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From: Steve Bett
Date: 2002-10-03 20:53:44 #
Subject: [shavian] flap about d for t

Toggle Shavian
Bob,

I am not sure if the d/t substitution is confined to the U.S.
Henry Sweet writing in the 1890's has a transcription of RP that
substitutes d in many places we would traditionally expect t's.

See http://www.unifon.org/sweet-absurd.html

Steve

--- In shavian@y..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
most Americans pronounce the "tt" in "better" as what linguists call
>a "flap" -- a sound that is mostly like the sound of "d", but much
shorter than the d in "ado". This is actually nearly the same sound
as r in many languages,
> such as Spanish. So it is a different sound, but it is an
allophone of the /t/ phoneme in US English.

> Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it be written with anything other
than "tot".
> However, if we wanted this to be a phonetic alphabet, rather than
a phonemic
> one, we would have a separate symbol for the "flap" sound, as the
IPA does
> (the IPA symbol looks like an "r" without the little thing
sticking up in the
> upper left corner).
>
>
> > > I've always thought of it as "one letter, one phoneme". I
can't think
> > > of any occasion where someone has protested that the "tot"
character
> > is
> > > used in the middle of the word "better" in American
pronunciation
> > when
> > > the sound is quite different from either of the consonant
sounds in
> > > "tot". On an unrelated note, I should add that I haven't
taken a hard
> > > look at Quikscript, but IIRC it follows more or less the same
ideas as
> > > Shavian.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Bob Schmertz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> --
> Cheers,
> Bob Schmertz



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From: Steve Bett
Date: 2002-10-04 08:33:04 #
Subject: [shavian] phoneme frequency

Toggle Shavian
Craig,

I liked your website.

Regarding your question about character frequency.
I don't think there is anything unique about Shavian.
Any study of phoneme frequency will work.

There are at least three types of studies.
1. phoneme frequency in speech [chart available]
2. phoneme frequency in written text
3. phoneme frequency in the dictionary

These may be related but they are not the same.

The following is an analysis of a 60,000 word dictionary.
The one weakness is this study is that there is no schwa
phonogram. The schwa phoneme is distributed among the aeiou
phonemes.

>From the 59,000-werd truespel dictionary
The key to the 40 soundz of Eenglish (USA accent)
ID # sound % Sample words
v1 i 9.9% sit
v2 ee 5.0% see
v3 er 3.4% her
v4 u 3.3% up
v5 e 2.6% beg
v6 a 2.1% bad
v7 ae 2.1% sundae
v8 aa 1.9% aardvark,Saab
v9 ie 1.4% pie
v10 oe 1.4% toe
v11 oo 1.2% good
v12 ue 1.2% blue
v13 or 0.7% or
v14 au 0.4% auger
v15 air 0.4% fair
v16 ou 0.4% out
v17 oi 0.1% toil
k1 n,nn 7.8% in
k2 s,ss 6.8% sin
k3 t,tt 6.8% tip
k4 l,ll 5.4% lift
k5 k,kk 4.1% kid
k6 d,dd 4.0% did
k7 r,rr 3.9% rat
k8 z,zz 3.7% zap
k9 p,pp 3.3% pub
k10 m,mm 3.0% mist
k11 g,gg 2.6% good
k12 b,bb 1.7% bad
k13 f,ff 1.7% fair
k14 y,yy 1.6% yet
k15 sh,ssh 1.2% wish
k16 v,vv 1.2% van
k17 w,ww 1.2% wag
k18 j,jj 0.8% just
k19 h,hh 0.7% hat
k20 ch,cch 0.5% chin
k21 thh,tthh 0.3% thin
k22 th,tth 0.1% that
k23 zh,zzh 0.1% vision
100.0%
> >
Truespel Dikshinairee
toetool foeneemz = 432,058
toetool werdz = 59,252
foeneemz per werd = 7.3


Craig wrote:--------------------
> Has anyone done any sort of analysis of character frequency in
Shavian?




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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-04 18:11:24 #
Subject: [shavian] More flack about flap about d for t

Toggle Shavian
Hi Steve & Bob
Some variants of British English accept a glottal stop as well as the American
flap as equivalent to the t=sound.
You are probably familar with the old tongue twister.
"Would you like a bi'u bi'er bu'er? (bit of bitter butter)
I suggest we just consider these sounds as variant, less than ideal pronunciation of
the Shaw letter Tot, and get on with it,

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Is anyone really interested in expanding the Shaw Alphabet to handle Flaps and Glottal Stops?

___________________attached__________________________________

--- In shavian@y..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I am not sure if the d/t substitution is confined to the U.S.
> Henry Sweet writing in the 1890's has a transcription of RP that
> substitutes d in many places we would traditionally expect t's.
>
> See http://www.unifon.org/sweet-absurd.html
>
> Steve
>
> --- In shavian@y..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> most Americans pronounce the "tt" in "better" as what linguists call
> >a "flap" -- a sound that is mostly like the sound of "d", but much
> shorter than the d in "ado". This is actually nearly the same sound
> as r in many languages,
> > such as Spanish. So it is a different sound, but it is an
> allophone of the /t/ phoneme in US English.
>
> > Anyway, I'm not suggesting that it be written with anything other
> than "tot".
> > However, if we wanted this to be a phonetic alphabet, rather than
> a phonemic
> > one, we would have a separate symbol for the "flap" sound, as the
> IPA does
> > (the IPA symbol looks like an "r" without the little thing
> sticking up in the
> > upper left corner).
> >
> >
> > > > I've always thought of it as "one letter, one phoneme". I
> can't think
> > > > of any occasion where someone has protested that the "tot"
> character
> > > is
> > > > used in the middle of the word "better" in American
> pronunciation
> > > when
> > > > the sound is quite different from either of the consonant
> sounds in
> > > > "tot". On an unrelated note, I should add that I haven't
> taken a hard
> > > > look at Quikscript, but IIRC it follows more or less the same
> ideas as
> > > > Shavian.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Bob Schmertz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Bob Schmertz



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From: Newton, Philip
Date: 2002-10-04 18:14:42 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] More flack about flap about d for t

Toggle Shavian
paul vandenbrink wrote:
> P.S. Is anyone really interested in expanding the Shaw
> Alphabet to handle Flaps and Glottal Stops?

I think the Shaw Alphabet should handle (more or less) English *phonemes*,
not English *phones*. So if a flap or a glottal stop is simply an allophone
of /t/ in a certain position, you should use the same letter for it. (Though
I like the way that [@] and [V] are represented with two different letters,
enabling us to differentiate stressed from unstressed syllables sometimes.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-04 18:16:28 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: 40 Years Onwards - the Alphabet Lives

Toggle Shavian
Hi Star
Starting a pool to guess the name of his book?
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Alright, I'm taking bets...
>
> :)
>
> --Star
>
> > > Hi Rubik
> > > What is the name of book you are transliterating into
> > the Shaw
> > Alphabet?
> >
> > Sorry, but I'd like to keep that info top secret for now.
> > All I can
> > really say is that the author has a serious cult
> > following.
>
>
> =====
> "You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
> --Julius, Planet of the Apes
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com



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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-04 18:31:51 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: phoneme frequency

Toggle Shavian
Hi Steve

There are a few other odd weaknesses. I don't know that they're
that significant.
the dictionary doesn't appear to differentiate betwween n and ng.
Also ar as in the word "car" seems to be missing in your frequency list.
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@y..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> Craig,
>
> I liked your website.
>
> Regarding your question about character frequency.
> I don't think there is anything unique about Shavian.
> Any study of phoneme frequency will work.
>
> There are at least three types of studies.
> 1. phoneme frequency in speech [chart available]
> 2. phoneme frequency in written text
> 3. phoneme frequency in the dictionary
>
> These may be related but they are not the same.
>
> The following is an analysis of a 60,000 word dictionary.
> The one weakness is this study is that there is no schwa
> phonogram. The schwa phoneme is distributed among the aeiou
> phonemes.




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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-10-05 07:18:06 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: 40 Years Onwards - the Alphabet Lives

Toggle Shavian
Well, how many books out there have a cult following?

Dracula, Fraknestein, The Rubayat, Harry Potter, Witchworld
series by Andre Norton (local celeb), Pern books by Anne
McCaffery, Stephen King....

Hmmm...

--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> Starting a pool to guess the name of his book?
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> --- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > Alright, I'm taking bets...
> >
> > :)
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > > > Hi Rubik
> > > > What is the name of book you are transliterating
> into
> > > the Shaw
> > > Alphabet?
> > >
> > > Sorry, but I'd like to keep that info top secret for
> now.
> > > All I can
> > > really say is that the author has a serious cult
> > > following.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
> > --Julius, Planet of the Apes
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>


=====
"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
--Julius, Planet of the Apes

__________________________________________________
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From: Dennis Falk
Date: 2002-10-05 07:25:28 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: 40 Years Onwards - the Alphabet Lives

Toggle Shavian
On 10/4/2002 at 11:17 PM Star Raven wrote:

>Well, how many books out there have a cult following?
>
>Dracula, Fraknestein, The Rubayat, Harry Potter, Witchworld
>series by Andre Norton (local celeb), Pern books by Anne
>McCaffery, Stephen King....
>
>Hmmm...

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? :)

D.M.Falk





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From: Star Raven
Date: 2002-10-05 18:36:38 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: 40 Years Onwards - the Alphabet Lives

Toggle Shavian
Good one!

--Star

--- Dennis Falk <quozl1@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/4/2002 at 11:17 PM Star Raven wrote:
>
> >Well, how many books out there have a cult following?
> >
> >Dracula, Fraknestein, The Rubayat, Harry Potter,
> Witchworld
> >series by Andre Norton (local celeb), Pern books by Anne
> >McCaffery, Stephen King....
> >
> >Hmmm...
>
> Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? :)
>
> D.M.Falk
>
>
>
>


=====
"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
--Julius, Planet of the Apes

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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2002-10-06 16:57:16 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: More flack about flap about d for t

Toggle Shavian
Hi Philip
Thanks for your concurrence.
Later in your note, You lost me.
What are [@] and [V] are represented with two different letters,
which enable us to differentiate stressed from unstressed syllables?
Quickscript, Maybe.
Anyway,
I am not so concerned to differentiate stressed from unstressed syllables.
Syllable stress varies quite a bit from sentence to sentence.
For example to indicate if a word is in a Noun or Verb aspect.
Or to differentiate 2 different words (pre-formed, preform, re-sign, re-sign)
I'd be happy to just know the syllable boundaries, where one syllable ends
and the next on begins.
That information would help my pronunciation more than knowing about stress..
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@y..., "Newton, Philip" <philip.newton@d...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > P.S. Is anyone really interested in expanding the Shaw
> > Alphabet to handle Flaps and Glottal Stops?
>
> I think the Shaw Alphabet should handle (more or less) English *phonemes*,
> not English *phones*. So if a flap or a glottal stop is simply an allophone
> of /t/ in a certain position, you should use the same letter for it. (Though
> I like the way that [@] and [V] are represented with two different letters,
> enabling us to differentiate stressed from unstressed syllables sometimes.)
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
> All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .