, I suppose you could always say that you
were using the Shaw spelling. ;-) L8r.



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Hi Star/Devil
Raven/Advocate

Unfortunately, voiced/voiceless pairs do not carry over to the Nasal sounds
and other Semi-vowels.
Internal consistency should be an ideal, but I believe practical
considerations should take precedence.
Consider the practicality of the Shaw Alphabet.
It appears that they didn't come up with a esthetic solution for the
Hung Ha-Ha pair of letters. They are not the voiced/voiceless form of the
same sound and yet they are paired together.
There are other more esthetic and practical solutions.
A solution.
Replace the letter for Hung with a large tilde ~ .
It would then have a similar form to the other nasals. (mime,none)
Any other practical ideas?

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
"tier" and "tear".
To me,
it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
it sounds like tear is tot+ear.
It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful thinking.
Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

________________attached________________________________________


>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
>Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Let me be a terrible hipocrit and say that this is a change
>that I would see as being suitable, working with the "when
>in doubt is it a voiced or voiceless" idea sort of fits.
>
>The devil's advocate,
>--Star
>
>--- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> > > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> > happen: too much
> > > tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is
> > a
> > book out
> > > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
> >
> > Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
> > until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
> >
> > existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has
> > been
> > out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to
> > pieces
> > and been tossed from every library which had a copy of
> > it,
> > isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
> >
> > > You can't just go swapping letters.
> >
> > Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he
> > not?
> >
> > > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
> > raised to be
> > > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
> >
> > render
> > > everything already written extremely difficult to read
> > if
> > it caught
> > > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books
> > had g
> > and h
> > > swapped?
> >
> > Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may
> > not
> > have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your
> > own
> > (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
> >
> > happinefs".
> >
> > > How about not adding to the confusion.
> >
> > On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the
> > confusion,
> > but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message,
> > it
> > only makes sense for H to be tall like the other
> > voiceless
> > characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung)
> > implies.
> > L8r.
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
>--Julius, Planet of the Apes
>
>__________________________________________________
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>HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>http://www.hotjobs.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Hi Star/Devil
Raven/Advocate

Unfortunately, voiced/voiceless pairs do not carry over to the Nasal sounds
and other Semi-vowels.
Internal consistency should be an ideal, but I believe practical
considerations should take precedence.
Consider the practicality of the Shaw Alphabet.
It appears that they didn't come up with a esthetic solution for the
Hung Ha-Ha pair of letters. They are not the voiced/voiceless form of the
same sound and yet they are paired together.
There are other more esthetic and practical solutions.
A solution.
Replace the letter for Hung with a large tilde ~ .
It would then have a similar form to the other nasals. (mime,none)
Any other practical ideas?

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
"tier" and "tear".
To me,
it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
it sounds like tear is tot+ear.
It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful thinking.
Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

________________attached________________________________________


>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
>Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Let me be a terrible hipocrit and say that this is a change
>that I would see as being suitable, working with the "when
>in doubt is it a voiced or voiceless" idea sort of fits.
>
>The devil's advocate,
>--Star
>
>--- rubik67 <rubik67@...> wrote:
> > --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> > > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> > happen: too much
> > > tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is
> > a
> > book out
> > > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
> >
> > Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
> > until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
> >
> > existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has
> > been
> > out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to
> > pieces
> > and been tossed from every library which had a copy of
> > it,
> > isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
> >
> > > You can't just go swapping letters.
> >
> > Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he
> > not?
> >
> > > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
> > raised to be
> > > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
> >
> > render
> > > everything already written extremely difficult to read
> > if
> > it caught
> > > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books
> > had g
> > and h
> > > swapped?
> >
> > Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may
> > not
> > have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your
> > own
> > (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
> >
> > happinefs".
> >
> > > How about not adding to the confusion.
> >
> > On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the
> > confusion,
> > but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message,
> > it
> > only makes sense for H to be tall like the other
> > voiceless
> > characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung)
> > implies.
> > L8r.
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
>--Julius, Planet of the Apes
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>






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