Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Scott
Excuse me. I mispelled Gujarati in last message.
Paul V.

> I think that is the best solution for the moment. If it is
foreign
> word, not recognisably in the English vocabulary at all, and where
> that language does uses the Roman Alphabet transcription, then we
> should just spell it out in Roman characters in quotes. I expect
the
> Roman Alphabet to coexist with the Shaw Alphabet for the immediate
> future. :)
> Eventually there should be tools for switching text back and forth
> automatically between alphabets, but for now it is a manual effort.
> Guranti as a valid English word, should use Shaw transcription tho.
>
> I guess it is an overlapping area, but English has absorbed many
> common foreign place and language names and those would be
considered
> part of the English vocabulary, and so spelt phonetically in
Shavian.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
>
>
> P.S. Thanks everyone out in the group who were kind enough to tell
me
> what the word Guranti was. It just wasn't in my personal vocabulary.
> There is a definate need for a Shaw Dictionary.
>
> --- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 07:41 , craigiest wrote:
> >
> > > --- In shavian@y..., Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Gujarati...amongst other things is a language spoken in India.
> > >
> > > This brings up an interesting problem--how to transcribe
foreign
> words
> > > into Shavian.
> > >
> > >
> > I think the way I tackled the problem is the proper way (at least
> in my
> > mind). I did nothing to the foreign words. In other words,
> when "Ach
> > du lieber" appears in the middle of my text I leave it in Roman
> > characters since it is German and not English. If the word is a
> foreign
> > word originally but has been adopted into English (like the
French
> > "sans") then I would transcribe it into Shavian characters. You
> can see
> > an example of French and German in the Shavian in my
transcription
> of
> > "The Swineherd" on my web site.
> >
> > --Scott



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pvandenbrink11 wrote:
> I think that is the best solution for the moment. If it is foreign
> word, not recognisably in the English vocabulary at all, and where
> that language does uses the Roman Alphabet transcription, then we
> should just spell it out in Roman characters in quotes.

This is similar to what Germans did about seventy years ago -- they printed
using Fraktur fonts (also known as "black letter" or "Gothic") and would use
a "normal" (Antiqua) font for words from other languages which were not
naturalised.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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--- In shavian@y..., "finewineau" <finewineau@y...> wrote:
> It occured to me that hung and ha-ha seem to have swapped letters.
I
> read the back log of posts and found there had been a discussion on
> this subject some time ago (i.e. that a clerical error may have
been
> made). What is the latest?

Yes, I noticed that, too. I'm sure I'll get flamed left and right for
this, but I swapped those two letters in my new font, along with err
and air, which I'll be uploading tomorrow. Even if Read didn't change
it himself with Quikscript, it makes sense to do so, as h really
should be a tall letter like all the other voiceless characters,
while ng should be deep like the voiced equivalents. It also makes
sense based on ng's name. Now "hung" actually hangs down instead of
reaching up to the sky. The same problem seems to happen for w and y,
which would imply that "yew" is improperly constructed, but I've left
that alone, since the new "yew" would be too easily confused
with "ooze". L8r.



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On Sun, 2002-08-11 at 17:36, rubik67 wrote:
> --- In shavian@y..., "finewineau" <finewineau@y...> wrote:
> > It occured to me that hung and ha-ha seem to have swapped letters.
> I
> > read the back log of posts and found there had been a discussion on
> > this subject some time ago (i.e. that a clerical error may have
> been
> > made). What is the latest?
>
> Yes, I noticed that, too. I'm sure I'll get flamed left and right for
> this, but I swapped those two letters in my new font, along with err
> and air, which I'll be uploading tomorrow. Even if Read didn't change
> it himself with Quikscript, it makes sense to do so, as h really
> should be a tall letter like all the other voiceless characters,
> while ng should be deep like the voiced equivalents. It also makes
> sense based on ng's name. Now "hung" actually hangs down instead of
> reaching up to the sky. The same problem seems to happen for w and y,
> which would imply that "yew" is improperly constructed, but I've left
> that alone, since the new "yew" would be too easily confused
> with "ooze". L8r.
>

Let me just say bravo. I hope this change sticks, somehow. I'm not
sure that your complaint about y and w, is really the same as the
obviously incorrect "hung-vs-ha-ha" issue, though it would have been
nice for the "yea" to closely resemble the lowercase y.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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> On Sun, 2002-08-11 at 17:36, rubik67 wrote:
> > --- In shavian@y..., "finewineau" <finewineau@y...> wrote:
I swapped those two letters in my new font, along with err
> > and air, which I'll be uploading tomorrow. Even if Read didn't change
> > it himself with Quikscript, it makes sense to do so, as h really
> > should be a tall letter like all the other voiceless characters,
> > while ng should be deep like the voiced equivalents. It also makes
> > sense based on ng's name. Now "hung" actually hangs down instead of
> > reaching up to the sky.

This is one major reason spelling reform will never happen: too much
tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is a book out
there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian. You can't just go
swapping letters. Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be raised to be
tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't render
everything already written extremely difficult to read if it caught
on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books had g and h
swapped? How about not adding to the confusion.



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Hi Bob
I agree there are some refinements that could be made to the Shaw Alphabet.
See my www.shawalphabet.com for a compilation of changes to the Shaw
Alphabet including an improved "h" and "ng". It actually makes the "ng"
resemble the "n" and "m". And the new "h" letter resembles the "W". And the
"y" looks more like the Roman "y".
All those nice changes that you talk about.

But changes of this extent can not be made in a HAPHAZARD Arbitrary fashion
to a working system. We have to treat as a Revision and do it in planned and
incremental manner. Much in the way that Software Companies put out new
improved version of a software package every 5 years.
And they also try and preserve upward compatibility.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink

__________________attached_____________________________________


>From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
>Date: 12 Aug 2002 01:18:10 -0400
>
>On Sun, 2002-08-11 at 17:36, rubik67 wrote:
> > --- In shavian@y..., "finewineau" <finewineau@y...> wrote:
> > > It occured to me that hung and ha-ha seem to have swapped letters.
> > I
> > > read the back log of posts and found there had been a discussion on
> > > this subject some time ago (i.e. that a clerical error may have
> > been
> > > made). What is the latest?
> >
> > Yes, I noticed that, too. I'm sure I'll get flamed left and right for
> > this, but I swapped those two letters in my new font, along with err
> > and air, which I'll be uploading tomorrow. Even if Read didn't change
> > it himself with Quikscript, it makes sense to do so, as h really
> > should be a tall letter like all the other voiceless characters,
> > while ng should be deep like the voiced equivalents. It also makes
> > sense based on ng's name. Now "hung" actually hangs down instead of
> > reaching up to the sky. The same problem seems to happen for w and y,
> > which would imply that "yew" is improperly constructed, but I've left
> > that alone, since the new "yew" would be too easily confused
> > with "ooze". L8r.
> >
>
>Let me just say bravo. I hope this change sticks, somehow. I'm not
>sure that your complaint about y and w, is really the same as the
>obviously incorrect "hung-vs-ha-ha" issue, though it would have been
>nice for the "yea" to closely resemble the lowercase y.
>
>--
>Cheers,
>Bob Schmertz
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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--- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> This is one major reason spelling reform will never
happen: too much
> tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is a
book out
> there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.

Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has been
out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to pieces
and been tossed from every library which had a copy of it,
isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.

> You can't just go swapping letters.

Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he not?

> Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
raised to be
> tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
render
> everything already written extremely difficult to read if
it caught
> on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books had g
and h
> swapped?

Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may not
have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your own
(?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
happinefs".

> How about not adding to the confusion.

On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the confusion,
but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message, it
only makes sense for H to be tall like the other voiceless
characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung) implies.
L8r.



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rubik67 wrote:
> Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may not
> have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your own
> (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
> happinefs".

That's not an "f", it's a "long s". They are quite similar in aspect,
but the long s does not have a crossbar.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)



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--- In shavian@y..., Brion VIBBER <brion@p...> wrote:
> rubik67 wrote:
> > Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may
not
> > have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your
own
> > (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit
of
> > happinefs".
>
> That's not an "f", it's a "long s". They are quite similar
in aspect,
> but the long s does not have a crossbar.
>
> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Wow... now that was a quick response! :-) OK, that
explains "happinefs", but how about "purfuit"? Anyway, I
think the point is sufficiently clear, that being that
characters have changed shape before, but people can still
figure out what's being said. A couple of clues which would
make it obvious which is which, such as ng not being used at
the beginning of words, and h not being used at the end. If
all else fails, you could always reverse how you type those
characters, which makes as much sense, for example, as
typing j for "yew" and M for "ooze". :-) L8r.



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I've just uploaded my new font to the files area. It's only
12K long and includes versions for Mac and Windows. Please
check it out and let me know what you think. :-) L8r.




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