Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Hugh
It does seem to be break-thru. I am pleasantly surprised how few basic
English words depend on the Shaw "ah" sound. The words that retain the "ah"
sound seem to be older, very common words, sometimes even religious words.
Perhaps, because they are so commonly used the original pronunciation has
been retained, and not evolved into "ash". I don't see having a small list
of well known exceptions that use the Shaw letter "ah" would be a problem.
As you correctly pointed out, "ah" is definitely needed for foreign loan
words such as "espionage", "rationale", "substratum", "Nazi", "Ghana",
"Panama" and "France".

Also there were a few words that I were surprised to hear are not so common
in British English when pronounced with an "ash".
(telegraph, staff, posture, glands, example, disaster)
They are consistently "ash" for American pronunciation.

We definitely do need to work toward a common international dictionary,
even if at this point we need to provide both and British and an alternate
American pronunciation for a very limited number of words.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. What is gMJDytI ?
__________________attached ________________________
At 10:19 PM 7/30/02 +0100, you wrote:
>AligzyndD
>/VgaslyvIa
>/bahymaz
>/cekazlavykIa
>/fryns
>/frynsis
>/gyna
>/klIapytra
>/kwyla /lUmpUD
>/nytsI
>/pAnamy
>Afrikynz
>Syft
>advyns
>advyntaJ
>banyna
>blyst
>brync
>brys
>byskat
>cyns
>dimynd
>dizystD
>dryfts
>dryma
>espjanyZ
>fUtpyHz
>fyHD
>fysan
>fyst
>
>glyns
>glys
>glysaz
>grysp
>hyf
>igzympalz
>inhyns
>kamynd
>kamyndad
>klys
>klysafFd
>klysaz
>klysp
>kontryst
>kryft
>kym
>kynt
>kyst
>lyst
>mysk
>mystD
>mystDpIsaz
>pAkistyn
>plynt
>pyT
>pym
>pys
>pyscDz
>pysiN
>pyspPts
>pyst
>rASanyl
>ryHD
>ryHD
>styf
>substrytam
>sym
>telagryf
>tysk
>vyst
>y
>yftD
>yftDwDdz
>ymen
>ynsD
>ysk




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Resend due to Transmission Error
>To: shavian@...
>From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...>
>Subject: 'Ah' problem - solution & response.
>
>Hi Hugh
>It does seem to be break-thru. I am pleasantly surprised how few basic
>English words depend on the Shaw "ah" sound. The words that retain the
>"ah" sound seem to be older, very common words, sometimes even religious
>words. Perhaps, because they are so commonly used the original
>pronunciation has been retained, and not evolved into "ash". I don't see
>having a small list of well known exceptions that use the Shaw letter "ah"
>would be a problem. As you correctly pointed out, "ah" is definitely
>needed for foreign loan words such as "espionage", "rationale",
>"substratum", "Nazi", "Ghana", "Panama" and "France".
>
>Also there were a few words that I were surprised to hear are not so
>common in British English when pronounced with an "ash".
>(telegraph, staff, posture, glands, example, disaster)
>They are consistently "ash" for American pronunciation.
>
>We definitely do need to work toward a common international dictionary,
>even if at this point we need to provide both and British and an alternate
>American pronunciation for a very limited number of words.
>Regards, Paul V.
>P.S. What is gMJDytI ?
>__________________attached ________________________
>At 10:19 PM 7/30/02 +0100, you wrote:
>>AligzyndD
>>/VgaslyvIa
>>/bahymaz
>>/cekazlavykIa
>>/fryns
>>/frynsis
>>/gyna
>>/klIapytra
>>/kwyla /lUmpUD
>>/nytsI
>>/pAnamy
>>Afrikynz
>>Syft
>>advyns
>>advyntaJ
>>banyna
>>blyst
>>brync
>>brys
>>byskat
>>cyns
>>dimynd
>>dizystD
>>dryfts
>>dryma
>>espjanyZ
>>fUtpyHz
>>fyHD
>>fysan
>>fyst
>>
>>glyns
>>glys
>>glysaz
>>grysp
>>hyf
>>igzympalz
>>inhyns
>>kamynd
>>kamyndad
>>klys
>>klysafFd
>>klysaz
>>klysp
>>kontryst
>>kryft
>>kym
>>kynt
>>kyst
>>lyst
>>mysk
>>mystD
>>mystDpIsaz
>>pAkistyn
>>plynt
>>pyT
>>pym
>>pys
>>pyscDz
>>pysiN
>>pyspPts
>>pyst
>>rASanyl
>>ryHD
>>ryHD
>>styf
>>substrytam
>>sym
>>telagryf
>>tysk
>>vyst
>>y
>>yftD
>>yftDwDdz
>>ymen
>>ynsD
>>ysk




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I'm curious as to what your transliteration was...hmm, my
novel is 157,300 words (*evil grin*). Anyway, I read
somewhere that most people use about 800 words a day, while
those who have a larger vocabulary (and use it) use over a
thousand words... My dicionary has 70,000 definitions as a
reference. Anyway, let us assume that the transliteration
contains a normal vocabulary set. If you can narrow it down
to a small number of words that "should" have the ah
charcater instead of the ash character, I salute you.
Hoorah!

It is now 6:30 am, and I am not awake yet. I hope that this
reply makes some sort of sense... if not I will send a
proper reply later.

Keep on smiling,
--Star
--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> Paul and others - I believe we have a breakthrough!
>
> I have completed my search through the larger of my own
> transliterations (47,336 words!!!) to study my use of
> 'ah'. Basically, I performed a search through all my
> transliterated texts, and had it pick out all those words
> that contained the 'ah' character.
>
> Out of over 47,000 words, there were only about 100 words
> that used 'ah'. I then removed all duplicate and
> directly related words from the list; that left only 76!
> [Apologies for the amount of scrolling required to get
> down the list, but it's the best way of viewing the
> words, I feel.]
>
> /AligzyndD
> /VgaslyvIa
> /bahymaz
> /cekazlavykIa
> /fryns
> /frynsis
> /gyna
> /klIapytra
> /kwyla /lUmpUD
> /nytsI
> /pAnamy
> Afrikynz
> Syft
> advyns
> advyntaJ
> banyna
> blyst
> brync
> brys
> byskat
> cyns
> dimynd
> dizystD
> dryfts
> dryma
> espjanyZ
> fUtpyHz
> fyHD
> fysan
> fyst
> gMJDytI
> glyns
> glys
> glysaz
> grysp
> hyf
> igzympalz
> inhyns
> kamynd
> kamyndad
> klys
> klysafFd
> klysaz
> klysp
> kontryst
> kryft
> kym
> kynt
> kyst
> lyst
> mysk
> mystD
> mystDpIsaz
> pAkistyn
> plynt
> pyT
> pym
> pys
> pyscDz
> pysiN
> pyspPts
> pyst
> rASanyl
> ryHD
> ryHD
> styf
> substrytam
> sym
> telagryf
> tysk
> vyst
> y
> yftD
> yftDwDdz
> ymen
> ynsD
> ysk
>
> Now as we can see, there are quite a lot of words using
> 'ah'. But not all of them *have* to. As I explained
> earlier, in the UK at least, 'ah' is often
> interchangeable with 'ash'. If we remove the words in the
> above list that can just as well take 'ash', the list
> looks decidedly thinner:
>
> /VgaslyvIa
> /bahymaz
> /gyna
> /kwyla /lUmpUD
> /nytsI
> /pAnamy
> Afrikynz
> banyna
> dryma
> espjanyZ
> fyHD
> gMJDytI
> hyf
> kym
> pym
> rASanyl
> ryHD
> substrytam
> sym
> y!
> ymen
>
> A few of the above words still aren't the same as
> American pronunciation, such as "banana", "rather",
> "amen", "half" (and possibly "drama"??), but those
> differences hardly constitute a major transatlantic
> incompatibility.
>
> So if we apply the 'use ash when possible' rule, only 21
> words out of 47,336 have to use 'ah'. And it's also worth
> considering that six of the above words are *names*, e.g.
> Ghana, Bahamas, etc., so in fact, it should be only 15
> words. Fifteen words out of forty-seven thousand.
>
> The 'ah' phoneme would be reserved for the very few
> occurrences (relatively speaking) where it does occur,
> e.g. in common words such as "father". It would be used
> in the 'al' words like "palm", "calm", "balm", etc., and
> in foreign words/names like "espionage", "rationale",
> "substratum", "Nazi", etc. Speakers of English who wanted
> to preserve their 'ah'-based dialect could still elect to
> use 'ah' in personal/regional speech, but for
> national/international purposes they would stick to 'ash'
> wherever possible.
>
> I would be VERY interested in everybody's views at this
> point. I believe we have here a solution to the 'ah'
> phoneme problem. I'm sure that people in this country
> would have little problem in avoiding 'ah' where they
> don't *need* to use it (since they already know how to);
> the question now is, would Americans be prepared to learn
> the (VERY) small amount of remaining words that do have
> to use 'ah' over here?
>
> There's food for thought... bon appetit!! :)
>
> Hugh
>


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
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> As you correctly pointed out, "ah" is definitely needed
> for foreign loan
> words such as "espionage", "rationale", "substratum",
> "Nazi", "Ghana",
> "Panama" and "France".

Speaking for the gauche side of the atlantic: rationale and
substratum are both pronounced with ash where an /a/
appears. France is also Pronounced with ash.

>
> Also there were a few words that I were surprised to hear
> are not so common
> in British English when pronounced with an "ash".
> (telegraph, staff, posture, glands, example, disaster)
> They are consistently "ash" for American pronunciation.

Posture or pasture? Posture uses on, Pasture uses ash.

Also, Frock and Frog have the same vowel sound /on/, while
fraught and fraud have the same vowel /awe/.

Isn't it nice to see such a discussion on such a (rather
high-brow) topic as shavian?

--Star

=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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Hi Star Raven
Thanks for your encouragement.
Most people have the same attitude towards phonetics as their internal
organs. They're amazed that it works so well, but they really don't want to
know the nitty gritty details.

I think having a fixed list of exceptional words that are only recognized
by the majority of the British, with the "ah" sound is very useful. Clearly
these words are a bit of a land mine to Americans and Canadians.
As you pointed out I was mistaken and thought the word with the "ah" was
"posture". In fact it is pasture. Even tho as a Canadian, I am not entirely
untutored in British Pronunciation, and I have read Androcles, I don't have
the same understanding of the accent as a native speaker.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. What is gM J DytI ? Goodjerahty? It was in the list
P.P.S. My "frog" has an "awe"
_____________attached________________________________
At 05:03 AM 7/31/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > As you correctly pointed out, "ah" is definitely needed
> > for foreign loan
> > words such as "espionage", "rationale", "substratum",
> > "Nazi", "Ghana",
> > "Panama" and "France".
>
>Speaking for the gauche side of the atlantic: rationale and
>substratum are both pronounced with ash where an /a/
>appears. France is also Pronounced with ash.
>
> >
> > Also there were a few words that I were surprised to hear
> > are not so common
> > in British English when pronounced with an "ash".
> > (telegraph, staff, posture, glands, example, disaster)
> > They are consistently "ash" for American pronunciation.
>
>Posture or pasture? Posture uses on, Pasture uses ash.
>
>Also, Frock and Frog have the same vowel sound /on/, while
>fraught and fraud have the same vowel /awe/.
>
>Isn't it nice to see such a discussion on such a (rather
>high-brow) topic as shavian?
>
>--Star
>
>=====
>"One ship goes east, another west,
>By the self same gale that blows.
>'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
>That determines which way it goes."
>
>--Unknown
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
>http://health.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:29 , Paul Gershon Vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Star Raven
> Thanks for your encouragement.
> Most people have the same attitude towards phonetics as their internal
> organs. They're amazed that it works so well, but they really don't
> want to
> know the nitty gritty details.
>
> I think having a fixed list of exceptional words that are only
> recognized
> by the majority of the British, with the "ah" sound is very useful.
> Clearly
> these words are a bit of a land mine to Americans and Canadians.
> As you pointed out I was mistaken and thought the word with the "ah" was
> "posture". In fact it is pasture. Even tho as a Canadian, I am not
> entirely
> untutored in British Pronunciation, and I have read Androcles, I don't
> have
> the same understanding of the accent as a native speaker.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. What is gM J DytI ? Goodjerahty? It was in the list
>
Gujarati...amongst other things is a language spoken in India.

--Scott



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--- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:

> Gujarati...amongst other things is a language spoken in India.

This brings up an interesting problem--how to transcribe foreign words
into Shavian. Almost all of the list of AH exceptions that don't
become ASH are non-English. (The others, such as "father" have ON for
me.) And we're certainly slaughtering the pronunciation anyway, so I
would write them with the phonemes I have in my own dialect. In
actuality, I might try to pronounce foreign words "correctly," but the
Shaw alphabet isn't equipped to represent that, so I would hesitate to
use the two extra phonemes it has beyond my set to try to more closely
approximate native pronunciation when it can't be done with any other
sounds. For Spanish, one is forced to write bilabial fricative /B/ as
VOW, flapped and trilled R as ROAR, interdental T and D as TOT and
DEAD, when those aren't really the right sounds. Even if British AH
happens to sound more like Spanish A than ON does, I'm already forcing
the language to conform to English phonetics, so it makes sense that I
wouldn't introduce one "foreign" sound that would keep it from
matching the American I speak.

Craig



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Gujurati - it's a language spoken by some people from India, I think. It was in one of my transliterations.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] 'Awe' problem - solution & response.

Hi Star Raven
Thanks for your encouragement.
Most people have the same attitude towards phonetics as their internal
organs. They're amazed that it works so well, but they really don't want to
know the nitty gritty details.

I think having a fixed list of exceptional words that are only recognized
by the majority of the British, with the "ah" sound is very useful. Clearly
these words are a bit of a land mine to Americans and Canadians.
As you pointed out I was mistaken and thought the word with the "ah" was
"posture". In fact it is pasture. Even tho as a Canadian, I am not entirely
untutored in British Pronunciation, and I have read Androcles, I don't have
the same understanding of the accent as a native speaker.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. What is gM J DytI ? Goodjerahty? It was in the list
P.P.S. My "frog" has an "awe"
_____________attached________________________________
At 05:03 AM 7/31/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > As you correctly pointed out, "ah" is definitely needed
> > for foreign loan
> > words such as "espionage", "rationale", "substratum",
> > "Nazi", "Ghana",
> > "Panama" and "France".
>
>Speaking for the gauche side of the atlantic: rationale and
>substratum are both pronounced with ash where an /a/
>appears. France is also Pronounced with ash.
>
> >
> > Also there were a few words that I were surprised to hear
> > are not so common
> > in British English when pronounced with an "ash".
> > (telegraph, staff, posture, glands, example, disaster)
> > They are consistently "ash" for American pronunciation.
>
>Posture or pasture? Posture uses on, Pasture uses ash.
>
>Also, Frock and Frog have the same vowel sound /on/, while
>fraught and fraud have the same vowel /awe/.
>
>Isn't it nice to see such a discussion on such a (rather
>high-brow) topic as shavian?
>
>--Star
>
>=====
>"One ship goes east, another west,
>By the self same gale that blows.
>'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
>That determines which way it goes."
>
>--Unknown
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
>http://health.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 07:41 , craigiest wrote:

> --- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:
>
>> Gujarati...amongst other things is a language spoken in India.
>
> This brings up an interesting problem--how to transcribe foreign words
> into Shavian.
>
>
I think the way I tackled the problem is the proper way (at least in my
mind). I did nothing to the foreign words. In other words, when "Ach
du lieber" appears in the middle of my text I leave it in Roman
characters since it is German and not English. If the word is a foreign
word originally but has been adopted into English (like the French
"sans") then I would transcribe it into Shavian characters. You can see
an example of French and German in the Shavian in my transcription of
"The Swineherd" on my web site.

--Scott



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Hi Scott

I think that is the best solution for the moment. If it is foreign
word, not recognisably in the English vocabulary at all, and where
that language does uses the Roman Alphabet transcription, then we
should just spell it out in Roman characters in quotes. I expect the
Roman Alphabet to coexist with the Shaw Alphabet for the immediate
future. :)
Eventually there should be tools for switching text back and forth
automatically between alphabets, but for now it is a manual effort.
Guranti as a valid English word, should use Shaw transcription tho.

I guess it is an overlapping area, but English has absorbed many
common foreign place and language names and those would be considered
part of the English vocabulary, and so spelt phonetically in Shavian.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink


P.S. Thanks everyone out in the group who were kind enough to tell me
what the word Guranti was. It just wasn't in my personal vocabulary.
There is a definate need for a Shaw Dictionary.

--- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:
>
> On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 07:41 , craigiest wrote:
>
> > --- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:
> >
> >> Gujarati...amongst other things is a language spoken in India.
> >
> > This brings up an interesting problem--how to transcribe foreign
words
> > into Shavian.
> >
> >
> I think the way I tackled the problem is the proper way (at least
in my
> mind). I did nothing to the foreign words. In other words,
when "Ach
> du lieber" appears in the middle of my text I leave it in Roman
> characters since it is German and not English. If the word is a
foreign
> word originally but has been adopted into English (like the French
> "sans") then I would transcribe it into Shavian characters. You
can see
> an example of French and German in the Shavian in my transcription
of
> "The Swineherd" on my web site.
>
> --Scott



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